Feedback: Demon Hunters

We should phrase that concern as tuning not in a way to reduce demonic uptime; tuning should always be DHs’ concern with how Shadowlands turned out. (I see tuning/numbers as a separate thing)

That said, with proper balancing, I wouldn’t turn down more demonic uptime.

Also, looking cool = more dps

2 Likes

TLDR - Glide will be removed as one of Momentum’s trigger skills in a future update.

Thank you to those willing to discuss Glide’s inclusion as a potential trigger for Momentum. While we knew it could be a controversial addition, player discussion around the topic has helped paint a clearer picture of the ways in which it could be fun and also the ways in which it could cause problems or frustration. Most reactions to Glide on Momentum were negative, and ultimately we agree that the downsides would probably outweigh the benefits and Glide will be removed as a potential trigger skill.

Momentum has historically been very divisive, with many players strongly loving or hating it. A talent tree is an ideal system for such an ability to exist, as an option. With that in mind, a capstone position puts a greater emphasis on Momentum than it should have, and so Momentum will be swapping positions with Essence Break. Essence Break will be modified in a way to further emphasize its intended identity as a medium cooldown controlled burst option.

Your continued feedback on Demon Hunters in the Alpha test is greatly appreciated and helps guide future iteration. Cheers.

35 Likes

Extremely exciting change about the positioning, and so fast, too! Thank you and all of the developers working on Demon Hunter for listening and responding to our feedback so quickly.

8 Likes

It feels like the only real reason I go down the right side of the tree (for a ST build) is to get to Demon Blades/Instatiable Hunger which takes away from being able to put a point into Netherwalk(survivability)/Tacitcal Retreat(Fury generation). In my build I had to choose between Netherwalk vs Burning Wounds and the damage you gain from Burning Wounds is pretty decent not to take (maybe this is something they want us to have to choose between damage or survivability). Demon Blades/Instatiable Hunger should probably be swapped with Serrated Glaive, which would let us take out 2 points from Felfire Heart and would allow us to put one point in Netherwalk, one point in Demon Blades and one point into Tactical Retreat.

Feels super awkward being forced to use points down a path to get to 1 ability you NEED, so you lose a bit of choice.

Ya, I was specifically going to make a post asking for Fel Barrage/Glaive Tempest to be moved elsewhere.

We agree to the extent that a 2nd charge of Fel Rush (and for Vengeance, Infernal Strike) should be more easily accessible than in its current position on the Havoc spec tree, and so the talent Hot Feet will be moving to the class tree in the first row center position where the talent ‘Master of the Glaive’ is now.

Master of the Glaive’s effect will be combined back into the talent ‘Debilitating Cuts’ and renamed back to ‘Master of the Glaive,’ matching the Shadowlands talent version.

28 Likes

Okay this is too many wins in a single day… What moves to Hot Feet’s former spot?

4 Likes

As others have said: It would be great if Glaive Tempest/Fel Barrage wasn’t locked behind UBC. You could move it elsewhere and do a branch that combines UBC, Momentum, and Improved Fel Rush perhaps. That way that whole playstyle is connected (you’d want them all anyways) and you could build out other branches that make more sense as well.

I’d also like to voice overall displeasure at having to talent into basic utility abilities like interrupts, basic defensives/dispels/etc that weren’t talents before, and other abilities of that nature. It feels really bad having to spend a talent point on something like that instead of spending it on increased damage or an ability that affects your playstyle in a more meaningful manner.

I’m totally fine with talents that enhance those basic abilities (IE: bonus fury on successful Disrupt interrupt or removing a buff with Consume Magic) or spending a point on sigils as Havoc. But spending talent points to get a previously baseline ability back doesn’t really instill me with a sense of “meaningful choice”.

2 Likes

A new talent modifying Throw Glaive will be taking its place, the details of which will be available in a future build.

While on the topic of talent placement and what talents go where, we’ve been following discussions and planning changes. Instead of responding to every current related comment, you can refer to the below image to see what Havoc’s tree is likely to look in the next update:

We really do appreciate your continued play, discussion, and feedback, and we hope you will continue to share it with us as we move forward. Cheers.

45 Likes

Sir, you can’t keep giving us all these Ws, we literally cannot hold them all.

19 Likes

On the class tree, I don’t like Desperate Instincts (DI) as a talent and as a capstone. It’s not strong enough to be a capstone or even a talent, even though, I’m concerned we’ll be squishier in DF. Also, I like having control over blur.

Not exactly sure what would be capstone worthy, but to throw out an idea, how about an improved Fleshcraft? Can move while channeling, shield absorbs X dmg then reflects the absorb dmg when broken…

or blade dance dodge :slight_smile:

2 Likes

The location of Relentless Onslaught and Trail of Ruin seem to be in really awkward spots after these changes. Before it was moved to that location, they synergized really well with Improved Chaos Strike, Critical Chaos and First Blood. With this new image, we’re moving some ST talents to a side that don’t compliment the type of build you’re aiming for such as ST vs Cleave/AOE.

The left side seemed like it was more focused on ST talents and the right side of the tree was more focused on Cleave/AOE. I think putting momentum towards the middle of the tree since both sides would benefit from this and moving Unbound Chaos closer to the right side of the tree would make this feel better. I think Relentless Onslaught and Trail of Ruin would feel better where Vengeful Restraint and Unbound Chaos are in your current image.

It almost feels like a tug of war and you’re forced to spread points into talents you don’t really have interest in just to unlock an ability that feels core to the spec instead of spending points into making your spec feel smooth. Maybe no matter how we move things around, we’ll end up with having to put points into skills that don’t compliment the build we’re aiming for but this feels a bit too spread imo.

I think it’s going to take more testing and shifting of talents around the skill tree to really iron out what will be a good final skill tree for Havoc. Thanks for looking at our feedback <3

3 Likes

Just some immediate feedback based on the image, because there is some concern about it;

If possible, would the CS trait immediately down from Eye Beam and First Blood be something that can be swapped? There are already concerns about the potential of the existence of a CS-only build. That said, that also depends on Cycle’s power.

Until the new tree is live, this is about as much as I can immediately give.

7 Likes

I agree with Atrayen, I think with this image, we’d be looking at a CS only build and wouldn’t really press Blade Dance outside of a few exceptions and that would feel really mind numbing. BUT I will say that we’re moving in the right direction and need to keep adjusting as we continue to test new alpha/beta builds. :smiley:

3 Likes

Being forced into burning wound to get to fel barrage is so bad.

Burning wounds playstyle of multi dotting as melee do not fit the modern m+ role of a melee.

Burning wound is fine as a way to make immolation aura dmg matter on single target.

But please get rid of burning wound from the right side of the tree.

If you insist on keeping it then make blade dance apply it.

Multi dotting in keys while stoping mobs abilities and keeping track of focus frames for kicks and all other mechanics and frontals as melee …. Is not fun.

Multi dotting and tab targeting for dmg as melee is not fun.

I would take UBC back over burning wound to get to fel barrage. please put ubc back there. Anything but burning wound in its current form

15 Likes

Alternative recommendation - given the lead-in from Trail and the path down to Soulrend - make your periodic DoT crits (Hunt, Trail, Soulrend) proc it, leaning into the crit scaling we have.

Additional feedback: the forced pathing into Chaotic Transformation does not feel good (talent may need a rework? Feeling compelled to wait for Eye Beam to be back up before popping Meta does not feel the best, and the talent doesn’t do a whole lot given it is tied to a 4 minute cooldown)

Dancing with Fate being behind the Throw Glaive talent if we end up not wanting it does not feel good (potential node swap?)

Being forced into either Isolated Prey or Momentum for Know Your Enemy does not feel good (swap IP with Chaos Theory maybe?)

2 Likes

I think chaotic formation being forced is okay. But would still rather take it baked into meta baseline.

Ragefire new placement is weird. If I wanna take the entering demon form talentZ why am I forced to take other one to get to ragefire. Ragefire should have remained on right side of the tree.

5 Likes

I’d think the most important things in a game would be for them to be fun right?

Burning wound: in ST situations or even 1-3 targets it’s fine. On huntsman for example it wasn’t a bad thing to keep up dots on multiple targets. Outside of a small number though it get’s boring and tedious. In m+ spinning around in circles trying to get the dot on as many mobs as you can is not fun (especially when using Demon Blades). Not to mention that the bigger the pull the less likely you are to get the dot out on enough targets to make in meaningful compared to like a survival hunter chucking bombs, lock dropping rain of fire or WW just spinning in circles. The time it takes to get the dot on enough targets highly devalues the talent on low keys where trash dies too fast and on big pulls where it’s just not possible to get the dot on enough targets to compare to any other spec. No one will deny that it does damage but the playstyle it promotes is not enjoyable. Adding Blade Dance as an applicator would make it actually usable. Hell even doing something like turning BW into a cataclysm type cooldown with a dot that lasts 30 seconds on a 30 second CD would be more interesting than tab > dot > tab > dot > infinity.

Cycle of Hatred: Once again no one denies it does damage but I’ve seen so many people quit playing DH this expansion purely because CoH makes havoc so incredibly boring to play. IMO it’s absolutely ridiculous to think that a spec that removes as many abilities as possible does the highest damage a spec can do. To me balance should be something like (with live talent set ups as an example) CoH is 15% behind, Demonic First Blood is 5% behind and then Momentum/Essence Break deals the most simply because its the hardest to play version of havoc. CoH at the end of the day in so boring and if it ends up being that we get this huge range of amazing talents that are so fun to play but CoH does the most damage you’re going to lose even more of the DH population.

Burst cooldown: I said it in my last post and I’ll say it again. Please please please give havoc a 2 minute burst CD. Even shadow priests have burst cds now a days. I will admit that having Chaos Blades AND Nemesis back during legion was a bit too much but stripping both of them away was, to me, the biggest downfall havoc has received in the 3 expansions that we’ve existed. Meta is a great CD and it would be horrible to change it to something else but giving us an actual burst CD so that we can contribute to meaningful damage when necessary is very important. Chaos Blades, big giant mastery increase from Grove Invigoration after using The Hunt something along those lines would bring havoc back to feeling like we can contribute when it matters.

12 Likes

Adding my vote to reworking BW and multitargetting.

Burning Wound (BW) - Like others, not a fan of it in an aoe setting, think it’s okay in a 1-2 target setting (even at 3 it would be annoying because BW would drops off after 15sec and you still need change targets frequently) . It’s annoying and not fun to tab around to apply BW - sucks if you want to focus a target and pump it down.

If the intent is to keep BW in an AoE setting, can you provide or allow an ability that would spread it easily? The best example for this would be Warlock’s Seed of Corruption applying Corruption.

Another idea (since I’ve recently picked up rogue) maybe something like Outlaw Rogue’s blade flurry where BW is a single target ability and a blade flurry-like ability spreads our BW ST ability to others nearby.

11 Likes

Thinking about momentum, how it’s a tougher playstyle, and how to give players an easier entry to it. I can think of 2 main arguments against momentum: 1. Dislike using mobility for dmg and 2. It is very difficult to play momentum on a unforgiving boss or dungeon encounter.

I can’t provide any comments on the second point except hope the raid encounters will take into consideration classes that use a lot of movement like DH and dracthyr.

This may not be a solution to the first point, but any thought of a talent to provide a 3rd fel rush and/or shorter fel rush cd? Alternatively, if say fel blade has 2 charges and/or is allowed to proc momentum, it could free up the uses of fel rush.

2 Likes