FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

I agree with the remarks made about the Balance druid throughout this forum. The eclipse system just doesn’t feel great IMO. I recently spoke to a few players about possible solutions. This was not my original idea, but when I heard it… I felt it was too good not to share… Maybe after entering an eclipse, you were able to cast a “signature eclipse” ability upon entering that eclipse. I believe the conversation led to something similar to the “New Moon” artifact ability from legion. Even though it’s a talent on live and seems to be a talent for Shadowlands… Maybe instead implement a piece of that ability into the eclipse rotation and once you align both with Celestial Alignment, maybe it becomes both spells combined? Just an idea. I feel that might help spice up the spec a bit more. It just feels BLEH right now from spamming Wrath and Starfire.

To be clear I would like to keep the eclipse’s, but maybe redone a bit. I’d like more control over what eclipse I’m going in, rather going back and forth playing ping pong with them. Most casters have signature AOE and ST spells. This feels like you’re forcing Boomkin players to use AOE when not needed and vice versa. Just feels strange esp when Starfire has a longer cast time than wrath.

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But we dont need an additional spell since the whole point of the eclipse system is to empower the spells we have

Could be worse, could be arcane mage and basically cast 2-3 spells, where we have at least 5

We do have a form of control, one that is much better than launch alpha, and it is still much similar to the classic balance druid rotation we had many years ago. You start combat and from there you can pick what you want to start with and then you just go from there. It would break the whole point if you could just only empower what you wanted: Wrath during solo bosses or Lunar during AoE.

It’s not so much that we are being forced to use an AoE spell, many classes have moves that affect AoE that are a part of their basic rotation, and Lunar strike has always had a longer cast time than Wrath because of the AoE hit and it also deals more damage than Wrath

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I think this also touches on an interesting dilemma as well. You’re right. On first read to me, this felt like the ‘coolest’ of the Druid abilities, which is great. The Night Fae and Druids thematically SHOULD fit together, so the idea of being able to go overdrive with Nature was awesome at first glance.

This works mostly as expected in a ST situation. In an AoE situation, it becomes very Feast or Famine. It may seem that you want Thrash to go off a bunch in an AoE situation, but honestly not really. The ST portion of thrash is pretty negligible and you really only want it going off once.

What it boils down to is this kind of set of bullet points:

  • In a single target situation, if Moonfire/rake roll a bunch of times, suddenly you’ve literally done nothing, maybe even screwed up some of your cycles.

  • In an AoE situation the spell feels even worse. Suddenly you’re hoping for dots to get as spread out as possible. If a bunch of wraiths/shreds get dumped into the same target its just annoying.

  • In a different, less relevant, vein. In Bear form it is inconsistent as a defensive ability and a DPS ability. It really just reads “Gain 0-8 stacks of Ironfur(I’ve gotten procs where it just spammed thrash and gave me one stack) and do some AoE damage” It just doesn’t feel good to press. In resto I understand having the HoTs get spread out, but either replace Ironfur with Mangle or add some consistency to the defensive aspect of this spell for Bears.

“Appropriate Targets” just doesn’t feel “Appropriate” sometimes. This spell also has more throughput as Balance because shred/rake just won’t go off if you aren’t in melee range like Wraith/Moonfire will for Feral.

I understand the ‘weighting’ system is supposed to help mitigate that, but its yet ANOTHER place where Feral seems like its being forgotten in favor of Balance spec design.

TL:DR; even 16 damage spells in a row doesn’t matter if they are all Moonfire.

I would like to see some weighting where ‘appropriate target’ factors in whether the target has a DoT on it already or not.

To keep the flavor of the spell, I am actually not advocating for having Wraith/Moonfire work only in their respective forms. I think that Shred/Rake should have their range requirements removed during the spell and allow it to apply them anywhere.

If there are say 4 targets infront of me and I am in Balance at max range, after all 16 spells have cast, all 4 should have a fresh moonfire on them, one or two should have rake, and the rest should be Wraith/Shred/etc.

EDIT: I went and started doing Ardenweald as Feral after writing this post. I will say I jumped the gun a little on this feedback. It seems with the changes that the spell is context sensitive to targets around you which makes it much more of an attractive spell. I can’t tell exactly how things are weighted, but it will prefer applying DoTs/Refreshing low DoTs over the ST spells, and will cast Thrash more if there are more targets around you.

With 3 targets, all of them ended up with Moonfire/Rake and it used thrash more than against a single target. WIth 8 targets, it literally just spammed Thrash.

I WILL say that having thrash in there just feels bad still on its own. Replace it with either Mangle or Swipe?

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I’m just here to say that after getting used to it, Bloodtalons feels great. Truly. I don’t know if this is the best possible iteration it’s going to see, but I found myself raiding on retail this weekend and thinking, “I miss the other Bloodtalons.” What a delight it was to realize “the other Bloodtalons” is not something I’ve lost, but something I’ll be gaining.

The fact that I see feedback posted here and then, a week later, those exact changes made in-game is phenomenal. I see the hard work y’all are doing and I hope it’s the same for all specs and classes. (In particular, Guardian druids) Thank you!

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I’m not a fan of eclipses coming back, especially for pvp, I think the current iteration is much better for a fluid rotation. Also was Ironfeather Armor honor talent removed on purpose? Not sure why we’re losing things during an unpruning, I was excited to be able to play that with cyclone baseline.

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Just also echoing that I dislike the eclipse system returning after trying it out. It may be that the reward/payoff for going in to an eclipse isn’t quite there yet but I prefer the burst empowerment of BFA over that of cycling between two states in Shadowlands.

Cycling is tactical at first but turns in to an awkward restriction as repetition sets in. At least in BFA I can essentially load my gun and go in blastin’. In Shadowlands I feel like I have to find the bullets, load the correct bullet, be locked in to that type of bullet and then I can start blastin’.

I get that eclipse may also make sense thematically but even that is a symptom of Night Elf / Moonkin dominance in the spec being applied universally. If anything the Thronspeakers connecting more with growth/decay, rather than eclipses/astrology, have shown a different kind of balance that doesn’t fit the current narrative.

If the Eclipse theme/lore is a barrier then I just wanted to highlight that the spec itself may need an identity audit; so please do go wild and don’t feel restricted. Currently it feels ever more like a “galaxy mage” and has drifted away from its master of nature (hurricane, bursting seeds, rapid growth…etc) roots.

“Times change” (#Garrosh_Hellscream voice) with the introduction of more races and cultures as well (Kul’Tiran and Zandalari). This may be an opportunity to grow the identity of the spec while not being beholden to systems of old.

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Thanks for all the feedback on Convoke the Spirits. It will have a further update in an upcoming build, focused on being oriented more around shapeshift forms, and including higher-value spells associated with each particular form.

Most importantly, the spell list is redesigned. It is no longer the same in every form.
–Spells included in every form: Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Rake, Thrash
–Caster form only: Wild Growth, Swiftmend
–Cat form only: Ferocious Bite, Shred, Tiger’s Fury
–Bear form only: Mangle, Ironfur
–Moonkin form only: Starsurge, Starfall

When used in any given form, spells assocatied with that form’s role are strongly favored.
Starsurge, Starfall, and Ferocious Bite don’t cost resources. Swiftmend doesn’t remove a HoT. Ferocious Bite does maximum damage. Self-buffs that don’t stack (Tiger’s Fury, Starfall) won’t overwrite themselves.

A bit of discussion about this ability–one dilemma with it is that while it actually chooses abilities somewhat smartly, it can’t claim to do so perfectly smartly. So the tooltip doesn’t promise to always choose the optimal ability, but in reality it does much better than random chance. Some things that were true in prior iterations, and still true now:
–Spells that apply a DoT or HoT are favored on targets that don’t already have it, and generally won’t reapply to targets that do (some exception for Wild Growth).
–It won’t aggro new creatures that aren’t in combat
–It won’t break CC
–Heals will be more favored relative to other spells if there are lower-HP targets
–Thrash is used more often in Bear Form than in Cat Form

As always, let us know how it feels on alpha.

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Okay. But a lot of us are really concerned that you’re spending so much time on Druids in Torghast, or Druids and covenants, and you haven’t done anything in regards to baseline design for Guardian.

We’ve given very detailed feedback on Guardian, there’s even more feedback on the Druid forum, there have been a lot of blue posts in this thread (more than any other class thread) and Guardian feedback has been completely ignored.

What is going on with Guardian?

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These changes sound good, but is there any chance we could channel it while moving? That cat and bear favor melee spells is going to be awkward when stuff moves (or if we have to move things as a tank). Especially in PvP where people will just run away right when the channel starts.

And on a random, unrelated side note, I just wanted to float an idea for Lunar Inspiration. What if the talent was renamed to Blood Moon, and caused cat form Moonfire to do bleed damage?

The talent has always been somewhat niche, and has become even more so since bleeds started scaling from haste too. If cat Moonfire scaled off all the stats as well, it might make it more (maybe too?) competitive on cleave/council type fights, and maybe even single target situations with downtime/movement.

Also, red moonfare would just be fun.

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  • Will it casting a rejuv while in boomkin form take you out of boomkin form?
  • With it prioritizing healing spells when targets are lower on health does it become a dps gain to wait until the raid is close to topped before using Convoke of Spirits as boomkin?
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When I have used it in Torghast in balance spec, I was never taken out of moo kin form when any of the abilities were used.

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To touch on this a little. How does this work when there’s a single rooted target nearby? Especially if we have the 300% Roots Torgast ability on it.

If there’s exactly 1 target and I press this button, I want it to take damage. Especially if I’m rolling around with Balance Affinity. Testing shows that it doesn’t

Also this. What’s going on with Feral? More and more melee are getting “Bring this melee” raid buffs, with Enhancement getting Windfury Totem.

Why is LotP not Baseline again for Bears/Cats?

Some feedback around this for Feral. The entire spec currently is centered around resource management. This becomes a VERY complicated button to press in the current iteration. The channel alone already caps your energy just from natural regen almost from not using globals. Between all the Combo Points, The Energy from Tiger’s Fury, etc, it becomes a pain to know the best time to press it.

You pretty much just want an empty energy bar and 0 Combo Points, because you’re coming out with TF up, 5 CP, and a full energy bar now.

Also having FB into this just leans even harder into Sabertooth. Can we please talk about options other than Sabertooth, change it, or just nerf it so it isn’t the “Optimal” playstyle.

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Gonna keep beating the drum on wanting substantial Guardian changes! We know you guys are listening to feedback, considering the changes you’ve made to other classes, so please, please, please, we are -begging- you for some fundamental changes to Guardian.

If we aren’t going to get any then at least let us know that so we can stop hoping.

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Various changes in an upcoming build:

Feral: Various talents are buffed numerically, to try to open up some choices a bit (Feral Frenzy, Lunar Inspiration, Savage Roar), as well as a baseline buff to Rip that’s related to the below discussion.

One notable talent is nerfed: Sabertooth. This has been the subject of much discussion in feedback. While we like the idea of a talent in this slot that simplifies the rotation somewhat, we generally agree that infinite Rip extension has a lot of downsides. It additionally tends to cause balance problems, as an infinitely-extended snapshot-buffed Rip tends to outpace other options for sustained damage. Sabertooth will extend Rip by a smaller amount–keeping a similar mechanic to now, but requiring it to still be occasionally used on a single target.

Relatedly, we’re adjusting Bloodtalons to make it easier to proc–we’ve seen a lot of feedback that sequencing Rake, Shred and Thrash that tightly is a big hassle when you have competing interests of when you need to refresh your Bleeds, when you have a lot of energy, when you need to use a finisher, and so on. Trying to find the sweet spot where it’s not too onerous to use, but still provides a reward for planning your rotation.

Balance: Notably in this build, starting Eclipse requires 2 spells rather than 3. Doesn’t require a big explanation, but should be strongly felt. In particular, the windup at the start of combat is much shorter (especially when you can precast 1 of the 2 spells).

We’re also trying a version of Celestial Alignment that’s not extendable to arbitrary duration; it was simply going to cause nearly certain balance problems later on. It is now a fixed-duration cooldown that still provides a large damage increase.

Thanks for any feedback, please let us know how this all goes.

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Are you joking? At this point, the fact that you literally will not reply to any posts about Guardian, or even make any comment on the state of it, even after pages upon pages of feedback tells me you’re just not going to fix anything.

I’m really upset that instead of just answering literally one piece of Guardian-related feeback -IN THE DRUID FEEDBACK THREAD- you all continue to just ignore the spec in its entirety.

We are PLEADING with you to PLEASE provide us SOMETHING about the direction Guardian is going in. It isn’t fun to play right now because of all the reasons we’ve already given you! Why won’t you answer literally a single thing about this??

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First off. I want to say thank you. A lot of these changes are moving in the right direction. I do want to touch on a few outstanding points as far as what still feels like its missing.

Bloodtalons:
I love the 5 second change. I do want to touch on the fact that Swipe feels like its missing from the pool of key abilities. This comes in three places. The final one being the largest impact.

  1. In an AoE situation, Pressing Shred to activate Bloodtalons just ‘feels’ wrong. You naturally find yourself reaching for Swipe but have to stop yourself and it breaks the flow.
  2. In an ST situation, especially under Incarn, you find yourself dumping abilities rather quickly. Thrash is well outside of snapshot range and i find myself wishing I could just swipe instead. This is minor.
  3. This is the most important one. Say I’m in my opener, or more commonly just recently used Incarn. Now I have a very nicely snapshotted Rake. Well suddenly near the end of my Incarn I refreshed my boosted rake, then hit bite. Ok. Now I need to reactivate Bloodtalons. Well trying to activate it would mess up my fresh 200% rake. This feels bad.

Lets talk raid buffs and utility. Seriously. The most glaring example here is that Balance was given Stampede, but Feral was not given Innervate. Parity would be appreciated here. On that same note. Melee like Monk/DH have raid buffs that are almost considered “key”. I’m not asking for LotP exactly as is. Bring it in line, but give people a reason to be excited about having a Feral Druid around over us being just a meme.

The last little bit might be an oversight, or just something that wasn’t put into the most recent built. Much of what you mentioned is already in Alpha. However the Lunar Inspiration changes don’t seem to be in. LI has some serious scaling issues. Please make sure this isn’t overlooked.

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This is a step in the right direction for Eclipse. A class mechanic that requires less ramp up time than before is always a good thing (especially during questing, it felt really awful during Alpha). But now I have a concern about the downtime after going through both Eclipse types; now that we’re entering them faster. Obviously I haven’t been able to test this Eclipse change, but perhaps maybe have the internal cooldown of the rotating eclipses be 20-35 seconds, instead of 30. Or have the system scale with haste by having Starsurge or Starfall reduce the internal cooldown by 0.5 for each time you use those spells. Just some reactionary suggestions of course, but this is good progress for Balance.

I’ll report back with how it feels later! Thanks for the feedback Sigma!

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Yea, it might be good if BT was changed so using any 3 combo builders in a row would trigger it. Not only would this open up different combo options as you said, it could also be an indirect buff to LI if moonfare counted towards BT.

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I’m glad Feral is getting some attention, but numerical buffs aren’t going to fix core issues with feral. Part of the issues are the low damage output and the gamble here seems that higher numbers are going to make it more interesting to play. However, the key question remains: why bring a feral over a rogue? The answer should start with a change to how feral works and then tuning numbers.
How do we fix feral? It’s hard to say, but a few suggestions have been brought up:

  • Better utility, limited alt role performance
  • An emphasis on shapeshifting

It seems too late to make changes, but this is how I feel about feral. My druid will likely gather more dust for a third expansion because it’s just not fun to play.

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I am hopeful Beta will allow more people access to these forums to keep complaining about how lackluster Guardian is. I’m sure people are tired of seeing my posts, but I’m not the only one who feels this way.

Feedback on Druid from EU

You can clearly see that the EU folks are just as frustrated with this as we are, and yet nothing is being done about it.

Please, please please please, just tell us “hey, we can’t talk about it right now but there will be some changes to Guardian coming in a few builds from now” or just flat out -respond- and tell us that nothing is changing and we should just get used to it.

SOME kind of response to Guardians is warranted.

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