FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes

Actually my UX is probably cleaner than yours since I don’t put target casted spells like heals on my bars. I use vudho and just have click cast combinations so I didn’t think about heal spells on the bars. So yeah what you said makes sense for someone that keybinds the heals I guess instead of click-binding.

I mean, this isn’t an e-peen measuring contest. Don’t make presumptions about me.

I do the same, however I also have Wild Growth bound in caster form to allow me to cast while moving with my mouse in PvP and center it on myself, but if I’m mousing over a frame it will center it on them. Swiftmend, Rejuv, dispels. All of these are dual bound to both clique as well as self cast with hard keybinds.

Its mostly instant casts. This allows me to more effectively kite without having to stop what I’m doing with my mouse

Not that any of this matters. Keep in mind that this is Alpha, and the feedback is intended to be without Addons right now. I’m talking about the UX of somebody that plays without addons. What you and I do specifically, with addons, on live, is a pointless tangent.

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Crossing my fingers for some decent Guardian changes this week.

I’ll keep beating the “we don’t have a snare” drum until it gets resolved or Sigma decided to say ‘Guardians are never getting a snare because x’. :slight_smile:

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Trust me. I’m with you on that one. I beat that drum all through BfA Alpha/Beta along with many of the Feral Drums that were issues at launch.

I’ve been on the “Bears/Cats need LotP back” drum for years now. No luck.

That said. Generally calling a dev out saying you want a response is the best way to NOT get one honestly. Its this weird duality. Sigma seems to be the Dev in charge of Druids in general this cycle, but I’m sure there are others he’s working with.

Sigma likely reads this entire thread, and responds where needed. However simply saying “I’m doing this until I get a response from Sigma” puts him in an annoying situation.

Maybe what you said deserves a response. Maybe it doesn’t. Personally I’d love the thinking behind why some of the feedback we’re giving is put to the side vs what has been useful. However if a Dev responds to a post because they were called out to do so, it creates a dangerous precedent.

Suddenly other people expect responses just because they invoke the developer’s name.

If I had to give you an answer, it would be related to how Druid already has a TON of CC built into it (mass entangle/typhoon/etc) along with a lot of mobility. Adding a snare into the mix crowds the toolkit a little bit.

The real design that should be addressed is the reliance on tank snares. In THEORY you would bring a bear and get the snare elsewhere. Honestly that’s what happens in 99% of the top end groups that would even use a bear. In practicality, just less top end groups use a Bear.

That’s kinda the big issue I have with how design has been over the last few years since BfA. There’s been this concept of differentiating classes, which is great and all, but it hasn’t been done well. What happens is that the classes that are good get used, and the classes that aren’t just get left behind.

The practicality behind the theory doesn’t feel like its accounted for. I agree with a lot of what Ion says… In theory. In practice with some more scrutiny, things just feel more and more off with each patch since Legion pre-patch.

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Personal feedback from doing 5 hours in normal/heroic torghast solo this last build as a bear:

  • Anima Powers:

    1. Lycara’s Sash is amazing and really ramps up the survivability and movement speed of your clear as a solo bear.

    2. Moon-Spirit Essence has a tooltip error but other than that is a very nice if plain power increase

    3. Oath of Druids is a fun-ish ability. Having Heart of the Wild sounds great, but in solo play as a bear I found only very niche uses for this.

    4. Lycara’s Twig is probably my favorite anima power that exists for bear right now. It enforces swapping forms in order to empower abilities that increase your survivability or damage in quick succession and a few of these really contribute to getting to a very powerful place.

    5. Sylvatican Charm did not seem to function with Frenzied Regeneration and I believe it should, as it is a periodic heal.

    6. Grasping Tendrils should proc each time any enemy hits the druid for the first time. Right now it only procs for the singular first ever attack into Barkskin or Ironfur and makes this anima power significantly less useful. If Sylvatican Charm is changed it would synergize well with Curious Bramblepatch/Rootwood Scarab.

As of right now I can only see one really good build and not much diversity for a bear as solo, I would love to find more and look forward to any tweaks that come!

I feel like without getting either Lycara’s Twig or Sash on a run in heroic I would struggle greatly compared to a run where I did get one of these abilities. Especially Sash.

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I do see the problem on Resto Affinity+HotW. But since Resto doesn’t have a native form, changing this would amount to saying “simply cancel any form when you press Resto HotW.” That feels like an odd thing to force on the player, when they can already cancel form at any time. In the current setup, a player who presses HotW and then decides they want to use another Bear or Cat option before starting to heal has the option, and that seems worth preserving–even if it probably makes you want to keep a Resto button accessible from your form.

Made Sylvatican Charm work with Frenzied Regen. It was designed with Resto HoTs in mind, but this is a neat interaction for people playing Guardian. Its uptime will still be much better if you keep Resto HoTs on yourself.

In general, Torghast powers have very little balance so far, so I want to be a bit careful about feedback over what build is strongest. The Druid synergies around shapeshifting (capped by the epic power Lycara’s Sash) are definitely strong, and that might distort the feeling of other builds until balance of Torghast a whole is further along. Our goal would be that something like Grasping Tendrils could play into a winning run, in a situation where it shines due to the presence of, say, Sylvatican Charm and Rootwood Scarab.

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So I’d like to say again thank you for being so communicative with us, Sigma. Feeling like your feedback is actually being read makes you want to be more proactive in testing. That is not something I have much felt in prior alpha testing I have done.


Ok! A bit of secondary feedback for the Balance druid that has occurred to me during play. It feels like it is WAY easier to hold a Solar Eclipse for any period of time than a Lunar Eclipse. I would say either Starfire needs to be even faster to cast during the window, or more likely Stellar Surge needs to give 4 seconds during lunar eclipses?

The whole mini game loop of the eclipse mechanic is trying to keep the one you are aiming for going as long as possible, and as it is it feels like you just cannot keep it up. That’s not fun.

One of the problems I have had with Eclipse is it feels like it does not really do much to significantly impact your play. While playing Torgast it suddenly occurred to me that perhaps what it needs actually could be found in the anima powers. Bare with me here, but what if:

  • Solar Eclipse gave roots a damage component that is tied to the eclipse rather than the root directly.
  • Lunar Eclipse caused the target of your 20th Moonfire tick during the Eclipse window to be hit by Full Moon.

This gives Lunar Eclipse more of a function than spamming starfire, instead you are trying to hold your lunar eclipse long enough for your full moon to proc. This also gives Solar Eclipse an interactive mechanic to play around with and pulls in some of that Malfurion-burying-orcs-alive feel which is a REALLY COOL druid fantasy.

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Starfire is less AP/sec than Wrath, and that’s a major factor.

It mostly comes down to planning your Eclipse states, extending is easiest in Solar, and Solar happens to be the stronger of the Eclipses for single-target.

I do see your point regarding Resto Affinity+HotW. I guess part of it is that I’m a bit of a min/max mindset so if I plan on pressing something in Bear/Cat, I would probably stay in said form, do it, and then press HotW. A second look makes me feel like you’re right. If I want that functionality, I can macro it in, or cancel it manually. Where other players can just not or choose to do the same as me.

If you want the “Roots” build to be stronger, it needs to be something that (even partially) interacts with Mass Entangle. It just isn’t anywhere near as strong as any of the powershifting options.

Right now the jist of how a root build works right now involves using ME + Vanilla roots to break up pulls and DPS elites safely. It kinda turns into this very slow, non-interactive grind where you’re killing mobs one at a time and leaning on the 100% uptime on roots for a large pack. In lower levels it just doesn’t have enough impact as an AoE and things die too fast for the explosion to work much.

Being able to say pull a pack, mass entangle, DPS one, have that root break, and cause a chain reaction a-la Seed of Corruption would be a fun and interesting way to climb the tower that’s different than the current power-shifting mechanics. Currently the power-shifting just feels WAY stronger than anything related to roots outside of Petrus ring and doesn’t have a ‘capstone’ epic power.

As a whole, anything roots just feels lackluster right now compared to anything else we have in Torgast.

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Getting all the Root related powers is quite fun on cat since you can spread them around with PS.

The moon powers are kind of awkward though without Lunar Inspiration. But taking LI over Sabertooth would be painful if you also had the power which increases Bite damage.

So, quick question or suggestion:

Is there an anima power that grants the LI talent? Wowhead doesn’t seem to have the bonus talent powers listed, and I can’t find them in the data tables either.

If not, would it be feasible to add one?

You can’t really ‘spread them around’ because you can only have one at a time. The previous one breaks.

I do agree about LI. SbT is just too good and you’re better off just manually applying moonfire. Especially if you have any of the powershifting powers.

The idea of some powers is to encourage certain talents in some cases. Its supposed to encourage LI, however SbT is just so strong that you end up just avoiding those powers entirely or in the case of Orbital, dropping form to apply moonfire.

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Maybe spread isn’t the right word, but you can have two roots at once with the power that makes Bark apply on first hit. Breaking both works nice with the exploding roots power. Or just let them sit in it with Bramblepatch and cycle between targets who aren’t on root DR yet.

Why does innervate still have a gcd if Power infusion is off the gcd?

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I mentioned this on the Druid forums and was asked to post it here.

Treants used to be Druid-wide and they did different things depending on the spec of the user. Resto Treants healed, Guardian Treants taunted, Feral treants meleed, and Balance treants used ranged attacks.

Can we get this back instead of Heart of the Wild? It would be a hundred times more useful for Guardian than Heart of the Wild.

Thanks.

(All other Guardian feedback also still applies. With regard to this issue, having Heart of the Wild OR Treants in the level 35 talent row is a nerf to Guardian because it eliminates the Vortex + Typhoon combo we rely on during Necrotic weeks. Still, if you’re dead set on inserting something into that talent row, Treants would be better than HotW. In fact, Treants would even help on Necrotic if they had an AoE taunt.)

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EDIT: The macro is not necessary, each barkskin from shifting back into caster is a new barkskin.
Alright here we go I figured out a build using the roots powers. Unfortunately it’s probably not intended as it requires a macro to cancel barkskin over and over while shifting.

Lycara’s Sash - Barkskin when going into caster form, which triggers
Grasping Tendrils - Entangling Roots on first melee attack, which we add to
Petrus Ring, Curious Bramblepatch, Circlet of Weeds and the Entangling Roots explodey anima power which I can’t find the name of right now.

So we just walk around, body pulling, shifting into bear, then out of bear, which keeps us healed thanks to Lycara’s Sash, making sure to cancel barkskin every time we go into bear form with the macro so that when we exit, a new barkskin is given and another enemy gets rooted, ticks, dies, explodes.

If anyone has any ideas to make this even better I would love to hear them!

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I just gotta say bravo for coming up with this build. It’s pretty inventive and seems like it would be a hilarious way to kill the mobs.

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So now that I’ve had some time to play with the Covenant Powers, I’d like to compile all the feedback related to them into a single post. There will be some extra focus on Feral, but much of this is pretty universal.

Kindred Spirits – Form a bond with an ally. Every 1 min, you may empower the bond for 10 sec, granting you an effect based on your partner’s role, and granting them an effect based on your role.

So this has uses that change depending on role. Great for group play in theory, but generally feels like trash in solo play. The DPS version at least has a component where you can cast it on yourself and activate it for the bonus. This is not true for Resto or Guardian. The Guardian ability seems interesting but is just literally useless in Solo content.

I would like to see some sort of functionality where if you cast it on yourself, you get the DPS version regardless of role at the very least, if not something more interesting.

Either way the real problem is that the DPS version plays like a less interesting version of Ravenous Frenzy when in solo play. It also suffers from the “GCD Stacking” issue.

[Adaptive Swarm] Command a swarm that heals (240% of Spell power) or deals (150% of Spell power) Shadow damage over 12 sec to a target and increases the effectiveness of your periodic effects on them by 20%. Upon expiration, travels to a new target within 25 yards, alternating between friend and foe up to 3 times.

I don’t really mind this one as much to be honest. The duration along with the cooldown gives you this really interesting interaction where if you actively watch the cooldown and use it right away, you can get two “DPS” or “Heal” phases in a row.

It feels kinda weird to be sitting on an important cooldown for 12 additional seconds only to refresh it 12 seconds after it came up. In practicality the cycle looks like this in a long fight

12sec:12sec:24sec:12sec:24sec:12sec

I’m not sure exactly how to fix this, or if it needs to be fixed. One thing I do know is this feels like the kind of ability you want to reset when your target dies or should just automatically jump. This is mostly a questing concern, I found myself just trying to get it to jump back on me and rush to the next fight so it would go back to my target. This is probably my favorite to play with and the most interesting one.

[Convoke the Spirits] – Call upon the Night Fae for an eruption of energy, channeling a rapid flurry of 16 Druid spells and abilities over 4 seconds. You will cast Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Thrash, Rake, Shred, and Ironfur on appropriate nearby targets, favoring your current specialization.

This just feels like trash honestly.

  • As a ranged/healer you’re forced into melee to get value from Thrash maybe going off.
  • As a tank you’re channeling something and form what I can tell you cannot use any active abilities to defend yourself during the channel.
  • As a Cat you kinda just spam Thrash a bunch. You want to be snapshotting with TF as a druid, so using this also gets ugly as pressing TF energy caps you, but you cannot use anything during the channel, so all that energy regen goes to waste. Even ignoring all of that, two of the three abilities that go off are bleeds, so it doesn’t really help your damage much.
    This is very much an ability that sounds cool in theory but feels horrible once you get your hands on it.

The most unfortunate part here is that Night Fae are supposed to be where the “Nature” belief system leads to. This from a lore perspective is going to be the biggest draw for RP players or Heroic players that like to theme their characters a little bit. I would rate this as the worst feeling one of the four. It just doesn’t work

[Ravenous Frenzy] – For 20 sec, Druid spells you cast increase your damage, healing, and haste by 2%, stacking. If you spend 1.5 sec idle, the Frenzy overcomes you, consuming 3% of your health per stack, stunning you for 1 sec, and then ending.
Instant cast, 3 min cooldown.

I’d say this one is the most ‘effective’ but most boring. From a DPS perspective this just aligns annoyingly with Berzerk/Incarn/Celestial. You have that “Multiple back to back GCD” issue going on here. You get the same thing from Bear because the CDs just match up and you being able to spam stuff faster is just good. It doesn’t “DO” anything and you find yourself using the first few globals of it wasting uptime.

Resto does have a bit more freedom in this regard. If they’re not taking Incarn it is usable on its own. If they are then its just going to be lined up with it anyway. The issue here is the nature of the ability puts you in a situation where you’re almost encouraged to waste mana. The increasing haste pumps out more and more healing sure, but it feels a bit degenerative and will punish you if you miss a global. I guess you can theoretically spam wraith while if you don’t want to use the mana.

As a whole I would say that Adaptive Swarm is probably the best feeling one, only needs minor tweaks if any. Convoke feels like trash to use and should go back to the drawing board. Ravenous Frenzy suffers from the GCD issue. Kindered Spirits feels bad in solo play for Tanks & Healers.

EDIT: I’d like to add that if released in the current form, the best designed ones would be either Undeath or Shadow. Hardly a druidy thing.

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So just a little bit of feedback for the Nightfae covenant. Nightfae as it currently stands is very cool as an idea, however just the concept of fully channeling the ability then having abilities like Rake / Thrash / Rejuv as a moonkin feels pretty bad. It would make more sense if the nightfae ability cast abilities based on what shapeshift form you are in. So say you are in human form you will cast healing abilities. Say you are in cat form you cast damage abilities. Based on your form over specialization seems a lot more appealing. It actually is such a sick covenant, I would hate if it was left feeling like it currently is.

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Honestly, while this KINDA does work agreed, you’re running into an issue where just shifting into moonkin form will likely just be better. Infinite Starfall is nuts. The other pain is that Petrus Ring and Exploding Roots has a lot of anti-synergy. You’re better off just leaving everything rooted.

I’ve tried it. This build also doesn’t handle Elites very well, but is generally alright. Spending your time just shapeshifting loses its luster really fast though.

I do find it funny that you initially state that you don’t like having a heal in your rotation because it felt weird, but then immediately go to talking about why it sucks to lose that heal. The output is the same. The gameplay feels worse, and we have lost the heal.

I’m of the camp that likes the current Bloodtalons iteration, but I’m working on finding a better solution if it HAS to happen (I prefer it wouldn’t). This current one is bad.

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