FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

Honestly, while this KINDA does work agreed, you’re running into an issue where just shifting into moonkin form will likely just be better. Infinite Starfall is nuts. The other pain is that Petrus Ring and Exploding Roots has a lot of anti-synergy. You’re better off just leaving everything rooted.

I’ve tried it. This build also doesn’t handle Elites very well, but is generally alright. Spending your time just shapeshifting loses its luster really fast though.

I do find it funny that you initially state that you don’t like having a heal in your rotation because it felt weird, but then immediately go to talking about why it sucks to lose that heal. The output is the same. The gameplay feels worse, and we have lost the heal.

I’m of the camp that likes the current Bloodtalons iteration, but I’m working on finding a better solution if it HAS to happen (I prefer it wouldn’t). This current one is bad.


I made a point to say I like having self-heals, just not as a GCD requirement in our DPS rotation.


I’m referring mostly to the specifics of how “Our HP only goes down now” and how you said the “Self healing in the rotation makes a difference”.

Like I get it, the idea of having a heal as part of your DPS rotation felt “Weird” (Personally that was part of the draw for me. I’m a druid not a rogue), what difference does it make?

You press buttons to do more damage. RTB, Slice&Dice, Stormkeeper, the list goes on. These are all buttons you press to burn resources that then turn around and give you a damage payoff.

Ours was just a heal, which made sense considering we are Druids and our Hybrid/Healing nature.

IDK. I get the argument even though I don’t agree. I’m just annoyed that all the complaining about the situation has just led to the outcome where we have a new iteration that feels worse, is not fun, and also guts some of our natural self-sustain that we used to just have for free. Might not seem like a huge deal in raids/dungeons because you have a healer, but I can’t even begin to count how many times just having BT baked in has saved me or allowed me to play more risky with little cost to my DPS(if not positive gain because I didn’t need to back off).


I think we need something to supplement the fact that we have lost survivability in our rotation, is all!


Part of a reason why I didn’t like tying a standard healing ability into our DPS rotation was that it basically acted as a passive (please read my whole post before replying). Regrowth could certainly be used strategically by smart druids; it has its place in raids, dungeons, and most of all questing. However, the majority of the time it was used to increase DPS. The core component of Regrowth, very reason it exists, was often ignored to boost its opposite effect.
As for the changes: I like the move to casting abilities in sequence. They don’t have the right moves setup, but its something that can be improved. In terms of survivability, I would like to see players be encouraged to shapeshift for healing. Something like a shorter cast time on heals the first time a druid heals, with extra healing on self. Thats a better fit for druid in my eyes. Casting a heal as a feral cat seems like nonsense.


Pred Swiftness has been a pretty core part of Feral for a very long time. It even used to be usable on Cyclone. We mass entangle and Root as cat. You can rebirth in bear form. Why is casting a heal in cat for nonsense?

You are correct. The “Core” component of regrowth was often ignored in DPS rotations. Druids are all about versatility and multi-use. You had a spell that had multiple uses. You could either use it to increase your DPS and stay in cat, but you could drop form and spam it to heal if you needed. The talent added versatility to our kit. That’s kinda the entire point of the talent.

Consider things like Luffa/Wild Fleshrending over the last two xpacs. The core component of thrash (The reason it exists is AoE) was ignored and it was just used to dump more ST damage? That’s good game design, you create interesting dynamics/interactions.

Instead the interesting parts are getting cut for “Press buttons, do damage” like every other class.


Balance Druid general and Covenant ability feedback.

Necrolord Covenant:
Signature ability: Fleshcraft feels useful from a single player perspective and in Torghast to a point, but it can be hard to charge it up to any real strength without first killing an elite aka the very kind of mob you’d want to have the shield to fight. In m+ I could see it being used between packs on some weeks, but as far as bosses and raid content goes, I can’t see ever justifying such a long channel time for a 20% shield that any decent hit will eliminate.

The only alternative I can think of to make this ability viable to use while IN combat would be to perhaps make a portion (10-20%) of the shield instant cast and then the channel adds 5-10% per second over a 3+ second channel period. At least then, without needing a body, you could channel a useable shield during boss downtime or have a quick, one shot shield at the cost of a global or two.

Class ability: Adaptive Swarm feels useful overall and there certainly seems to be some decent skill flexibility in mixing it with heals and trying to carry it from one pack to another. It definitely feels like a relatively powerful single target ability, even more so when combined with Stellar Flare, that is worth pressing when possible.

I only have a couple of minor complaints with the ability so far - listed in order of importance. First, I would like to see it favor jumping to damageable targets when in Balance spec or even see it have a fixed order of enemy > friendly > enemy when targets are available. Secondly, it feels kind of strange/clunky to have it locked at a range of 40 yards when almost every other Balance ability - even including Resto Affinity abilities - have a range of 45 yards. Third and definitely least important, the ability feels kind of like maintaining a third/fourth dot rather than a special cooldown/unique ability. I don’t see it being anything more than a simple fire and forget single target dps tool in raid and boss content. I think removing it from the GCD or adding some kind of effectiveness increase after each bounce would add some depth to how it is used, but leaving it as a third/fourth dot - bland as it feels - still leaves it as a worthy ability to have. Tl;dr, worth using, but not really special - a fire and forget dot.

Kyrian Covenant:
Signature ability: Summon Steward feels very different from the other three Signature abilities. Where Venthyr and Night Fae offer mobility/utility and Necrolord offers defense, Summon Steward doesn’t seem to add anything at all. It’s basically a novelty without the handful of powers in Torghast that turn the potion it offers into a powerful heal/damage increase. The services it offers once per day are entirely non-combat and easily replaced by items/mounts/toys. The potion it offers is likely to only be useful in very niche situations where the dispel has value, otherwise it will be replaced by regular health potions.

To bring it in the same line and spirit of the other Signature abilities, I would draw from Torghast’s alterations to the ability. Having the steward provide flat movement speed %, be it the 35% from Torghast or something lower, while it is out or having it give buffs like leech and/or avoidance % while out would make it feel much more like an actual utility. Outside of adapting Torghast powers, other options could be to even keep it as just the non-combat + potion and don’t have the potion share cooldown with any other potion or make the potion into a stronger heal/hot to make you want to take it as a real additional defensive option.

Class ability: Kindred Spirits/Empower Bond feels, frankly, like not having a class ability at all. Solo it doesn’t feel worth pressing and, honestly, feels like a mistake to use. Either you press it then incarnation/celestial alignment, at which point you are left with 6-7 seconds thanks to both cooldowns being on the GCD, or you press incarnation/celestial alignment and then Empower Bond therefor clipping as much as a full cast or 1-2 Starsurges of time off of your main cooldown. Using it outside of Incarnation/CA isn’t worth mentioning since you could neither build any real power on it or really even use the power of the ability without that major cooldown.

In that 6-7 seconds (assuming you used it immediately prior to incarn/CA) you can get a couple of casts off and a Starsurge or two. Even with three critical Starsurges and a critical Wrath/Starfire (likely the best you could fit in that duration) you get intellect equal to somewhere between 1 and a half to 2 and a half times your weapon(s). Not only is the intellect gain low, it doesn’t matter because, by the time you’ve ramped it up to a viable strength, it goes away from timing out. The only ability that meaningfully increases Empower Bond (Starsurge) is also the only ability that realistically gains meaningful power from its buff.

Moving on to group play, I still don’t see how it can be of any real value as even the most powerful burst dps aren’t going to be empowered by you enough to have more than 1 or 2 meaningfully powered up casts in the short duration of the buff. Even with empowering another player, the short duration still removes the usefulness as the partner you are empowering would only get 2 or 3 seconds of significant buff as you would spend around 7 of the 10 seconds using Empower Bond > Incarn/CA > Starsurge x 3. None of which mentions the fact that coordinating usage of this ability with another dps in a way that is impactful would be too difficult to be a viable option.

I purpose the following solution to make the ability worth pressing and flexible skill wise. Keep the way it works in the sense of empowering the bond and having damage grant primary stat (maybe with a small 10-20% increase to the stat gain, but detailed balancing is another issue entirely). However, don’t grant the primary stat as it is built up. Instead, have a 10 second window when you first “Empower the bond” where damage done determines how much primary stat you are going to gain without immediately giving you the stat (a ramp up window). After the 10 second ramp up window closes, gain the full primary stat increase that was built up in the ramp up window as a buff for 10 additional seconds (a dps window). This would provide a meaningful buff that you could actually make use of instead of spending the entire duration of the ability ramping it up to something worth while. 10 seconds to build stats followed by 10 seconds to use them. You could even have the primary stat decay slightly across the 10 second dps window if the ability seemed too strong and still have it feel like gaining a real buff.

I think this solution adds a lot of options for how the ability can be used and makes it actually feel like a cooldown worth pressing. Solo with this version, a moonkin would still only get limited ramp up due to the ability GCD stacking with incarn/CA, but you could reach a decent level of stat gain and still have a 10 second window to use it with a handful of casts and Starsurges - a number of casts that could reach impactful amounts in skilled hands. Grouped with this version, a moonkin would actually be incentivized to try and empower the bond for another player as, combined properly with a full 7 seconds of incarn/CA, you could generate a significant buff going into their cooldown(s) without damaging your own dps (aside from losing Empower Bond itself). In grouped content, this version of the ability requires only the coordination of using it immediately prior to the other player’s cooldown(s) rather than having to try and time it so the last 1-3 seconds, where the stat gain is reasonable, falls during a major casting point of their cooldown. This version also gives them time to notice you building a buff for them and allows them to plan for the incoming stat gain, further reducing the coordination requirements without diminishing the skill cap of coordinating it exceptionally well.

Night Fae Covenant:
Signature ability: Soulshape is certainly cool and will likely have many situational uses for a lot of classes/specs. It feels good for a movement ability and I’m interested to see where it can be used to creatively avoid/bypass mechanics in unique situations. It didn’t seem explicitly needed with all the movement options a druid already has, but I wouldn’t really put it below the other Signature abilities in the utility it adds.

Class ability: Convoke the Spirits feels awful. Spamming Moonfire is virtually worthless and can make refreshing your dots down the line more awkward since Sunfire (and Stellar Flare if you have that) end up completely off-sync with Moonfire’s duration. Spamming Wrath gives Astral Power and decent damage, but only really helps if you use this during solar eclipse/incarn/CA. Any other ability cast is really just worthless at best and outright dangerous if options like thrash encourage a moonkin into melee range. Combine all of that with the fact that it’s complete luck of the draw and the ability seems like a seriously bad option to choose as Balance.

My purposed solution to the ability’s issues comes in three parts. First, allow shifting between forms freely during the channel. Second, instead of having it “favor your current specialization” have the ability ONLY cast things related to your current form. Third, replace Moonfire with Starfire. This version would allow you to use it to push either eclipse and benefit from either/both eclipses, would not cause awkward refreshes of Moonfire and would give you a real dps gain even if you didn’t get the exact chain of casts you wanted. It would also allow for the versatility and skill flexibility that comes with form dancing to force bear/cat/resto abilities.

Venthyr Covenant:
Signature ability: Door of Shadows is a wonderful movement utility to have - primarily due to its ability to change levels. I don’t mind the cast time and it has a healthy range. Nothing but praise for this ability.

Class ability: Ravenous Frenzy is best summed up by saying; I will, without any doubt, pick Venthyr on my druid if this ability goes live as it currently stands - regardless of Signature ability/story/cosmetic content. This ability feels like an extremely powerful second incarn/CA that is also versatile enough to help with self healing. It doesn’t even feel bad using it in AoE situations where I’m just dotting everything and letting the rapid growth of haste and damage rot it all down. The negative edge of idling reminds me of the joyous rush of early Legion surrender to madness and, somewhat surprisingly, feels very forgiving. I’m not afraid of the ability, but it’s also not just a bland cooldown that you press and forget like Necrolord. I also love the fact that things off the GCD like Barkskin and Solar Beam add stacks to it, encouraging you to try and weave those in for the extra 4%. Throw in that things like changing form, movement abilities and spamming dots increase stacks and it even feels like being forced to move during a mechanic or losing uptime for some other reason isn’t harming your dps output as much as normal while this ability is active. Even GCD stacking it with incarn/CA doesn’t feel as bad as GCD stacking normally does since incarn/CA grants a stack. This ability is absolutely amazing in every way as it currently stands.

General Balance Feedback:
There’s limited ability to really test the strength/role of the class at the moment so I just have a couple of limited remarks as to the changes to Balance/Druid. I only take one issue so far with the Eclipse system and that is in starting packs of mobs (or even combat with a single mob). Having to either do three long cleave casts on a single target to start the single target focused Eclipse or three single target casts on one mob in a group to start doing proper AoE feels awful. It would feel much better and be much more in line with the ramp up/control of other classes if Eclipse reset to 1 cast of either Wrath or Starfire to trigger an Eclipse whenever you exit combat. This would give a lot more control over whether we are doing AoE or single target focused dps from pack-to-pack without compromising the dance between Eclipses in combat.

Secondly, Starfall feels awkwardly expensive at 50 Astral Power, especially with Starsurge being 30. I think having Starfall at around 40 would feel a lot better and, since you can’t gain by casting several on top of each other anymore, I don’t see how it’d be an issue to have it cheaper. Otherwise, Balance Druid feels good so far. The addition of a lot of CC is wonderful and the largely familiar talent tree already looks to have many possible interesting interactions with the new Eclipse system and Covenant abilities.


I have been playing Balance Druid since the end of Vanilla, fully embracing the specialization in TBC and have played it every expansion. I’ve been following the changes for Balance since Alpha went live and thankfully was able to get my hands on testing it. I have a few concerns regarding The Balance Druid’s talent tree, their “unpruning”, and the Eclipse mechanic in a PVE perspective for Alpha Build 34615.

The Talent Tree

Level 15 Row (Astral Power Generation):
Nature’s Balance feels fine. It still feels the same and fills that role of passively gaining Astral Power in combat freely. Warrior of Elune however, doesn’t feel great. I never really understood the purpose of this talent. It just isn’t impactful enough to use in my opinion. Force of Nature still has its defined purpose and that’s great.

Suggestion: Rework Warrior of Elune to a more desirable talent. The new Eclipse mechanic just makes this talent feel extremely awkward in its current state. Some possible replacements could be:

  • Arcane Pulsar from Battle for Azeroth Azerite Armor.

  • Lunar Eclipse causes Starfire to deal its full damage to all enemies and generates additional Astral Power.

Level 25 Row (Movement):
Tiger Dash, Renewal, and Wild Charge all have unique roles for Druid movement and they feel fine. Wild Charge may slightly pull ahead in most situations, but that’s fine.

Level 30 Row (Affinity Utility Row):
I really enjoy this row. This row allows us to choose what we think is best suited for the situation we need them for. It’s a great row. And the addition of Maim, Incapacitating Roar, and Ursol’s Vortex is a great addition to shapeshift utility.

Level 35 Row (Utility Row):
This row has sparked a couple of concerns for me. We are gaining too much utility at this point. With Typhoon baseline, we get the ability to Mass Root or Mighty Bash, in addition with the Affinity crowd control and now Cyclone. So, we end up having 6 ways to control an enemy (Entangling Roots, Typhoon, Mighty Bash or Mass Entanglement, Cyclone, Ursol’s Vortex/Maim/Incapacitating Roar, and Hibernate) up from 3 from Battle for Azeroth (Entangling Roots, Hibernate, Typhoon). Heart of the Wild is just something that should be a passive and reworked. Its current state is too convoluted for what it is.

Suggestion: I would prefer this row to replace Typhoon still. Having the player choose which crowd control they prefer or need, makes the decision feel more powerful than having access to all of them at once. I also suggest changing Heart of the Wild. It just doesn’t fit with how World of Warcraft plays today and feels extremely weird to have a talent in one row, affect an entirely different row of talents. Some possible replacements for Heart of the Wild could be:

  • Heart of the Wild gives Typhoon a second charge.
  • Heart of the Wild causes Typhoon’s cooldown to be reduced by 5 seconds per target hit.

Or just re-add Typhoon back in Heart of the Wild’s place and make Heart of the Wild a Druid baseline ability. It just feels odd to have this in the talent tree.

Level 40 Row (Damage):
Soul of the Forest feels incomplete. It will probably continue to change as Eclipse is iterated through the Alpha. But, right now Soul of the Forest only provides additional damage inside an Eclipse window. Whereas the other two talents provide damage all the time. Starlord and Incarnation: Chosen of Elune still remain as iconic Balance Druid talents that fill their niche roles.

Suggestion: I think Soul of the Forest should retain a passive modifier, including the Eclipse modifier. Maybe by returning the Astral Power cost reduction on Starfall.

Level 45 Row (AOE/Cleave):
As mentioned earlier in this thread, my major concern is that Stellar Drift and Twin Moons are both very valuable, but Twin Moons always pulls ahead due to the usefulness of Moonfire hitting a second target being more valuable than casting and moving under Starfall in almost any situation. Stellar Flare is always reliable for spread cleave, so that’s fine.

Suggestion: Twin Moons’ Moonfire cleave utility should be baseline and in its place a talent that still focuses on enhancing cleave in some way. Some possible talent replacements:

  • Moonfire hitting an additional target. (Total 3)
  • Starfire extends Starfall’s duration
  • Casting Starfall causes the next Starsurge to explode around the target.

Level 50 Row (Damaging Resource Generator):
I’m glad to see the Shooting Stars adjustment from LIVE. It remained too dominant. That being said, New Moon could see some love. Fury of Elune seems to be in a great spot for its iconic use.

Suggestion: Have New Moon’s recharge time scale with haste.

The Great Unpruning
I kind of briefly hinted at my opinion above about the unpruning of abilities. I think abilities that require a shapeshifted form coming back are fine. Such as additional cat form abilities and bear for abilities. But I don’t think we need every crowd control ability available to the Druid. Each Druid specialization should have its strength in utility. I mentioned above that we have 6 ways to crowd control a mob in Shadowlands, up from 3 from Battle for Azeroth. It speaks for itself.

Stampeding Roar should remain a Feral and Guardian Druid strength. And Cyclone just feels like it should remain as a PVP talent or just be removed from the game. Its too unique, and that could lead to dangerous paths of being too powerful in a PVE situation.

The Eclipse Mechanic
I am not very excited about this new iteration of Eclipse for Shadowlands. The idea that we have to cast Starfire three times to do more single target damage, or cast Wrath three times to do more aoe damage just feels completely bad.

The idea of an eclipse system sounds amazing. Using the sun and moon to enhance your abilities. But the current state of it is really bad for the specialization as a whole. Someone above mentioned that with this current iteration of Eclipse, the game is telling us how to play again. I casted three Wraths, now the game is telling me to cast nothing but Starfires for 10-13 seconds. It’s not what I would call a thrilling rotational enhancement.

The effects of the Eclipse are fine. Its how you enter the Eclipse and its self-locking mechanism that deter me from it. What I mean by self-locking mechanism is that I’m forced to enter a Solar Eclipse if I want to return to a Lunar Eclipse.

Another problem I have with the Eclipse system is how our mastery is tied to it. So our mastery is only effective…some of the time? Balance may need a slight damage modifier from our mastery (like retail) while not under an Eclipse to help smooth out “ramp windows”.

A possible solution to the Eclipse mechanic would be to not restrict its proc opportunities to 2 spells (Wrath and Starfire). Have Starsurge be able to proc a random eclipse. Or make casting Starfall extend Starfall while under any Eclipse.

Edit: I’ve tweaked some of my input regarding the Eclipse System as I’ve gotten to experiment with it more than just within quest combat recently.

Thank you for reading!


Convoke the Spirits–in this build or an upcoming build:
–Convoke will more strongly favor current-spec abilities than it currently does
–Convoke will be more willing to use the same ability many times within a single activation
–Convoke will not use Thrash if nothing is in range
–In Feral spec, it will more strongly favor Shred over Thrash
–Dodging will work during the channel

Also, this isn’t spelled out, but “current specialization” will use your current Heart of the Wild if you have it active.

A dilemma with this ability is that, on one hand, it’s cooler if it does a wide mix of Druid things. Its power can come from the main-role spells you’re gaining, while some off-role spells contribute flavor, utility, and visual presence. But on the other, reading it can give an expectation of, say, 16 damage spells in a row, which is let down when you get something much less. We’re going to tinker with the mix somewhat to find a better balance here.


I still think form specific is absolutely the way to go with Convoke the Spirits. That way you get the mix of druid things, and can do off-role under their own power. Just food for thought.


I personally at least as a Balance druid would like to see Convoke the Spirits first try to spread moonfire to the 16 closest targets, and if they have it on them, then try to add sunfire, after that. Having it act akin to a DoT based AoE seems like it be super useful.

Thrash, Rake, and Shred should only ever proc in bear or cat forms. A moonkin or base PC doing any of those is just silly to see.

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Having an auto cast button seems to be more trouble than its worth. Is there anyway we could record the sequence of abilities prior to casting it? Something like Alter Time, but for abilities cast.


I agree with the remarks made about the Balance druid throughout this forum. The eclipse system just doesn’t feel great IMO. I recently spoke to a few players about possible solutions. This was not my original idea, but when I heard it… I felt it was too good not to share… Maybe after entering an eclipse, you were able to cast a “signature eclipse” ability upon entering that eclipse. I believe the conversation led to something similar to the “New Moon” artifact ability from legion. Even though it’s a talent on live and seems to be a talent for Shadowlands… Maybe instead implement a piece of that ability into the eclipse rotation and once you align both with Celestial Alignment, maybe it becomes both spells combined? Just an idea. I feel that might help spice up the spec a bit more. It just feels BLEH right now from spamming Wrath and Starfire.

To be clear I would like to keep the eclipse’s, but maybe redone a bit. I’d like more control over what eclipse I’m going in, rather going back and forth playing ping pong with them. Most casters have signature AOE and ST spells. This feels like you’re forcing Boomkin players to use AOE when not needed and vice versa. Just feels strange esp when Starfire has a longer cast time than wrath.


But we dont need an additional spell since the whole point of the eclipse system is to empower the spells we have

Could be worse, could be arcane mage and basically cast 2-3 spells, where we have at least 5

We do have a form of control, one that is much better than launch alpha, and it is still much similar to the classic balance druid rotation we had many years ago. You start combat and from there you can pick what you want to start with and then you just go from there. It would break the whole point if you could just only empower what you wanted: Wrath during solo bosses or Lunar during AoE.

It’s not so much that we are being forced to use an AoE spell, many classes have moves that affect AoE that are a part of their basic rotation, and Lunar strike has always had a longer cast time than Wrath because of the AoE hit and it also deals more damage than Wrath


I think this also touches on an interesting dilemma as well. You’re right. On first read to me, this felt like the ‘coolest’ of the Druid abilities, which is great. The Night Fae and Druids thematically SHOULD fit together, so the idea of being able to go overdrive with Nature was awesome at first glance.

This works mostly as expected in a ST situation. In an AoE situation, it becomes very Feast or Famine. It may seem that you want Thrash to go off a bunch in an AoE situation, but honestly not really. The ST portion of thrash is pretty negligible and you really only want it going off once.

What it boils down to is this kind of set of bullet points:

  • In a single target situation, if Moonfire/rake roll a bunch of times, suddenly you’ve literally done nothing, maybe even screwed up some of your cycles.

  • In an AoE situation the spell feels even worse. Suddenly you’re hoping for dots to get as spread out as possible. If a bunch of wraiths/shreds get dumped into the same target its just annoying.

  • In a different, less relevant, vein. In Bear form it is inconsistent as a defensive ability and a DPS ability. It really just reads “Gain 0-8 stacks of Ironfur(I’ve gotten procs where it just spammed thrash and gave me one stack) and do some AoE damage” It just doesn’t feel good to press. In resto I understand having the HoTs get spread out, but either replace Ironfur with Mangle or add some consistency to the defensive aspect of this spell for Bears.

“Appropriate Targets” just doesn’t feel “Appropriate” sometimes. This spell also has more throughput as Balance because shred/rake just won’t go off if you aren’t in melee range like Wraith/Moonfire will for Feral.

I understand the ‘weighting’ system is supposed to help mitigate that, but its yet ANOTHER place where Feral seems like its being forgotten in favor of Balance spec design.

TL:DR; even 16 damage spells in a row doesn’t matter if they are all Moonfire.

I would like to see some weighting where ‘appropriate target’ factors in whether the target has a DoT on it already or not.

To keep the flavor of the spell, I am actually not advocating for having Wraith/Moonfire work only in their respective forms. I think that Shred/Rake should have their range requirements removed during the spell and allow it to apply them anywhere.

If there are say 4 targets infront of me and I am in Balance at max range, after all 16 spells have cast, all 4 should have a fresh moonfire on them, one or two should have rake, and the rest should be Wraith/Shred/etc.

EDIT: I went and started doing Ardenweald as Feral after writing this post. I will say I jumped the gun a little on this feedback. It seems with the changes that the spell is context sensitive to targets around you which makes it much more of an attractive spell. I can’t tell exactly how things are weighted, but it will prefer applying DoTs/Refreshing low DoTs over the ST spells, and will cast Thrash more if there are more targets around you.

With 3 targets, all of them ended up with Moonfire/Rake and it used thrash more than against a single target. WIth 8 targets, it literally just spammed Thrash.

I WILL say that having thrash in there just feels bad still on its own. Replace it with either Mangle or Swipe?


I’m just here to say that after getting used to it, Bloodtalons feels great. Truly. I don’t know if this is the best possible iteration it’s going to see, but I found myself raiding on retail this weekend and thinking, “I miss the other Bloodtalons.” What a delight it was to realize “the other Bloodtalons” is not something I’ve lost, but something I’ll be gaining.

The fact that I see feedback posted here and then, a week later, those exact changes made in-game is phenomenal. I see the hard work y’all are doing and I hope it’s the same for all specs and classes. (In particular, Guardian druids) Thank you!


I’m not a fan of eclipses coming back, especially for pvp, I think the current iteration is much better for a fluid rotation. Also was Ironfeather Armor honor talent removed on purpose? Not sure why we’re losing things during an unpruning, I was excited to be able to play that with cyclone baseline.


Just also echoing that I dislike the eclipse system returning after trying it out. It may be that the reward/payoff for going in to an eclipse isn’t quite there yet but I prefer the burst empowerment of BFA over that of cycling between two states in Shadowlands.

Cycling is tactical at first but turns in to an awkward restriction as repetition sets in. At least in BFA I can essentially load my gun and go in blastin’. In Shadowlands I feel like I have to find the bullets, load the correct bullet, be locked in to that type of bullet and then I can start blastin’.

I get that eclipse may also make sense thematically but even that is a symptom of Night Elf / Moonkin dominance in the spec being applied universally. If anything the Thronspeakers connecting more with growth/decay, rather than eclipses/astrology, have shown a different kind of balance that doesn’t fit the current narrative.

If the Eclipse theme/lore is a barrier then I just wanted to highlight that the spec itself may need an identity audit; so please do go wild and don’t feel restricted. Currently it feels ever more like a “galaxy mage” and has drifted away from its master of nature (hurricane, bursting seeds, rapid growth…etc) roots.

“Times change” (#Garrosh_Hellscream voice) with the introduction of more races and cultures as well (Kul’Tiran and Zandalari). This may be an opportunity to grow the identity of the spec while not being beholden to systems of old.


Thanks for all the feedback on Convoke the Spirits. It will have a further update in an upcoming build, focused on being oriented more around shapeshift forms, and including higher-value spells associated with each particular form.

Most importantly, the spell list is redesigned. It is no longer the same in every form.
–Spells included in every form: Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Rake, Thrash
–Caster form only: Wild Growth, Swiftmend
–Cat form only: Ferocious Bite, Shred, Tiger’s Fury
–Bear form only: Mangle, Ironfur
–Moonkin form only: Starsurge, Starfall

When used in any given form, spells assocatied with that form’s role are strongly favored.
Starsurge, Starfall, and Ferocious Bite don’t cost resources. Swiftmend doesn’t remove a HoT. Ferocious Bite does maximum damage. Self-buffs that don’t stack (Tiger’s Fury, Starfall) won’t overwrite themselves.

A bit of discussion about this ability–one dilemma with it is that while it actually chooses abilities somewhat smartly, it can’t claim to do so perfectly smartly. So the tooltip doesn’t promise to always choose the optimal ability, but in reality it does much better than random chance. Some things that were true in prior iterations, and still true now:
–Spells that apply a DoT or HoT are favored on targets that don’t already have it, and generally won’t reapply to targets that do (some exception for Wild Growth).
–It won’t aggro new creatures that aren’t in combat
–It won’t break CC
–Heals will be more favored relative to other spells if there are lower-HP targets
–Thrash is used more often in Bear Form than in Cat Form

As always, let us know how it feels on alpha.