FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

It’s a lot more limiting when it comes to PVP. You will need to hope your conduits are following a similar routes.

Not really, i will be playing balance in PvP as with every expansion.

Theres no excuse for a copout here and thinking people should be expected to play feral or resto just to get 2100-2400.

Rank 1 sure, but not generic “high” rankings

2 Likes

My point was that if you want to play just balance, fantastic. I, however, would like to play all four. I suspect I am not the only druid to feel that way.

The game is clearly designed to penalize you for wanting to play you’re entire class. This is a point I disagree with, but can accept as the differences can be mitigated on other classes.

I’m just saying that druids are penalized more than any other class in the game when it comes to gearing, maintaining, and playing all aspects of the class. And in the case of the soulbinds, there seems to be no way to play all four specs consistently.

22 Likes

Kyrian covenant ability in solo play needs to be buffed significantly.

For example the DPS empowerment is 30% damage for two players 10s/60s. The Lone empowerment is 10% damage for one player which is 16% the effectiveness. Buffing this to 30% dam for the solo player is still half effectiveness and lets you actually have an ability in solo content.

In addition to this when your linked partner is dead in combat it should then revert to lone empowerment instead of being uncastable - it should be up to the player to recast bond with another alive player or prioritise the Rez on the dead bonded player.

The ability should probably also be tuned higher (40%?) considering the risk factor is much higher and doesn’t provide burst like the nightfae or revendreth.

Necrolord’s adaptive swarm doesn’t scale well past 2 targets and currently the necrolord tree does not have any significant throughput (e.g. 5% vers or 8% mastery proc), making it a dead pick in PvE DPS. Adaptive DPS swarm needs to be buffed significantly or more throughput traits in conduit trees to make it compelling for raiding (if it’s intended for low target PvE) - at least then you are picking strong ST
/cleave vs generic damage profiles against the other 3 Covenants. Also if Adaptive Swarm is dispellable in PvP I don’t get the point of ever picking necrolord?

7 Likes

Fair enough. Guess I didnt read Into what u meant Clearly

I can agree with that even from my PoV

8 Likes

In an upcoming build, Feral will find some new things and some rearranged things around Berserk, Incarnation, Shred, and Rake. The main goal is to put more power and interest into baseline Berserk.

• Berserk (without requiring a talent) now makes Shred and Rake deal damage as though you were stealthed, and makes finishing moves refund 2 combo points.
• A new upgrade to Shred makes it generate an extra combo point when used from stealth (and by extension, during Berserk).
• Incarnation, as always, lasts 30 seconds and grants all benefits of Berserk, plus one additional effect–now, some energy cost reduction. It continues to allow one in-combat restealth.
• Stealth bonuses to Shred and Rake rebalanced somewhat (Shred higher than live, and Rake lower than live) both to make them more competitive, and to reflect their presence on a baseline cooldown.

Not much more to be said, but Berserk should pay off more as a core cooldown, substantially improving various abilities and amping up the pace of your rotation, without putting you under heavy Energy pressure. Let us know any feedback!

37 Likes

Great changes, but still doesn’t do anything with the main feral issue: useless in raids.

41 Likes

Great changes so far! Looking forward to giving these a go.

I’m still concerned for the utility side of Feral though. Any chance this could be looked at as well?

As others have likely mentioned, Feral doesn’t bring anything unique or particularly interesting to a raid setting, outside of stampeding roar. It’s a very niche ability that’s never a necessity. Most classes already has so much mobility.

Having something that benefits the group as a whole would hit the spot. Lots of suggestions point to Leader of the Pack, but that may be too powerful? Maybe a weaker variant of it would work.

An off-the-wall thought would be a debuff you can apply to enemies. When the enemies are hit by any player, it has a small chance to cause some effect. This can likely be added to guardian as they also need some love.

Best regards

23 Likes

Hey there, squeaky wheel here!

Is there a Guardian update anywhere on the horizon? It has been extremely quiet in regards to blue posts on Guardian and the lack of response to lots of Guardian feedback in this thread is concerning.

39 Likes

Will Bears find anything?

Bears are still lacking fun tools:

  • ranged silence (previously available with talent Fae silence)
  • AoE cc (previously available with talent Intimidating Roar)
  • snare (previously applied with thrash, now unavailable, not even via talent)
  • Frenzied Regen should be off the GCD. Pressing it a millisecond early and thinking it went off but didn’t is extremely frustrating.
  • Maul still pretty much useless (give it some interesting component, like the old effect of shielding the next auto attack or maybe make it a single target filler that procs Mangle while Swipe procs Thrash)
  • Crit giving Dodge still a lousy tacked on effect. Make this interesting, like an absorb
  • Rage has no meaning because right now there’s really only one thing to spend it on, Ironfur. Maul isn’t worth pressing and FR is basically free.
43 Likes

The feral changes look to be a strong positive. Still really need to address the utility issue. Why bring a Feral to a raid?

13 Likes

Credit where credit is due. Berserk as a cooldown was a huge issue for feral and this addresses it very nicely!

I’d still love to see some consideration towards it’s 3m cooldown status. Hopefully these updates bring it to the power level a 3m deserves but if not, some tuning and making it a 2m would be fantastic for helping the spec fall in line with raid timings for several other classes and make those damage windows easier to plan/coordinate.

Can’t wait to do some more testing with this.

20 Likes

I like this change because it address a very core issue with Zerk in a nice way.

There’s still a handful of minor issues but honestly, it feels like they are slowly being addressed. I’m going to put those to the side for now because there’s one remaining, glaring issue that I feel NEEDS to be responded to. There’s a core piece of communication missing here between the development team and those of us that enjoy Feral.

I’m going to address you directly here for a moment @Sigma. I understand you guys don’t talk much about changes until they are in place. I also understand why. But what I’d like to hear is your philosophy on the following matter in a candid way.

Things are being dealt with, but this one is the largest and much of the community, especially outside of the Feral community, cite this as the CORE and GLARING issue with Feral.

Group Utility.

Here are my detailed thoughts on the matter. Lets assume Feral exists in a vacuum. Lets assume all classes exist in a vacuum and do not interact with the group much at all. I’m talking about the extreme of “Bring the Player not the Class”. Feral mostly works right now.

The concern is that in group play, it does not exist in a Vacuum. It exists in a world where it is one of three classes with both a Melee and a Ranged spec. It is also one of the two in that set to have a Healer spec and the only one with a Tank spec.

Every class has a reason to come to raid. That’s the core of raid utility and a philosophy that you put forward in Shadowlands to move the pendulum a little bit away from “Bring the Player not the Class”.

One of the reasons that Legion succeeded isn’t just because there was “Class Identity” but also “Spec Identity”. A lot of it. You FELT like a FIRE MAGE. Though the feedback is you didn’t feel like a MAGE sometimes, but just FIRE. BFA undid some of that, but lost a lot of SPEC Identity. Now you feel like a MAGE but don’t feel like a FIRE MAGE.

Shadowlands should try to find that middle ground. Where Feral currently fails is that it can’t differentiate itself from other Melee specs enough to leave the shadow of the other three specs it deals with. Shadowlands makes this issue worse.

Looking at Feral’s utility kit, it lacks identity, and Shadowlands is making this issue worse.

  • Stampeding Roar was given to all specs.

  • Innervate was not.

  • Feral lacks a way to differentiate itself from other Melee specs in a raid environment in a world where all utility available to it is available in a different role.

  • No other melee class has this above issue. The problem really boils down to “Why bring a Feral over XXX. We already have what it provides”.

The things I’ve been advocating for since BfA alpha are:

  1. Leader of the Pack/Moonkin Aura(Rename it) are given to Feral/Guardian and Resto/Balance in a lower impact form to bring them in line with classes that bring other raid throughput buffs unique to them.
    Transition the PvP talents to buffs to the baseline ability that create the current functionality.

  2. Give Feral/Bear Innervate. Resto/Balance got Stampede. If you want to differentiate make Feral/Bear a larger 1min Stampede and have a weaker Innervate.

Some changes regarding Shadowlands stuff coming in.

  1. Heart of the Wild should be Baseline. Part of the Druid class Identity is that feeling of being able to be fluid in a role in a clutch moment. That is missing. It also feels out of place in a Crowd Control Row.

  2. It also feels bad having CCs linked to the affinities. One core reason for this is because this breaks the “Ursol’s Vortex + Typhoon” combo that Guardian/Resto had access to. Typhoon baseline with Ursol’s as a talent there would feel a lot better. This brings back some very cool utility that is currently very missed. Maim is very marginally useful in Feral affinity compared to the rest, and honestly Incap roar can just stay Bear exclusive. Making it Baseline might be excessive but I wouldn’t complain.

I’m attempting to give as much feedback/ideas here because I want to try and convey as clearly as possible what feels “Missing” I’m not arguing that we should have ALL of this (while that would be nice).

Sigma, what I’m trying to say here is that that the community at large would very much like to hear your philosophy on the matter. This is what feels missing from the communication between the Dev team and the Feral Community at the moment and if you look around it’s really the core of the frustration with the spec at the moment.

You responded philosophy wise here on the matter of Resto+HotW and Torghast balance. It was very much appreciated.

I think an open discussion with some of your thoughts on the matter, possible directions you think we could take, and things you disagree with would be something very much appreciated by the community at large. Frankly considering how long this problem has been on the table, I feel its almost warranted at this point.

Hell. I love talking game design, about Feral in general, and just nerding out. I’d be willing to spend all day on say a Zoom call with you and shoot the crap all day.

I’m half kidding here, I think these discussions should be in a public forum, but hell if it happened we could maybe stream it. Maybe get together a larger, respectful, open, honest chat with some of the more active Theorycrafters. IDK I’m rambling and probably overambitious at this point. I don’t even know how we would open that point of contact in the first place. I guess ping me on discord: Icarus#6671.

I’ve rambled enough, so I’ll wrap up the post. If you’ve made it this far, thank you. Either way, I look forward to the discussion if it does happen.

30 Likes

Couple quick things on Feral.

I like the Berserk buffs… It needed a lot of Oomph to make it actually somewhat impactful button to press. Sounds good to me.

Feral still needs some form of utility beyond Stampeding Roar, a nerfed version of leader of the pack for example, ~1-2% crit buff for their party would be a nice start (can make it nerfed even so it doesn’t feel “Required” for raids - Similar to Windfury Totem for Enhance shams, its utility for them in shadowlands, but its not too good to where guilds feel the need to always have to run an enhance shammy. (Its just a nice plus). Something like this for feral would be really nice.

It would be great to start to see Feral ran in raids again. Basically SOMETHING to where guilds don’t feel bad for running a Feral druid at the higher end and as though they’re just losing out on a slot they could run a rogue and have an immunity. Even in Legion feral had more utility because we had that small vers buff for our group whenever we used Tigers Fury.

The disparity in melee DPS utility in how some bring 5% buffs and others bring nothing just does not make any logical sense in this new era of the game. It creates a very uneven playing field.

Another thing, is it makes no sense as to why balance druid gets stampeding roar AND innervate, and effectively gets ferals utility. As of right now there’s literally no reason to bring a feral over a balance druid and run another melee slot. That aside, Stampeding roar is largely redundant raid utility since at higher levels of play it is typically brought with wind rush totem from a shammy anyways… So I would hardly even consider it “raid utility” at this point… Something more would definitely go a long ways.

24 Likes

Hey if you don’t want people to play Guardian Druids anymore, can you just like… say that? Thanks in advance.

38 Likes

Nice post. I have issues in other spots as well like things that just feel way off to me about feral as well. This un-prune gave abilities back to the classes but they don’t fell like class abilities to the same extant that they do to certain specs. I say this with Rebirth and Cyclone in mind. These abilities are not as useful to feral as they are to the other specs. Rebirth is an odd one as feral is the only spec that has to come out of form to use it for some unknown reason. Basically punished for using a class ability that none of the other specs have to deal with. Cyclone is another one not sure why feral or guardian can’t use it in form when balance can. Balance is immune to poly just like feral so its not that maybe mobility but balance gets extra armor instead as does guardian of course.

It feels like we have gotten to a point where feral isn’t even a druid since it seems to have it own set of rules compared to the other specs of druid even. Like you said the other specs of druid can do everything a feral can do and often with far less inconvenience. So again you have to ask why bring a feral if not over other classes or specs why over its own classes specs. I think Class abilities shouldn’t be punishing to any specs of any class. At least in my opinion if its a class ability, then should it not be comfortable for all specs of its class ? If its a spec ability then it should feel uncomfortable to the other specs, or not accessible to that spec at all like innervate.

My guild is basically already telling me to choose the kyrian covenant ability because that is the closest to group utility I can get. They wont force me but its what they want me to choose because it gives a better reason to bring a feral. Frankly i feel like i should pick it just cause I feel bad for enjoying feral and not other specs/classes and the have tolerated me this far playing it. So really doesn’t feel like much of a choice for me. If i want to raid or even do m+ with them, and not feel terrible about playing it kyrian is the option. Though the m+ really feral is already out cause the other specs of druid can bring that same buff and again why bring a feral when you can bring a resto that can do damage and give the same damage buff to its group members and heal.

12 Likes

Feral Druid - Berserk rework (PvE, Single-target) - August 19.

I understand that Berserk getting reworked is inevitable and I am not trying to discourage that. But I just had an observation with new Berserk potentially butting heads with new Bloodtalons.

With the new Berserk as of August 19, 2020, even with a hodgepodge Bloodtalons build like Predator/SotF/PW/BT, you often end up ‘ahead of schedule’ on combo points in the opener. To the point where you may have to severely clip the 2nd Rake and/or Thrash/Moonfire (depending on spec) to reapply Bloodtalons stacks for the 3rd finisher. New Berserk causes some Shreds to generate 3 combo points(!!!). That combined with getting the 2 CP from the Berserk refund off any finisher, means BT stacks are burnt up super fast while Berserk is rolling. The other DoTs like Moonfire, Thrash, or Rake don’t even seem to have time to tick to the pandemic window. And this is with crappy gear at level 60 (141 item level), no Incarnation talent, no legendaries, and no soulbinds.

NOTE: Ravenous Frenzy from Venthyr was a good way to control the speed of the opener and give it a worst case “Can’t afford to pool” time-bomb. But even without the Venthyr offensive ability, I imagine energy-pooling during Berserk is probably best kept to crucial stuff only, such as 50-energy FBs, etc. Otherwise I’d imagine you want to squeeze in more Shreds.

My single-target test opener was:

  1. Stealth
  2. Ravenous Frenzy (if you have it from Venthyr - breaks stealth, which doesn’t matter now because Berserk covers it)
  3. Berserk
  4. Rake
  5. Thrash/Moonfire (depending on Tier 1 talent)
  6. Shred [2 BT stacks are gained]
  7. Shred to 5 CP if not at 5 CP yet > (Tiger’s Fury)
  8. Rip
  9. Shred to 5 CP
  10. FB @ 50 energy
  11. (Clipping time!) Thrash/Moonfire (depending on Tier 1 talent)
  12. (Clipping time!) Rake [2 BT stacks are gained hopefully]
  13. Shred to 5 CP
  14. Finisher
  15. etc.

It does depend a lot on Clearcasting and crits, of course. Sometimes there’s very little clipping on your 2nd Rake, or you may even have a chance to land an upgraded overwrite of Rake in the pandemic window with the late TF, which is a win-win. But the timing varies wildly and you can end up clipping Rake at about half its remaining duration if procs line up. It sucks and it’s a huge waste since Berserk/Stealth Rakes are super strong.

Does anyone else suggest a better, more stable opener with the new Berserk and Bloodtalons combined? I think 1-2 CP Rips in the opener are probably obsolete, because of the Berserked-Finisher refund mechanic being such a huge opportunity. I may have missed something, though. What all have you observed?

4 Likes

Haven’t played to much with it yet. With just a quick reading and a quick rare kill test I feel like without the extra energy or cost reduction on regular berserk. I feel like you wont have the energy to really utilize it as you will run out of energy even with the extra combo points you get from the full finisher.

Once again i’m saying this without a lot of testing on it. Just what I’m thinking will happen. Will see when i have more time to play around with it.

3 Likes

Honestly, just use Swipe and Thrash to activate BT if you need to avoid refreshing Rake for whatever reason.

Moonfire currently does not activate BT last I checked, unless that bug has been recently fixed.

1 Like

Adaptive swarm feels very under tuned for bear and balance (have not tested the other 2 but would seem to be the same based on the low % of dot dmg in the feral dmg kit, and the strength a dmg/healing cd would have for resto). Balance dots are a very low% of dps so a 20% increase of a low value is not very much. Considering the talent is not bursty like convoke one would expect it to do equal or more dmg in long 1-2 target fights compared to convoke but it is not close. The healing done is not enough to make up for this lack of dmg. I would consider a large dps buff if adaptive swarm is to be viable option for balance.

For bear it is a similar situation where it feels much weaker then convoke in long fights and is lacking the hps to make up for it. Bear moonfire is stronger relative but does not seem to be enough to make adaptive swarm worth considering.

9 Likes