FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

The problem with Nourish goes beyond this. If you are wanting to play a reactive style resto druid for whatever reason, Nourish is not the talent you would take. It’s attempted (but failed) selling point is that it receives a triple benefit from mastery (this means you need to prep your hots to use it “effectively” - if you are casting it on targets with less than 3 hots, it is flat garbage compared to spamming regrowth).

Explanation - A lot of testing has been done on this, I’ll briefly give the recap. Regrowth’s instant heal vs Nourish with an average statline and three hots, results in regrowth doing more healing per cast time than Nourish, and only slightly less healing per mana (so, more healing for a very small extra mana cost). And note that compare does not take into account the regrowth hot portion at ALL, so any time the hot isn’t immediately overridden, will benefit regrowth even more, widening the gap.

If layering hots is your jam, going above 3 hots on a player will put Nourish ahead, but at that point CW is the better option.

Not only is it awful for all “playstyles” (it isn’t even fun), but for the competitive comparison it falls flat on it’s face… AND you’re giving up a talent for it… it definitely needs tuned. (But for me personally, is lowest of my concerns since I enjoy the other two talents on the row, just adding some addition clarity to the talent discussion)

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Ye. It’s a bait talent that leans into a certain type of gameplay yet isn’t the best performer in the row when you want that type of gameplay anyway.

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Thanks Broccoliz for explaining it better than I could

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Some other things I find odd about the version of Nourish they chose is that when Nourish was originally added to the game, it was the efficient heal I believe.

Looking up its original mana cost, it was 18% base mana (but we probably had much better mana returns at the time), regrowth was 28% and healing touch was 33%. Nourish also originally had a 1.5 second cast time in WotLK. It also only required one HoT to receive its full bonus (edit: but had a glyph to add additional scaling with multiple HoTs).

So this version of Nourish isn’t super efficient without significant mastery + multiple HoTs, and has the PvP talented versions longer cast time of 2 seconds without any of the benefits that that version of nourish had.

The only version of Nourish that had a 2 second cast time was the BfA talent I believe which was:

Heals a friendly target for (360% of Spell power) and automatically applies one of your missing healing over time spells to the target. If all of them are present, Nourish critically heals.

If they wanted to bring back oldschool Nourish, it should be reduced to 1.5 second cast time and have the mana cost reduced to be competitive with regrowth + abundance.

edit: Even if it was only double mastery or had a fixed bonus that just needed 1 HoT like the old version, I think a 1.5 second nourish that was cheap would feel better than a spell that can potentially become a massive nuke heal IF you stack a ton of mastery AND a target happens to already have a bunch of HoTs up when they take big damage and you finally feel like the stars aligned and casting nourish actually feels like the correct choice.

Edit: I guess it was 2.5 seconds in cata and cata also removed Nourish consuming omen procs. In cata was when they did the all healers have 3 main direct heals thing. Nourish became the slow efficient heal, regrowth was the flash heal and healing touch was the slow big heal.

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Did some testing with the new Forgeborne Reveries.

Base Heirmir Increase
No Ironfur 1648 1697 2.97%
1 Stack Ironfur 2809 2928 4.24%
2 Stack Ironfur 3970 4159 4.76%
3 Stack Ironfur 5131 5390 5.05%

So Ironfur does indeed double dip on the bonus.

Once again, quick note on some recent changes to Convoke the Spirits since they can be hard to see immediately in-game. In addition to once again casting 16 spells for Balance, Feral, and Guardian—Convoke will now try to use a more consistent number of certain spells (currently, Starsurge and Ferocious Bite). Its behavior is, as always, influenced by various factors such as the number of targets in range, and their health and DoT status. But (when in a relevant shapeshift form), the number of casts of Starsurge and Ferocious Bite during a channel of Convoke will have much less variance than before.

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Why did every spec except resto get this change to Convoke?

Because convoke was already busted for resto, bro.

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So, if this change is going to be made to make spec specific tuning to make Night Fae more attractive to Feral/Balance/Guardian, while excluding Resto from the buff, why was the reverse not also done? It does nothing to address the fact that Night Fae is the only really viable covenant for Resto - shouldn’t Resto be given spec specific tuning buffs for the other 3 covenants to make it more of a viable choice.

If that’s not going to happen, because Resto doesn’t matter, you should have just let Resto get the 16 spell Convoke - the spec is certainly lacking from a raid throughput and damage perspective currently.

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Maybe buff adaptive swarm for resto?!

I like the idea of it, but deciding between that and convoke, which is a big versatile cooldown + necros traits are all meh while night fae has multiple attractive traits… :frowning:

Exactly, resto having to compete with healers like disc and rsham is already a huge crutch and things like this don’t help whatsoever.

I have used it a few times on the beta now since this hotfix and it still decides on using wrath/moonfire (up to 5 damage casts) when there are injured targets nearby.

I can’t be the only one that’s bummed about Berserk not doing anything for feral AOE anymore? Since Berserk went from 50% energy cost reduction to just buffing shred and rake, it’s basically useless in aoe. Since it’s a raw +60% damage on rake and shred, couldn’t it do 60% on swipe and thrash too?

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I am glad its going to 16 again. I love the flurry of spells. Heck I would take a longer cooldown for even more spells. Its a feel good press of hot damn what just happen.
I really hope this pushed it to being at least second best for balance because I want to use this covenant.

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Feral will, once again, be the bottom of the barrel spec. They might see some pvp arena action but thats about it. Sure you might see those “well i top meters in my subpar groups” it rly does no justice for feral.
Just another dead pve spec for the next xpac with very bad talent choices and bad playstyle, especially with aoe.
Blizz didn’t listen, again.

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Reporting bug on Vision of Unending Growth, rejuv spreader legendary for resto druid.

Originally the proc chance for this legendary was 2%, but it got buffed to be 2.5% (tooltip also says 2.5%). However, after meeting with 11 druids in Oribos and spamming rejuv while monitoring procs via a weak aura, we can confirm this change did not get implemented or was reverted accidentally.

Our test totaled 7200 rejuv ticks for a total of 146 procs, or 2.02% proc chance.

Please double check this one and get that 2.5% buff in there, if you can :smiley: (We all also reported in game via the bug report)

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This should be an easy fix (rejuv spreader legendary). Please fix it before SL launch or fix the tooltip if this is the intended number.

Oh trust me you aren’t the only one. Feral’s biggest weakness is M+ because of how crappy Feral burst AoE is. As in it’s non existent. And a big cause of that is how terrible Berserk is in AoE. It’s sometimes mind blowing to me how bad the class dev team is. Literally just giving Thrash/Swipe some kind of Stealth modifier just like Rake/Shred would help remedy some of this to make Berserk “somewhat” less trash in AoE.

Our AoE in general is just a mess though. PW should be baseline and be a unique bleed to allow balancing Rip/PW damage separately while giving us access to an AoE Finisher without having to talent for it.

It’s pretty easy to see that the two go to “meta” Energy/CP based specs going into SL both have AoE finishers baseline (Sub/Outlaw) while the 2 undesirable specs don’t (Feral/Sin).

But yeah it’s pretty sad. Feral’s issues could be fixed so easily. Give Berserk stealth modifiers on Thrash/Swipe. Make some form of PW baseline as well as making it a unqiue bleed to not overwrite Rip and then re-work our AoE row.

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I’ve wondered too how they could fix feral. Do feral mains feel like its just a throughput problem? I personally just find the spec stressful and not fun, on top of the fact that I have t work really really hard to just do the same amount of damage as any other class that has 3 buttons.

Maybe one of the most complex rotations in the game should be rewarded with slightly better output? Or at least be competitive? I dunno. Those are the things keeping me away from Feral anyway.

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They could largely fix Feral by giving Berserk value in AoE and making PW baseline. Then re-work the AoE talent row so that we have access to some forms of burst AoE. They could even design the entire AoE talent row to work in conjunction with baseline Primal Wrath. Like say Brutal Slash does x% more damage to targets affected with Primal Wrath. Then a talent where after using Primal Wrath your next Ferocious Bite will hit up to 5 additional targets for x% reduced dmg (similar to how Blade Flurry works) etc.

I’m not asking for Feral to be some kind of Combusting Fire Mage levels of AoE burst, but as it stands we have zero AoE burst what so ever which is why we are so bad in M+.

This is even more of a problem with the new Prideful affix because Pride’s on beta are essentially used to enable your group to either A) Burn boss or B) Do huge trash pulls. Feral brings basically no value for those big trash pulls where specs that have burst AoE are way more valuable/desirable. Making PW baseline and giving Berserk AoE value would not affect our ST/PvP performance whatsoever, it would just help bring us up to par with other specs in M+.

Even in raid the “sustained AoE” dmg profile is pretty bad. Usually on boss fights where there are adds, you want specs that can blow them up quickly. It’s why Frost DK for example has always been so strong in raids for fights that have AoE because Frost DK’s have probably the highest AoE burst in the game. So again these changes would just help us to have a slightly better dmg profile for M+ and raid fights that largely favor burst AoE. Cuz as it stands it’s not like we are top tier in any kind of niche. It would be one thing if we were like kings of ST dmg or cleave, but we aren’t, so there is no excuse for why we should suffer in AoE as well.

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That looks right on Unending Growth–that should be fixed soon. Fair warning, the result won’t be exactly 2.5% in a test like that, because the proc rate will be prorated on partial ticks, to smooth out the haste breakpoint.

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