FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

The lack of response to anything guardian related is concerning.

I’m not going to go into detail the issues with guardian, as others have outlined them far more clearly than I can in the thread above, but I did want to respond with my support for the fact that the class needs changes.

I’ve been a guardian main since wrath, this is the first expansion I’m seriously considering another class, and that makes me really sad. I feel like we were already the tank with the least utility, and we’re going into SL with less.

Pay attention to us. Several people have given very detailed posts about the problems with guardian on beta that have gone unacknowledged.


The arcanic pulsar themed legendary feels really bad to play with. You only want to starsurge during eclipse so you’re likely to trigger this effect during an eclipse. Triggering this legendary with incarnation as a talent puts a 30s buff for both eclipses up, overwriting any active eclipse you have. The triggered eclipses can’t be extended but expire as soon as the temporary incarn expires. When the incarn expires it drops you out of the eclipse you were in when you triggered it.

Oneth’s feels good to play for the most part but it is lacking a default ui poweraura.

Pawsitive Outlook themed legendary feels terrible as guardian. Fishing for burst threat feels like twilight dev on live and based on instinct it seems like the Luffa’s would be the strictly better choice as it provides more damage and a defensive benefit through rend and tear. I loved this as an artifact trait with Luffa’s in Legion but it seems like putting this as a direct competitor to Luffa’s leaves guardian with one less legendary option until we can equip multiple legendaries.

The Barkskin legendary feels like an extremely powerful defensive option and I’m really grateful for this as an option. Having this to fill in the major guardian weakness of spike damage on pull feels excellent.

Rage of the Sleeper legendary feels great.


Does anyone else think the Venthyr ability Ravenous Frenzy shouldn’t have a downside?

No other ability from what I see has a negative to it like this. Lets say you use it during heroism and get to 15 stacks but then a mechanic happens where you are idle for 1.5 seconds suddenly you are hit for 45% of your hp.

It is basically useless in arena from what I can tell. I still need to test it to see but happens if the other team sees you pop this, lets you build up to 10 stacks then los you for 1.5 seconds or stun you? (Does getting stunned trigger it? ) You will have 30% of your hp drop and get stunned for 1 second. No other ability from what I have seen can be taken advantage of by the other team and possibly cost you a match. It is going to feel bad for players that want to go Venthyr, maybe go boomy for most content and venthyr seems good with haste buff but then want to heal in arena as pressing their covenant ability will come with a large risk.

On top of that as a bear, losing ~30% of my health and being stunned for 1 second could wipe my party if I am not careful.


I guess it depends on who you’re weighing it against. Versus the covenant abilities that say, paladins or mages have, this one is incredibly strong and deserves the downside. Versus some of the ones for death knights or warlocks though, then yeah maybe not so much. So I guess it depends on where that balancing stick is supposed to be.

So, now that I’ve played SL Balance as in an intro character, a max level character, a few other premade SL characters and an imported character, I have to say that I really dislike Eclipse in its current form, at least for leveling and open world content. Most non-elites die too fast for Solar Eclipse to be useful, and for rounding up enemies and using mass AoE, it feels like extending Lunar Eclipse with Starsurge is way less effective than just maintaining Starfall. Also having Starsurge tied to the Eclipse empowerments disincentivizes me, personally at least, from using Starsurge outside of an eclipse for fear of “wasting” it. And while this might be due to my hesitance to use Starsurge outside of Eclipse, Starsurge feels like it’s lacking heft, even when it crits.

It’s quite possible that for dungeons and raids the current Eclipse will feel alright, but for just running around wrecking up the place, I feel like it’s less an ignorable mechanic than a mechanic that you really have to strain to work into your rotation, so for outdoor content it’s not really useful or fun. And I don’t know how to make it more enjoyable.

But I’m on record as never being a fan of Eclipse, and I’ve been in the Balance game since all we had was Hurricane. I think this is the best version of Eclipse that we’ve had since Wrath, but that version of Eclipse was barely comparable to all the others we’ve had since. I don’t think “Eclipse as the core mechanic” has ever worked well, and I don’t see it working well this expansion either, at least not in its current form.

TL;DR - I feel like Eclipse as a “core mechanic” is too awkward/clunky to fit into leveling and outdoor content.


re: Travel Form.

I don’t understand why Travel Form is being changed at all. The way it currently is, in this build, we don’t get equivalent movement speed on the ground until levels 24 and then 36. As for Flight speed, Travel Form is now limited to 150%? So if we want to fly at the fasted possible speed we are required to use a regular mount? Why? Because Travel Form is instant cast? IMO that is a pretty lame excuse.

More choice, not less. I am hoping this will change before Shadowlands goes Live.



M+ Bear here with some first thoughts on the feel of Bear in dungeons in Beta. I tank 24s-26s in live at the moment which may give me a unique perspective.


  • Not having to take Vortex over Wild Charge is really nice! I love having charge again. It always feels bad having bear as my only spec without charge.
  • Really excited about the new Incarn/Beserk legendary giving us damage plus leech when active. This is really going to give us a better big button to press.


  • Swiftmend feels really bad at the moment. It has been said already, but needs reiteration as being able to instant cast Swiftmend on yourself or an ally is clutch in special circumstances. I cannot tell you how many times I have Bullrushed out of combat, Swiftmended myself, went right back into bear and lived when I would have died in that circumstance in Beta.
  • Losing the ability to Typhoon is rough. Typhoon and Vortex go together like peanut butter and jelly (or perhaps you prefer lamb and tuna fish?). Missing out on Typhoon, as there really isn’t a choice of affinities in high keys, is bad. We won’t notice it nearly as much in beta, but not having it on Sanguine week or on a caster heavy dungeon like SotS for grouping mobs, is going to feel bad.

Things to Improve:

  • Having Cyclone is a great addition to our toolkit in M+, but it might be beneficial to allow us to cast it in bear form. Having to spend valuable time casting a CC is already rough tanking, but having to pop form to do this makes it near impossible in combat. With a 6 second duration, it’s not very practical to clone a mob pre-pull so it is going to be a spell that is widely unused. I would love to either see this castable in bear, or have its duration on mobs be increased to 30-60 seconds to give it some value.
  • We haven’t seen Druid conduits yet, but I would love to see a conduit that would decrease the CD of Incarn/Beserk by X for every Y rage we spend similar to Anger Management from Warriors. Having a big CD every 3 minutes is nice, but having it up more frequently would be nicer. This alone would increase bear representation in M+ significantly.
  • Night Fae ability Soulshape needs to let us stay in Bear form if we cast it in Bear. Some times, as with most tanks, there are gaps in mitigation/healer CDs, so having an out is extremely effective at living a pull where you should die. Soulshape feels really great for this, however popping form to cast it feels really bad. Say for instance we are trying to distance ourselves from some mobs on Necrotic week, but there are 1-2 casters/ranged mobs in the pack. We pop Soulshape and we lose the ability to survive the next pack.
  • Night Fae ability Convoke the Spirits seems to value Thrash very little while in Bear form. I haven’t been able to do extensive testing on this, but my last three didn’t even include 1 Thrash in the rotation. This seems like it might be bugged?

Overall Bear Issues Not Related to Beta:

  • Mentioned above about surviving while popping form. This is a problem Bears have had for a while. Being 100% dependent on being in Bear form is rough for our survival in niche circumstances. For instance, in Motherlode, back in Seasons 1-3 when people were skipping the RND section. Most tanks could just mount up and gather the mobs away while the group death ran to the next section, not bears though, because we can’t mount in Bear. We had to speed pot into stampeding roar to cover the distance. If something went wrong, we would have to wait for CDs to attempt this again. And with the changes to consumables in SL, speed pots will be an even bigger problem when grouping mob packs. The same issue came up in non-rogue runs of Tol Dagor where a normal tank could enter the cannon and get healed through a couple of shots. Bears cannot enter vehicles in Bear form so we lose that. I am not 100% on the solution here, but it is a common problem. Maybe let us mount in Bear form similar to how you can mount in Moonkin form?
  • Frenzied Regen on the GCD is really rough. Losing a potentially rage generating GCD to cast a heal that costs rage itself often times gives us further gaps in survival by missing an Ironfur. It’s not just the reaction time of hitting Regen, a tank shouldn’t be as reactive and should prepare to use it, I agree, but not being able to hit our abilities simultaneously feels really bad. This one button I would strongly recommend for consideration of GCD removal.
  • Skull Bash being a charge interrupt is awful. There is a really rough range mechanic to our interrupt that means if we are just outside melee range, we charge in to the center of a mob’s hit box, some times forcing us to take hits to the back. Just last week I was tanking 26 JY and charged in to interrupt a toxic bolt and got melee hit from “behind” from the toxic monstrosity for over 1 mill damage. I have to be extra cautious when interrupting to avoid situations like this. Take Shrine of the Storm as well. I assign interrupts on 3rd boss to our melee dps as it can be lethal to be forced to charge in with my interrupt when the balls are floating around. Same goes for Yazma in AD with the spiders. I have to assign a range interrupt as backup. Easy solution for this, make Skullbash Charge a talent choice in place of Renewal, and either remove Renewal for Bears or make it baseline. It will never be more valuable than charge. I think if you do this, you will see a large % of the playerbase that prefers having a standard interrupt.

Despite the issues with Bear, I love playing it as I also enjoy playing ranged DPS in raid and playing Healer in M+. I play Bear primarily as I like playing multiple specs/roles for content I enjoy without having to do weekly chores across multiple characters. So I play arguably a sub-par tank. I am excited for a lot of potential in SL to improve an already fun tank to play.


I actually like the idea of Druid land travel form being slightly slower than regular mounts because I like using mounts and they’re pretty a much non-choice compared to an instant cast, daze-dismount immune form. I preferred travel when it was a ghost wolf analogue before the mount speed glyph was baselined.

Flight being nerfed though, is baffling. In that case pretty much all flying mounts are very similiar and dismounting pretty much doesnt happen so the Druid advantage is much smaller and choosing a mount instead was a lot more viable particularly with mount equipment. Not sure why this is a lower speed now.


Hey there! Apeu of Area 52 here, longtime resto druid player. Here’s some feedback about things I’ve noticed while playing resto on the beta (mostly night fae but I have a druid in each covenant and have tested them fairly well):

Convoke the spirits

  • This spell has some inconsistencies still; it has used Flourish and Full Moon in their respective forms even though neither spell is listed as usable in the tooltip and can be very swaying in the outcome if either one was to occur at an opportune time.
  • The change that allows us to move while casting is fantastic and has been amazing to play.

Other changes

  • Innervate: the spell’s use is completely unchanged in 5 man content such as mythic+ but now pretty much requires us to use it on a friendly healer while in a raid to max out the benefit.

While this is a cool idea, it falls short in action because this is both our output and mana cooldown, and is now effectively nerfed by 50% in raid and the full benefit is given to someone else on top of that.

There needs to be symbiotic incentive for this spell to go on another player, and not just a simple “buy one, get one 50% off” effect. If it were to continue to be in this form, the minimum it would need to give is the full 12 seconds of free casting to both the druid and their friendly healer, since it effectively is no different than a balance druid’s innervate.

  • Overgrowth: This talent makes zero sense where it has been placed, which is the exact same issue that Stonebark had when it had this slot. Why is a single target heal in a row with varied AoE heals rather than being in the level 15 row? I think it would make sense to make this purely a PvP talent again and give an AoE defensive option in that row (which we don’t have yet) perhaps something that doubles the CD of ironbark but makes its effect a 20 yd radius around the target.

  • Germination: This talent falls short compared to its competitors in the level 50 row. What I think it needs is a passive we used to have that reduced the GCD caused by casting rejuv in order to enhance the blanket-the-raid playstyle (and would be great with the new spreading rejuv legendary)

Thanks for reading and look forward to more upcoming changes and to finally get those conduits! :slight_smile:


Some balance druid feedback.

I haven’t played balance for long, i’ve only ever dabbled with it. However I main ele shaman, aotc each tier since legion, etc, etc.

Playing boomkin on beta has been super fun. The one lackluster thing about the new eclipse system (different than live), is that it doesn’t feel impactful going into an eclipse. On live, you’re astral power goes up, you hit a big starsurge then can press either wrath or starfire. I actually really like the idea of eclipse coming back (reminds me of cata/MOP boomkin–when i pvp’d with it a ton).

All of these idea’s seem pretty good.

I’ve actually always liked boomy, but it is slightly more boring in gameplay than ele (at least for me), but I see the ecipse system as being able to improve upon a linear gameplay. I think having going into an eclipse do something will make it feel more impactful.


Balance is very boring as is. There are a lot of buttons you can press, sure, but the actual eclipse system just feels like an on-rails keep DoT’s up and spam Starsurge into your preferred eclipse window. AoE feels more fun with all the sparkles and increase to DoT duration. But I’m struggling to find something enjoyable with how you rotate in and out of solar/lunar eclipse. No part of the system feels fun because I’m pooling Astral Power to spend on extending my Eclipse that I’m going to be in anyway. There feels like NO payoff with the system as is.


This is intended btw.

Some feedback regarding the Balance druid legendaries that was added in the previous cycle, after having played with it for a week.

Timeworn Dreamcatcher

(aka “ED”)

I’m torn on this. It’s hard to give this legendary a good opinion with such low stats we currently have.

One of the most annoying problems: Convoke the Spirits does not proc a stack of ED (if it casts Starsurge). It would be nice QoL if my first Convoke could setup max stacks (as it will almost always cast 2 SS)

Currently, this legendary is anti-synergistic with some of the issues the spec has, being mostly: Haste scaling.

  • ED, like it’s Legion counterpart, rewarded Haste to a high degree until you were at the point you could comfortable maintain the desirable uptime. However,
  • Starfall still does not scale with haste. It is a flat 11 ticks over 10 seconds (with Stellar Drift) regardless of haste level. No tick rate scaling or partial ticks like many other “over time” effects in the game.
  • So together we essentially get a situation where if you gear for ED, it feels a lot worse to cast Starfall. If you gear not for ED, ED becomes kind of miserable to use.
  • Convoke also doesn’t scale with haste, you cast a static 16 spells over a static 4 seconds. One of those changing to be haste-scaled would be a nice change.

There’s also some anti-synergy in that you don’t actually want to have 100% uptime, because that would imply Starsurging outside of Eclipse, this also sort of leans towards a playstyle not entering an Eclipse before being max AP, even if that means casting abilities that don’t count towards an Eclipse

The ED rotation isn’t fleshed out, so this is all speculative and subject to change, but it currently feels and seems like it will continue to be awkward to use in the class’ current state.

If the intended use case of this legendary is to never be used until second or third tier level of secondaries (when we can have a healthy amount of haste and mastery with no real loss of the other), then this is potentially fine as-is.

Balance Runecarve 3

(The crit-on-entering-Eclipse-legendary)

I won’t lie, this legendary is really satisfying to use. It looks to pair with Convoke ludicrously well too. It feels like our best legendary by a good margin, with Oneth’s being a little bit behind.

However, upon playing with it for most of the week, it became more and more apparently how weird this legendary is to the rotation. Because you gain its benefits on entering Eclipse, you are rewarded for having low duration eclipses to maximize the uptime of the buff.

Disclaimer: The points below may not even be bad design, it’s just food for thought/discussion going forward.

We may end up casting Starfall on single target (with Stellar Drift) – Because we’re rewarded for the shortest length Eclipses, we don’t actually want to cast Starsurge, since it will extend our eclipse and lower the buff’s uptime. The only Starsurges we cast are during Convoke and Incarn/CA

Soul of the Forest becomes a dead talent just by using it – for similar reasons as above, SotF extends our eclipses by default and devalues the legendary by a lot.

Convoking in your CA/Incarn becomes mandatory – Since convoking a regular eclipse will extend to upwards of 30-40 seconds, it’s actually a DPS loss to cast Convoke the Spirits within a non-Incarn/CA window since that’s 30-40 seconds we won’t benefit from the crit buff.

Other minor notes to this build, though:

  • Benefit: Almost 100% uptime on Starfall for permanent movement casting
  • Benefit: It makes our burst DPS unrivaled (particularly ST) with Incarn -> immediate Convoke, similar to how something like double on-use fire mages works now
  • Benefit: Eclipses feel really, really good to enter now
  • Downside: Focusing priority targets with SS lowers our ST dps a fair amount

Going forward

To wrap-up, some notes about potential changes/tweaks/fixes/whatever for the Runecarve legendary stuff I mentioned above.

  • Option 1: Nothing. The legendary does feel good to play and is really powerful, even if it has some weird quirks to it. Diversity isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
  • Option 2: Make the crit scale with duration, instead of decay after X seconds. So instead of 105% decaying every 15%, make it start at 0% and gain something like 2-5% crit per second in an Eclipse. This would reward the (what I assume is) intended gameplay of Eclipses
  • Option 3: Remove the legendary and bake something similar into Eclipses baseline. It’s kind of weird that I need to wear a legendary for Eclipses to feel satisfying to enter.
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Please undo Eclipses, there is still time, current boomkin “rotation” is so much better. Were people asking for Eclipses to be unpruned?

This is a direct blue quote from the shadow priest revamp; “From a gameplay standpoint, this was expressed as building up Insanity, entering Void Form, then battling against decaying Insanity to prolong your time in this powerful state.” Which is being scrapped because it’s not feasible. Eclipse is the same thing…

Build up insanty to enter voidform – cast spells to enter eclipse
Battle against decay to prolong voidform – battle against astral power to prolong eclipse

New legendaries are already messing with elipse, making you want to leave it for the next one asap instead of prolonging, very counter-intuitive. It’s already a problem. Revert the mastery, I beg you.


Blizzard class developers do NOT intercommunicate with each other.

Very insightful.

Except you use Astral Power to prolong Eclipse.

Yes. Which means the legendary should be changed. In addition, there needs to be some reinforcement to extending Eclipse beyond raw damage output. Something like a ramping buff – but not through a legendary. A ramping mechanic needs to be baseline.

Eclipse works fine. They just need to nerf Stellar Drift and roll that damage into Moonfire and Sunfire DOT damage. That will cover a bunch of single-target issues. Then they need to add a spell from Torghast as a PVP talent -> Reduce the spell casts needed to trigger Eclipse by 1 (down to 1).


As a long time feral player. I feel taking away the 2 charges of survival instinct is unnecessary, yet I understand if you want to make the distinction between feral and guardian.
That being said, with you taking away regrowth from our rotation (with bloodtalon), I feel you need to give us something else in return. I always see that regrowth as a part of our rotation helps our survivability and one of our many unnoticeable trait.

As many have mentioned above, ferals are very lacking in terms of utility compare to balance. Stampeding Roar are more of a luxury than a necessity, while ‘innervate’ is counted as a raid cooldown during boss encounter.

Casting rebirth as meele can be problematic during raid encounter, since we will not be at range a lot of times, balance/resto fills this roles better. And since rebirth/brez is a shared cooldown amongst other classes, I wouldnt classify this as a class utility, more of a raid-utility.
Comparing ourselves with other meele, we simply don’t bring enough to raid. We don’t have soak (like rogues,dh). We don’t bring buff (warrior,monk,dh). I don’t understand why you refuse to give us ‘leader of the pack’ and introduce a raid scroll like you did for battleshout.

Feral also requires substantial amount of crit to make their rotation smoother, with new sets of gear and us having low crit, this will affect our dps severely. I hope you don’t repeat what happened during BFA launch.


Predatory swiftness is still there, you still can use regrowth in your rotation. But with rework of bt you use it directly when needed for survivability. So please not again this “healing for dps” nonsence.

Still dunno why they have taken away ability to instantcast it via predatory swiftness.


Some feedback regarding the Balance druid overall after playing on beta for a 2-3 weeks.

  • T15:

    • In my opinion Nature’s Balance is in okay position, especially with 50ap bonus at the start of the combat, the ap generation that comes from this talent is weak and should be buffed in some way or even reversed to pre nerf version.

    • Warrior of Elune fits well with the eclipse system, but it wasnt a talent to go for balance druid for a long time now, and it should get some love or should be replaced with something else that would give eclipses something special (for example cleave to wrath). I dont see in what scenario this talent could be better the Nature’s Balance or Force of Nature

    • Force of Nature is great ability that fits in druid fantasy. Good utillity spell, but weak in terms of dps gain. Potentially it should get some tweaks, for example if you cast that spell 10yd from opponents the treants start to cast starfire or wrath (depends on number of foes).

  • T25: Movement row, all talents have their niche and are great to play.

  • T30: I am happy with all changes here.

  • T35:

    • Mighty Bash and Mass Entanglement are good in terms of utillity that those 2 spells provides for balance druid.
    • Heart of the Wild is something that in my opinion should be in baseline of the class, it’s a long 5 min cd, on gcd and its really situational. I would add that spell to the baseline and in place of that talent give something that would reduce the cd of solar beam by 15s for example.
  • T40:

    • Soul of the Forest: In my opinion it’s interesting talent, but i don’t think that it can compete with other 2 in this row. Maybe adding the reduction of the starfall cost is a way to fix that problem or you could add something that would make eclipses more fun to be in.

    • Starlord is a stable choice for balance druid when we need some additional haste buff, I like how It determine our rotation.

    • Incarnation: great and very powerful 3min cd, nothing to add here.

  • T45:

    • Stellar Drift: great talent, fun to play. Additional 2sec duration + extra 25% dmg to starfall is great combined with the movement, its even better.

    • Twin moons: This is the talent that I have the most concerns about. It just feels like It should be in baseline. If starfall will be in good spot balance druid will never use that talent and vice versa If moonfire will be good and starfall weak (like in bfa) we wont use Stellar Drift. My idea to fix this problem is make it baseline and provide a talent that will buff our st in some way or something new to starfall or replace this talent with Warrior of Elune talent in T15.

    • Stellar Flare It’s another dot to manage and It feels boring to play, strongly ST talent.

  • T50

    • Shooting Stars: It’s a talent that remains passive and after the nerf can’t compete with Fury of Elune (even on ST) In my opinion the nerf should be undo.

    • Fury of Elune: it’s nice, fun to press cooldown, great on aoe.

    • New Moon: Next abillity that should be in baseline. We didn’t use it in BFA and it won’t change in SL. First of all it should be Astral damage not Arcane and the recharge rate should scale with haste.

Legendary Items:

  • Oneth’s Clear Vision: It was great legendary back in legion, but with changes implemented to Starfall it’s not that great anymore. The nerf makes it even worse. Fun to play but I think that It won’t work in new balance playstyle.

  • Primordial Arcanic Pulsar: Great legendary it terms of improving balance rotation. 400 AP with nerfs to all of our’s builders is a bit too much. (Maybe it should be 300-350AP).

  • Druid Balance Runcarve 3 (aka crit legendary): The best legendary so far. It makes our rotation on aoe great, in terms of single target starfall on ST is not that bad, especially with Stellar Drift talent, but I see that people can be a little suspicious about that. This legendary item is how eclipse system should work in my opinion. We should constantly “balance” between the two eclipses and not trying to extend one to infinite value (same problem that Spriest had)

  • Timeworn Dreamcatcher: I don’t see when we could use this legendary. It should be replaced with the Torghast Anima Power: Orbit Breaker.

I think that all of these conduits are good, except the 8% chance for extending an eclipse or dots. I’m really looking forward to see how they scale with ranks.

It’s really hard to compare all covenant spells to each other, because from how they look, they are meant to use in different situation. In my opinion Convoke is by far the most fun one, Kyrian is the most boring one. In terms of Kyrian covenant I would really love to see abillity that was provided in place of this covenant when we were playing Torghast in early stage of Alpha. It looked great.


  • Balance is in good spot. Starfall change was great and I really look forward to use it in dungeons :joy:.
  • I (and many other balance druids that are playing ) would love to see Twin Moons and New Moon in baseline. Those talents feels like they should be in normal toolkit of moonboy.
  • I would really love to see that Timeworn Dreamcatcher is replaced with Orbit Breaker.
  • The abillity that was in place of Kyrian Covenant spell in Alpha stage of Torghast seems cool, I guess that i could be use for a talent or extra spell for Boomkin.

I might be piling on a bit here, but wanted to add some thoughts on Guardian after testing it for a few weeks. I know we’re probably pretty late in the beta cycle for significant overhaul, so trying to think of this through the lens of what can be done relatively easily. Also not too concerned with tuning at this point.


  • I think Guardian has a problem around why should I bring a bear over any other tank, and making stampeding and incapacitating roar baseline for the class has further eroded what little uniqueness Guardian had. Heart of the Wild with some additional tuning could be the answer for raid tanking, a tank that actually does decent damage when not actively tanking, but in M+ I’m really left at a loss. Hopefully some of my other points along the way can help out.

  • I think the comparison between Guardian and other tanks is made even worse by the deliberate design improvements made to the other tanks (specifically compared to Blood, Protection Paladin, and Brewmaster) to help address weaknesses. Guardian has remained rather stagnate while the rest of the tank community has evolved, and it wasn’t exactly in a wonderful shape at the end of BFA.

  • There are some immediate gaps in the spec design that could help out. Right now bears feel exceptionally weak at the start of the pull until they can get the rage to start rolling Ironfurs. I wonder if bringing back Enrage can help smooth out the start of pulls and ensure you have a chunk of rage to start with.

  • It is also very problematic that Guardian has no snares in their kit, which makes them unique among other tanks.

  • One possible solution to address Guardian’s identity crisis is to maybe push them to be strong in single target tanking, such as in raids and tyrannical M+. One way to do this is to make Pulverize baseline. This could help flush out the rather boring rotation of mangle and thrash spam.

  • Guardian feels punished for it’s hybrid nature since its mitigation is tied to bear form. This is especially true for situations like having to mount, or using spells like Soulshape that force you out of bear form.

  • A lot of the generic class components (Legendaries, Covenant abilities) seem to play into druid being a dot / hot class, but that doesn’t seem to exist for bears. I wonder if more emphasis could be put on our dots and hots to make it the spec fit in more with the class as a whole.


  • Brambles feels bad. Even if the damage is buffed significantly, the interaction with the rest of the kit is lackluster. I don’t know if I want to turn one of my few defensive cooldowns into an offensive one. Keeping with the passive nature of the slot, I think replacing it with Bloody Paws from the artifact both gives druids a snare and a more interesting talent choice (ability to kite, passive rage, or burst rage).

  • I think a lot about the level 25 row. I think Wild Charge and Renewal are a good trade off in mobility and survivability, but tiger’s dash seems like the odd one out as it forces you out of bear form. I’m really not sure what the solution is here. Maybe a talent that lets you use Dash in Bear Form would be better and help in situations where you’d want to mount in bear form.

  • I generally like the changes to the affinity talents. While losing the ability to run both vortex and typhoon does hurt (and further buff Moonkin and Restoration over Feral / Guardian), it’s not the end of the world. I do like the choices in this talent row, although feral (and maim) seem the most lacking. Perhaps it’s the “I want to deal damage” choice of the row, but having to go into cat form to use maim is very punishing. I wonder if making Stampeding Roar unique to Feral and giving it as the option in Feral Affinity would work. Would be a little painful to lose it as Guardian (but could be addressed by giving baseline guardian more mobility), but it feels like it’s on that power level. I think the other options would have to be around giving feral more utility in some other way (Vanish or Shroud) and put it in that Maim slot.

  • I feel like Heart of the Wild needs a tuning pass. As a five minute cooldown, it doesn’t feel like it’s going to help out make Guardian feel more like it’s affinity role since it’s only going to be up once or twice in raid, and very difficult to use in M+. I wonder if turning it into a passive (swapping slots with Mighty Bash) and nerfing the effect is the way to go. The choice becomes do I want to be better in my off spec role (for raids, mostly), or have additional control of Bash / Entanglement.

  • I wonder if Mass Entanglement and Typhoon should swap across the class? Mass Entangle becoming baseline to balance (Affinity) and Typhoon being the 35 talent choice. I’m not sure what the balance implications are since I don’t play Balance very much.

  • Galactic Guardian and Soul of the Forest both seem to be at odds with each other for passive rage generation. I wonder if Soul of the Forest could be retuned as a cooldown reduction for Berserk. Having Berserk on a 3 minute cooldown feels very frustrating in M+ when most other specs are built around 2 minutes. It’d certainly make it more interesting choice of passive talent with galactic guardian, more frequent berserks with soul, and more powerful berserk with Incarnation.

  • I think the 45 row is fine, and just needs a tuning pass.

  • For the 50 row, I think Lunar Beam needs to move with you as it’s too easy to fire it and have it do very little. I think Rend and Tear is fine, if a little boring. And like I said, I think Pulverize should be made baseline. I think Rage of the Sleeper is a good fill in for this talent slot, perhaps just the base version that has DR + Thorns. It runs the risk of making Lunar Beam obsolete, but Lunar Beam also needs a big tuning pass.


  • For being a generic legendary, Druid Runecarve 4 does very little to help the spec. Perhaps if Moonfire was given a passive DR attached to it and have that buffed by the legendary it’d help? Or perhaps Thrash needs to be added to the list?

  • I feel like Legacy of the Sleeper does not capture the fantasy of bringing back Rage of the Sleeper from Legion. To me, the joy of Rage of the Sleeper was giving the spec another cooldown to plan around. Baking it into Berserk just further pushes us into a 3 minute window where we’re strong and feel weak outside of it.

  • Guardian Runecarve 1 and 3 (Luffa Wrappings + Pawsitive Outlook) seem to be trying to do the same thing. I’m not sure why I’d want both of these legendaries are they both try to vaguely improve the value of thrash. I wonder if one of these should be removed / merged into the other, and a new legendary should be added that focuses on Frenzied Regeneration, perhaps buffing it’s duration.

  • I also think that the Legion legendary helm, back, and survival instinct ring are good options here

Covenant Abilities:

  • I am struck by how boring Kindred Spirits is. I think there are some interesting ideas behind it in raids, but in M+ / soloing I often forget it exists. I think that removing the requirement to create a bond ahead of time would make it feel much more dynamic, especially in M+.

  • I think Convoke the Spirits and Ravenous Frenzy are okay, especially after the changes that were made.

  • Adapative Swarm is another effect that seems to punish Guardian’s lack of focus on dots / hots. Frenzied Regeneration seems to be the optimal way to play this, but the very short duration on FR makes that difficult, and the very low damage of our dots makes the dps component lackluster.

Thanks, sorry for the long text block.