FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

The biggest mechanic we want to avoid is “Empowerment” because it’s directly related to Astral Power generation. I don’t feel there is anything particularly exciting about making your fillers hit harder when they’re already getting stronger via Eclipse.

One thing I feel suggestions should lean towards is shuffling talents around. For example, are you really interested in Stellar Flare? What if we put Shooting Stars on the same row as Stellar Drift and Twin Moons?

The core of Eclipse is most likely staying as it is (it’s a tested mechanic that has seen plenty of success in various iterations.)So, we should be looking for ways to improve interactions with regards to Astral Power. There is some feedback that players don’t know when to Starsurge, and they’d like it to be simpler… however, I feel that “making it simpler” would remove the best part of Eclipse – Resource Pooling. Starsurge/Eclipse feels incredible when you have 90+ AP ready to dump the second you gain Eclipse. If there are sore points getting to that point, by all means we want that feedback posted, but we really should keep resource pooling as a core playstyle regardless of your talent builds.

This begins to fall into the trap that made Starfall in BFA so awful. Starsurge and Starfall were pretty balanced at one point, but Blizzard made too many interactions with Starsurge. Starsurge eventually out-scaled Starfall so severely it made Starfall not worth casting anymore. We should find mechanics that can have an equivalent effect for both Starsurge and Starfall, but still fall within their preferred usage.

5 Likes

Other round of feedback:

Eclipse Feedback:

  • Astral damage double-dipping is fun for now, but I seriously doubt it’ll be fun playing around a 3min cooldown for the next 2 years. It’s just not what Balance is about.
  • Sore point is not being able to be in Eclipse reliably.
  • RNG is RNG and we don’t want to remove the RNG element, but we do feel we want some respite.

Suggestion: (New ability) Full Moon:

  • Cast time: 3sec (+ Haste)
  • School: Astral
  • Cooldown: 60sec.
  • Damage: 25% Stronger than Starsurge.
  • Effect 1: Generates 20 Astral Power.
  • Effect 2: Places the druid into Eclipse. (Go into the Eclipse with the shortest remaining ICD. Prefers Lunar if ICDs are the same.).
  • Effect 3: Always benefits from Mastery: Total Eclipse even while not in an Eclipse state.

If the Full Moon idea is implemented:

  • BLP on Eclipse proc rate should be a “stack the deck” where the deck size is 5.

Why?

  • Astral damage double-dipping is a gimmick and feels cheesy. Fun for now, but maybe not down the line.
  • RNG is fine, but being able to force Eclipse feels needed.
  • Stack the Deck BLP ensures there are no extreme losers.

Talents (Removal/Change):

  • Heart of the Wild should not be on the global cooldown. (All 90sec+ cooldowns which deal no damage should be off the GCD.)
  • Stellar Flare should be removed.
  • New Moon should be removed.

Why?

  • Stellar Flare has not been interesting for many expansions now. Having your gimmick tied to CA/INC feels bad and it’s time for something new.
  • New Moon and Half Moon are not interesting. Full Moon is cool, but these two spells just don’t offer interesting gameplay. They are in the way of the cool stuff.

Talents (Suggestions):

Tidal Force:

  • Full Moon also activates Starfall at no cost.
  • Replaces Stellar Flare In T45 row.

Dreamweaver:

  • Starsurge increases the damage of your next Wrath or Starfire by 40%. Does not stack.
  • Replaces Starlord in T40 row.
  • Why? :: Adds complexity to the base rotation. Still easy, but breaks the monotony of the spellcasts in Eclipse.

Starlord:

  • Lasts until Eclipse is triggered.
  • Replaces New Moon in T50 row.
  • Why? :: If moved to T50, this helps with Incarnation interactions. Also, it really fits the Eclipse mechanic nicely, especially while fishing for Eclipse procs.

Shooting Stars:

  • Diminishing Returns removed.
  • Generates 1 Astral Power per proc. If Shooting Stars is a critical strike, generate an additional 1 Astral Power.
  • Increase damage by 40%.
  • Why? :: There’s a big opportunity cost to multi-dotting, and this will create amazing synergy with Twin Moons. The Crit interact is simply flavor and also the talent to scale-up nicely.

Fury of Elune:

  • No changes. Maybe have the DR be 66% of normal damage.
  • Why? :: FOE fills a cool niche. We are a ramping spec, and FOE is the exception for us.
34 Likes

I honestly think that those changes feel like they would fill most of the problems that we have now. Most of my issues do revolve around that downtime between eclipses and not feeling that spending AP between them besides just damage felt good to me. Especially that Dreamweaver because I have had time where I’ve spent both of my eclipses and am now at the point where I’m just waiting and already at max AP.

2 Likes

Feral Feedback

SUBJECT NO.1

Main priority is BT along with rework on SBT to completely remove the refresh.
“Talents should enhance a spec" which is the complete opposite of what it does, but I’m assuming we all know what we mean by that. Making the core mechanic of a spec something you generally only need to think about once is not ideal in terms of spec design. I wholeheartedly think that it needs to be removed or heavily reworked.

The change to BT isn’t surprising considered there was talk about changing it back in start of the expansion but it didn’t get resolved there

The change itself looks like it has potential. Feels good with a big damage-buff to rip and it encourages people to properly pool. Furthermore not spending 1 second on the BT gcd, while also freeing PS procs up to use as you please without losing damage.

This does obviously require that the energy flow supports this and doesn’t get inflated within a patch or two which I hope will be kept in mente.

The downside to the new BT is it’s completely negated by sabertooth outside of aoe. Basically you’re going to use berserk, tiger’s fury, bleed target and spam bite to keep rip up for the entire fight without ever paying mind to the snapshot or the rip which makes the talent feel very pointless in itself.

This is not a new concern with sabertooth. Just yet again a time where its issues become apparent. It removes a large portion of what is defined as core gameplay for feral. Blizzard does recognize feral as a snapshotting class that deals damage with bleeds and bites. Sabertooth removes the main bleed from the equation and a large chunk of the snapshotting. New BT is just harder hit by this.

SUBJECT NO.2

Removal of SI from Feral’s toolkit.
Survival Instincts is an ability we’ve had since feral turned into its own pure dps spec. It’s considered a core ability in our toolbox and now it’s getting pruned for barkskin which we had TOGETHER with SI in the past. It’s one of our core abilities that everybody uses and enjoys. Especially the later implemented 2 charge system is really fun and gives you the option for aggressive playstyle during boss fights, m+ and pvp instead of having to go bear form and pray healers bother with you. The lack of SI makes us become a glass cannon without ammunition which really isn’t what we want. We want our defensives.

Basically our bearform is what boomies have passively from high armor in boomie form without the loss of damage from having to shift into bear form.

This will also be a problem in m+ and raid where you have to leave your dps form unlike boomies to mitigate the damage.

It feels like a really poor choice to remove SI while talking about de-pruning specs.

The biggest issue of removing SI is not just one person’s bad reaction. We are talking about the whole Feral community! As much as we understand that a new expansion brings changes and unifies every bit to have consistency across the whole system is logical! We agree with the way the blizzard devs changed some things. Removal of SI though is a stab in the wound we already have from the perception of the community about feral which is mocking the spec’s viability outside of guild runs. With the hand on the heart, the removal of SI from Feral needs to be reverted. It is our own unique defensive as a melee DPS spec.

Overall this change will make it harder for us to get into pugs as a spec that might bring the damage but have to be carried by the healer to even survive incoming damage. This also brings us to what we bring to the group utility wise.

SUBJECT NO.3

Class-wide Utility
As Ferals we feel quite happy that this change will give the other specs the fun of using Stampeding Roar, which at some point can be proven useful on any type of content.

As much as we appreciate this action that was taken by Blizzard to make those changes and implement them across the whole class, there are some points where Feral feels and looks like a lackluster.

Ursols was promised as class wide utility from start. Do that. Right now feral have no personal utility to be brought for in groups. It’s so bad that you had to put maim on the feral affinity to even have SOMETHING. No boomie, resto or bear is ever going to take the affinity for that.

One can wonder why boomie that has several unique utilities got typhoon just so they could give THAT to other specs through their affinity. Could have been treants instead and have given feral the typhoon for their affinity which would have made far more sense. Instead our “utility” is now going to be maim?
What’s the point of de-pruning us when we don’t actually feel the de-pruning here? We have lost symbiosis, leader of the pack, ursols, fairy fire, treants, nature’s vigil, tranquility and innervate over time. There’s a lot of options to give some of this back in a de-pruning.

Not to say that i personally think LoTP is a good idea here. Nor FF since it ruins the fun of stealth for the opponent. Innervate is “just” for one person in the group

Give us something we actually can say “This is what we bring to the table to make life easier for you all”.Some form of group utility. Hell. Even giving Ursols to ALL specs would satisfy me as an overall nice CC toolbox despite us not bringing anything on our own.
It feels extremely unfair to not have anything useful in return while other specs sit happily on so many unique utility options.

SUBJECT NO.4

Berserk - Offensive cooldown?! Not really.
This topic is by far the most straight forward one. Berserk is not really worth being called an Offensive 3 min Cooldown ability. Out of the ordinary lowering cost of abilities and giving us some more energy room for pooling, there is nothing more. Weave in more shreds or brutal slashes? We can do that anyway during the whole fight, because there is no actual impact when Berserk is up. No damage modification whatsoever on a 20sec duration, whereas Incarn gives us straight up Stealth Rakes and Stealth Shreds for its full duration 30 second.

Feral has always been a spec with a quite good, sustained and stable damage throughout any content. An example would be back in Legion when there was a 15% buff through artifact talents which complemented Berserk to actually feel like a real cooldown to pop on burst windows.
We want to be clear that we don’t demand to be OP. We want this ability to have an actual reason for pressing it apart from the low cost of abilities and extra energy pool. We simply want it to feel better than what it does right now.

SUBJECT NO.5

Execute Range
Sub 20% execute was something we lost not long ago and it’s sorely missed. It wasn’t a big dps gain but it felt good and empowered us slightly for the endphase.
It was removed possibly due to buff Sabertooth as a talent? Maybe, but it’s something we miss having and we may be asking for miracles but could also be reverted. That would solve one of the many issues Sabertooth brought being a monotonous destroyer of Feral’s true identity as a spec.

Closing Statement
Bear in mind that we are passionate about this spec and wholeheartedly just want it to work. We have spent so many years playing it for the most part and we would appreciate the understanding from the Dev’s behalf on these 5 topics. The first 3 subjects are the most concerning ones and by far the most important! The latter 2 are preferences we would love to experience again.

We humbly thank you in advance for your consideration,

The Dreamgrove Discord,
Feral Discord Community.

82 Likes

IMHO, it might be nice if they just make the various Incarnations baseline (with some tweaks where needed).

As noted, kitty zerk isn’t really all that interesting, and bearzerk could also use the love. While Moonkin and Resto aren’t as lacking in the CD department, super tree and armor chicken both improve “readability” for opponents (in pvp) and spectators (in general).

As an aside, given the renewed emphasis on new players, it also would provide some clarity to fresh troll droods who may wonder why they have Berserk and Berserking on their bars.

16 Likes
  • Survival Instincts now gains 1 Charge at Rank 1, and 2 Charges at Rank 2 (Guardian only).

  • With the Bloodtalons talent, now when you use Shred, Rake, and Thrash (was Ferocious Bite) within 3 seconds, the damage of your next 2 Rips (was 1 Rip) or Ferocious Bites is increased by 30% (was 50%).

24 Likes

i have messed with all of the druid specs on Alpha Feral is getting hit the hardest. as boom or resto i can pull huge mobs and be just fine. as feral i die to anything more than 3 mobs. Feral already takes to much work to play much less having to worry about dying every 4 sec.

42 Likes

Agreed about the squishiness. I also had trouble with some higher-mob-density areas, especially the areas with the misguided stewards. If they summoned a guard without me realizing, I’d get pounded and have to retreat. Taking on elites was impossible as well. I actually had to finish most of the Bastion quests in Guardian spec due to the beatings I was taking (was the same in BFA leveling to 120 after Legion legendaries deactivated). Felt like I was getting chunked for 1/8 of my HP per auto-attack from generic enemies at one point, even with all the upgraded gear I could possibly have gotten from the quests. Enemy mobs were laughing right through Barkskin. Energy regeneration was also pretty slow from 50-53 which meant way less Predatory Swiftness activations, which meant less self-healing via Regrowths.

Probably could have made it easier on myself by taking Mass Entangle talent, but I was trying to test the new HotW talent as well which eats up the same talent row.

I’m not too worried about the flimsiness in the overworld, because leveling to max is a one-time thing and not the end-game loop, and by the time you are doing WQs with Season 1 raid gear you’re blasting through overworld enemies. But the end-game loop is where I’m super worried about us not having SI back in its full capacity (the REAL Survival Instincts - both stacks at 2 minutes’ cooldown). It’s our best counter to spikes of incoming damage while keeping DPS up. Having to Bear Form to survive is fine in some rare cases, but if DPS needs to stay up in order to turn the tide and the new bleeds aren’t ticking hard enough, “Bear-weaving” for survival is going to feel like garbage.

I can only hope there are some amplifications from soulbinds and covenants that ease our ability to survive at end-game. We’ll see.

25 Likes

The BT change feels pretty good so far. Opener is rather smooth, and that second charge was a nice surprise. Not only is that more pointy love to spread, but it should also lead to less rake clipping.

9 Likes

Shadowlands Bloodtalons Iteration # 2:

I yield to feedback from more experienced Ferals, but this seems to be superior to the “Shadowlands Bloodtalons Iteration # 1”, especially in visceral feel and constant engagement. No more having to use a low-CP FeroBite to open the buff window on pull, and it also keeps the player engaged with the BT buff constantly no matter what’s going on in the fight, even if Sabertooth is taken as a talent and Rip reapplications are easy.

Optimal opener seems to be (please correct me if I’m wrong):

  • Berserk/Incarn+TigerFury, Stealth-Rake > Thrash > Shred (BT activates) > Rip (between 3-5 CP depending on crits) > Shred to 5 CP > FeroBite > Shred > Thrash > Rake (BT activates) > Shred to 5 CP > Finisher (Rip or FeroBite depending on Sabertooth talent) ?

I have a concern with this current iteration. Even at level 53 (albeit with the assistance of Berserk because our energy regen is terrible at 53), it feels like I’m reaching the point where I need to cast the 2nd Rake a bit too soon, like I haven’t even gotten into its pandemic window yet. I imagine with full end-game buffs, gear, covenants and soulbinds, Lust/Hero/Drums, we could hit a point where we’re clipping the 2nd Rake pretty badly during the opener, or other places throughout the fight. Option B is postpone the 2nd Rake, plow forward with a non-BT-buffed finisher (DPS loss). Option C is Shred once or twice to delay using Rake, then do a BT combo and almost certainly lose combo points to Primal fury procs before the next finisher (DPS loss).

Rake feels like it is actually a 115-energy skill now because you’ll want to bundle Rake into a BT combo every time. As was the same with the previous iteration of BT, the timing of when you go all-in on the BT combo revolves heavily around Rake. It also seems like you’ll want your CP at 0 whenever you start a BT combo or risk losing CP due to Primal Fury (passive with crits) - since all three combo moves are CP-generators this time.

Thrash isn’t too big a fuss other than its energy cost. You can probably clip Thrash whenever you want, ignoring pandemics, snapshots, etc because its damage gain/loss is so negligible - it’s just used to activate the combo, unless some late-game mechanics emerge that revolve around Thrash synergy. This does put Thrash back on the map for Ferals. With Thrash’s relatively low damage output, high energy cost, the inevitable loss of Wild Fleshrending, on top of the target-cap on Swipe (for Scent of Blood - which no one takes anyway) it was looking like Thrash would be near-useless in SL. But, I’m also a bit conflicted about Thrash only being a token/throwaway combo move with no other synergy or function.

I can only speculate from here. I’m hoping Druids will be able to start climbing Torghast soon, so I can give better feedback on this BT iteration or any new ones to come.

This does seem like a step up from the previous BT iteration so far. Needs more testing.

18 Likes

Rake clipping could be an issue, but it’s still way better than it was. Especially if not running incarn, where that first stealth rake just went poof.

Considering how infrequent pure single-target fights are, the positives would likely outweigh that downside. If there does end up being a Patchwerk style boss (or when soloing Torghast bosses), maybe Savage Roar could be a viable way to cycle points between BT and rakes?

4 Likes

First, I’d like to echo the sentiments already posted here related to Guardian. The spec never fully recovered in BFA from where it felt like it was in Legion, despite the more complicated systems added throughout BFA. I personally believe this is a problem of the “base skillset” given to Guardian. If the base skillset is lackluster for a spec, then that spec is never going to feel as fun or satisfying to play to another spec with a better base skillset, despite however many additional abilities or passives are layered on throughout an expansion.

In looking at the first iteration of Guardian in Shadowlands Alpha, it feels very similar to early BFA. The addition of Berserk is nice, but it’s not enough to bring identify back to the spec. Simply put, the question is why should a group or raid want to bring a Guardian? What neat things can they do to help the group succeed? I challenge anyone to play all of the tanks in their current iterations and try to conclude that Guardian is anything special currently.

Abilities-Offensive
Our rotation is identical to live – we have Mangle, Thrash, Swipe, Moonfire, and Maul as our primary abilities. Ignoring damage numbers, I noted that Swipe now has a 5-target AOE cap. This is in stark contrast to other tanks who have no AOE caps (unless it is a capped ability in live currently sans Soul Cleave). I think capping AOE on tanks should be given careful consideration, especially if the same rule isn’t going to apply to all tanks universally. For Swipe, my hopeful assumption is that in looking to apply it to Feral, it inadvertently got carried over to Guardian as well. If it was intentional, I’m wondering why it should be more difficult for a Guardian to pick up adds, or hold threat on larger packs, than any other tank? If it is just applied to Guardian, it will lead to frustrating situations for Guardians trying to keep up with other tanks on holding AOE threat.

The new iteration of Berserk is nice – but a 3-minute cooldown for such a limited uptime doesn’t feel great. This is really the only new cooldown we get to play with, and honestly it just feels like a single Vision of Perfection proc with slightly better use on Ironfur.

Otherwise there is not much new here for us.

Abilities–Defensive
Frenzied Regeneration now has a healing received component added but the base heal amount is reduced. I worry that unless there is a way to extend this in SL, the window in which the 20% additional healing buff is given is so small it’s almost negligible. I think the concept is interesting, but we will need to see how this one interacts with other systems/abilities. Also, please consider taking Frenzied Regeneration off the GCD. I’m definitely not the first person to ask for reconsideration of this. There’s plenty of examples on the forums and in the community as to why this is a justified request.

Outside of the FR change, there’s not really anything new.

Utility
Our utility in BFA has pretty much been limited to Battle Res and Stampeding Roar. Notably, while Battle Res is nice, there are several other specs who can bring this, and with the right profession, anyone can. Stampeding Roar will be given to all druids, which is okay, but to the small extent a group wanted roar from a Guardian or Feral that would be gone.

In BFA Guardians would look for windows in which to throw out a quick Swiftmend either to themselves, or another party member, and then quickly go back to Bear to continue tanking. In SL Alpha, we now have to have an existing HoT before we can Swiftmend, thereby taking two GCDs to use it, and making it that much more awkward/dangerous for us to try to ever use Swiftmend.

Talents
I believe the Guardian talents are the “low hanging fruit” for Blizzard to try to work with, without making so-called substantial class changes. Our talent tree feels like it really needs another look. Affinities are a very cool concept, but the way they play out in practice is not quite as interesting.

With the current iteration of SL talents, we are stuck between taking Ursol’s Vortex and Typhoon, both staple abilities in BFA. Similarly, Wild Charge competes with the newly re-added Renewal. Guardian’s are used to having at least a single charge for anyone who has played the spec in previous expansions (and vanilla). Charge should really just be a baseline ability for Guardian. It’s not a fun or interesting choice to pit it up against any other talent because it’s so iconic to how people are used to mechanically playing the spec.

We are also left with things like Lunar Beam. I don’t think anyone has ever taken Lunar Beam in any real content in BFA – this one needs a serious look for it being a last-tier talent.

Otherwise, folks have already pointed out concerns with Pulverize and Heart of the Wild, as well as other talents.

My point is these deserve a second (or third) look.

Conclusion
I think many of us who main Guardians are looking for some semblance of where we were in Legion. We had a fun rotation, we had many active and passives that synergized seamlessly, and we felt like we brought something to groups we played with. In BFA, we had that stripped away. Help give us an identity back as a tanking spec. Please do not rely on the Shadowlands progression systems to “fix” Guardian and try to address some of the baseline problems now.

I think I am not alone when I say Shadowlands is looking like an absolutely incredible expansion. I am certainly excited about it; however, those of us providing early feedback as to class design in these forums are just trying to get the discussion started as early as possible, in hopes that Blizzard will potentially consider some of our ideas, or at least engage in the discussion. We really do not want to feel like a languishing spec like we did for most of BFA.

I know this is the first iteration of our look into SL Alpha, and I remain optimistic and excited for what’s yet to come.

Thank you!

42 Likes

I need to test with it more, but I feel like Soul of the Forest is the mandatory talent in row 5, if taking row 7 Bloodtalons (in its current iteration). Without that energy refund, the mountain of energy needed after clearing CP to 0 with any finisher (115), to land the BT combo before Rake falls off completely feels insurmountable without Berserk. Tiger’s Fury and/or Clarity may not always be ready, either. Still running tests on it, though.

13 Likes

I added this to my big post above to keep it all in one place, but also wanted to mention separately:

(Added April 18) Swiftmend nerf - The change to Swiftmend so it requires a HoT on the target makes it much less useful when taking Resto affinity. You used to be able to pop out of bear form if you had a moment, Swiftmend yourself or an ally, and then pop back into bear form before taking another hit. I’d use this a lot when an enemy was casting a spell, or did a charge ability and was running back to me afterwards. With the change to Swiftmend, we can’t do this anymore, since you have to pop out, HoT the target, THEN cast Swiftmend. Suggest eliminating the HoT requirement to Swiftmend for Feral & Guardian who take Resto affinity.

26 Likes

This comment isn’t strictly regarding SL Druid capability or issues, but I would love to be able to use all my Legion Artifact appearances in any spec.

Appearances shouldn’t be tied to a specific weapon type, or spec. In any spec, when I shift into cat I want to look like Ashamane, and Ursoc when I shift into bear.

Maybe that’s a lot to ask, but its a dream and thought I ask!

42 Likes

The worst part of it is that it requires two GCDs to use. Two GCDs out of form. Assuming someone else hasn’t hotted you. Which is extremely bad for Guardian. But for Resto, having an important high throughput heal locked behind a prior spell is equally bad. I’m not a fan of the reversion for swiftmend requiring a prior hot. My recommendation is to keep swiftmend as is from BFA.

16 Likes

Another thought on feral (someone may have suggested this earlier).
Instead of saber tooth extending rip, which can make single target boring, maybe make the talent increase ferocious bite’s damage per bleed on the target. It still makes the talent a single target boost but doesn’t take away the complexity of weaving in empowered rips.
For example: 1 bleed = 3% increase in FB damage
2 bleed = 6%
3 bleeds = 10%
Or however the math works out to make it worth taking the talent for single target.

11 Likes

Feral Feedback:

Shadowlands Bloodtalons Version # 2

Speculation and worry about Rake in single-target situations:

I’ve done more testing, and admittedly there’s still too much up in the air to judge how smooth the rotation may feel at end-game - gear, buffs, talents, etc all taken into account. Torghast may actually be a bad place to test the new Bloodtalons, as well, unfortunately, because of how wacky scaling in there can get.

But there are some potential problems coming up with Rake and the new Bloodtalons. Rake is looking like it’s going to get clipped too early and too often, no matter what other talents besides BT are taken, because 2 Rips or FeroBites can potentially be gone through at quick speed - as little as 4 GCDs per buildup+finisher - once a Feral reaches end-game capabilities and Primal Fury procs are more frequently activating from Crits.

Even as low as Level 53 with greens and blues in Bastion, with Berserk up, if Crits are generous, a Feral can reach the 2nd Rake in a standard opener (SOTF talented) several seconds before its pandemic window opens. Trying to push Rake to the third slot in the combo on its 2nd application helps a little, but only by a couple GCDs - and besides that, Tiger’s Fury will fall off before the Feral gets to the 2nd Rake, unless they took the Predator talent. Discounting that, the opening Stealth-Rake has a hella high snapshot, so this clip is going to be terrible no matter what. The only alternatives are to let energy cap out for several seconds and let precious time with Berserk go to waste, or push out another 5-CP FeroBite or Rip without the BT buff. I’d sooner just clip the Rake. Feels bad.

As a Feral’s Crit and Haste increase, this could become a more prominent problem instead of ironing itself out. Sitting at energy cap or using non-BT-buffed damage finishers while waiting for Rake to tick down into its pandemic window are not viable options, especially if Berserk is up at the time. Even without Berserk it looks like it has the potential to happen a lot. Bottom line - two stacks of Bloodtalons may not be enough to ensure all Rips and/or FeroBites are buffed. I have no idea how this would be fixed. If any other Ferals are in alpha who could put me on the right track, please do. I could be missing something obvious.

I’m not sure what can be done other than potentially making Rake tick faster - say 12 seconds instead of 15 - but I’m not a developer so that could imbalance something else. Alternatively, as I believe Josephine mentioned, Savage Roar may make an appearance in the end-game rotation as a third finisher that players could dump CP and energy into while waiting for Rake to tick down, and fighting to keep energy from capping (since SR doesn’t take a stack of Bloodtalons). But I’m not sure how feasible or optimal Savage Roar is going to be in the end-game rotation yet. With the current version of BT, it seems like we’re just piling on massive scaling for finishers, so the SOTF talent for that same row seems easier and ideal. The enhanced energy regen from SR could compound the problem with Rake clippings, or perhaps SR will have little effect on the issue, especially given its generous duration if cast with 3-5 CP. Even a Sabertooth-talented opener like this:

  • Berserk+Tiger’sFury > Stealth-Rake > Thrash > Shred (BT activates) > Savage Roar > Shred > Rip > Shred to 5 CP > FeroBite > Shred > Thrash > Rake

works to save the 2nd Rake from a clipping, but now the 5-CP Ferobite misses the TF window. DPS is lost elsewhere in some way.

I’m worried that we’re heading for a lot of butchered Rake reapplications if the alternatives could be even less appealing. This could potentially be a major problem with the flow of the rotation. It’s looking like the most sane bet might be to ignore high snapshots for Rake outside of the opener, and just clip it if you have to. Maintaining BT for finishers takes precedence. Use Tiger’s Fury after the BT combo and try to squeeze two BT-buffed finishers within TF’s lifespan. Anything else feels too frustrating or is impossible to balance or maintain. There seems to be a lopsided focus on finishers anyway. Rake could become more of a hassle and less of an exciting point in the rotation.

I’m not saying this version of BT won’t work at all - just that its flow could get wonky late-game because bleeds like Rake (and to a lesser extent Thrash with its inconsequential damage) just won’t tick down fast enough. As a reminder, this is just what I gathered from single-target testing so far. I’m hoping some lower-level AoE/Cleave training dummies get set up in Bastion in a future alpha build so I can test multi-target. 2 stacks of BT with a multi-target situation sounds like an amazing chance to use 2x Primal Wraths.

TL;DR: Some way of speeding up bleeds may need to make a return. Something similar to what Jagged Wounds used to do. Not sure where it would fit on the talent tree, though, or if it would even be a talent.

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Hello! Thank you for including me in Alpha! (My first time in 11 years!)

I’m loving that Balance Druid has not changed too drastically, however, I do think that Starfall should be looked at again. As now my fear of pulling extra mobs has returned (laughs!) So far I have noticed that Starfall only attacks mobs that are active in combat, however, there were times when I’ve used it and was blamed for pulling something across the room (I apologized of course but I had no idea if it was me haha!)

My other feedback would be towards our CCs. While I’m happy to see many of them back, it’s… a lot? As I won’t use many of the spells I did just leave them in the spell book.

That’s my take so far Devs! Can’t wait to help out some more!

My brain could just be fuzzy since it’s late here, but in theory couldn’t the stealth rake clip when using Savage Roar be fixed if they baked the old glyph into talent?

IE, use 0-point rip before opener, get the big BT Rip and Bite, then work the 5-point Roar in around the pandemic window? Granted, there’d still be some clipping here and there when the timers don’t line up or during crit/clearcast droughts, but it would give some wiggle room.

The 0-point roar could also make SR more attractive in general too.

Either way, as you said, this doesn’t help much when using SotF. I’m not sure if there’s an easy answer there.

Oh, and as for dummies, does teleport to Moonglade work for you? I didn’t try on Tauren, but my Worgen and Moose could escape Bastion to use dummies in Org/SW/etc…

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