FEEDBACK: Demon Hunter Class Changes

In regards to VDH and Covenants:

Kyrian: Feels great, synergizes with anything that affects sigils, provides a nice on-demand source of Soul Fragments. Overall, just a great ability, and one I’m likely to pick. The Steward, on the other hand, is basically a weaker Healthstone, and little else. Overall, this is probably the strongest Covenant for VDH.

Necrolords: It’s okay. Nothing crazy. The problem I have is that it’s not really on-demand, in that I press the button, I get the benefit. I press the button, then I have to wait for this mob to get summoned, and then kill it. This makes the benefit really uncontrollable, especially if you’re trying to time it based on certain boss attacks or similar. The benefit from the ability is also pretty meh, nothing worth writing home about. Fleshcrafting can be okay, but it’s a channeled ability, which means that trying to use it in combat is pretty uneven.

Venthyr: Somehow this ability is both quite good, and yet really bad. The fact that its tied to Meta means that this becomes a “win-more” ability, similar to our Mastery. It provides a ton of damage and damage reduction when we pop Meta, the time when we least need it, and acts as basically a weaker Fiery Brand outside of Meta. Doesn’t even synergize with Demonic/Fel Devastation. Pretty meh. Door of Shadows is…okay? Again, more mobility for one of the most mobile tanks, and its also on a cast time, so very meh.

Night Fae: This is, by far, the weakest Covenant for VDH. This ability does basically nothing outside of PVP scenarios. We don’t need another leap in pve, and the extra Fury we generate does literally nothing (per my previous post). The only reason a VDH would ever take this Covenant is because they just really, really like the aesthetic of the Night Fae, because the abilities are entirely underwhelming for our spec. Soulshifting is, honestly, not even worth talking about. It’s all flavour, and little else.


10,000% this.

Blizzard, please read this post thoroughly.


Giving us Fel Devastation is cool, but it is just a fire and forget which doesn’t not alter anything else.

Here are the changes that I would make:

Talents now baseline: Spirit Bomb, Fracture

Spirit Bomb: No longer costs Pain.

Fracture: Replaces Shear, Shear is completely gone.

Fel Devastation: The new Pain consumer, uses up to 70 pain to increase damage and healing. CD 30S


Sigils activate after 1.5 seconds

Blur: Ability Blur added to VDH’s kit. It reduces damage by 20% and increases dodge chance by 20% for 8 seconds, minute CD.

Soul Cleve: Changed to ST damage, costs 30 pain, breaks a minor soul from target. Adds a small shield, no healing.

Infernal Strike: Ranged increase from Abyssal Strike now Baseline.

Metamorphosis: Nerfed significantly, provides less armor and health but CD reduced to 2 minutes.

New Mastery: Gluttony: Mastery increases the chance that a soul will proc Gluttony, in addition armor and damage during meta are increases by a % improving with mastery.

Gameplay Loop: Fracture to build pain and souls - Expend souls with Spirit Bomb - Fel Devastation at 70 pain - Soul Cleave as pain filler as to not over cap. Add in Immo Aura, Abyssal Strikes, Fiery Brands and Sigils to make a dynamic rotation.


Many need to be reworked and those that become baseline replaced. Simply put, VDH has garbage talents.

Row 1:

Abyssal Strike: Reduced CD by 8 seconds, adds a fissure on the ground which explodes after 1 second dealing X damage. (Will no longer have the flame crash talent available, later talent rows would have interesting mechanics to sigils)

Agonizing Flames: Immolation Aura does X% more damage, increases movement speed by X% and leaves a fiery trail in your wake that burns for X% damage. Throwing your glaive will leave a trail from you to the target.

Razor Spikes: Demon Spikes are now barbed causing enemies who melee to gain a stacking bleeding debuff dealing X damage per stack. You do 1% extra damage to enemies per stack (Up to 3%), Magic Damage that does More than 10% of total life in one spell will break off a large Spike dealing all 3 stacks at once.

Row 2:

Unstable Soul: Soul Cleave no longer breaks a soul, shield is increased by X%, when broken the shield does AOE damage and drops a soul.

Fallout: Same as before

Burning Alive: Fiery Brand now adds a small dot to all enemies near primary target, this dot does X damage and reduces damage done by X% (probably around 10-15%)

Row 3:

Balance of Power: Consuming pain increases the damage of your next Soul spender by 1% per 10 pain (Up to 10%) Consuming souls increases the damage of your next pain spender by 2% per soul spent (Up to 10%).

Charred Flesh: Fel Devastation no longer consumes pain to increase damage, instead it generates X pain.

Felblade: Same as before (Pain will be a much better resource with this version of the demon hunter)

Row 4:

Soul Rending: Basically the same (Numbers may need to be adjusted), will be much better with Gluttony being our new mastery and increased damage during meta.

Feed the Demon: Same

Soul Barrier: Souls consumed by Spirit Bomb provide an additional shield per soul spent.

Row 5:

Quickening Sigil’s: Sigil CD’s reduced by 20%, all sigils have 2 charges.

Concentrated Sigil’s: Sigil’s have increased Area of effect. In addition:
Sigil of Flame does 3 seperate bursts every 1.5 seconds, doing increased damage per stage and putting a stacking dot.
Sigil of Misery: now stuns
Sigil of Silence: silences and then causes the next spell cast to lock the caster from that school for x seconds.

Sigil of Chains: Same as before with the added effect of: Enemies inflicted with the snare take X% more damage during the duration.

Row 6:

Glutton: When Metamorphosis is activated, grant a charge of Demon Spikes. Demon Hunter is healed by X% when Metamorphosis is activated.

Unstable Transformation: Reduces CD of Metamorphosis, reduces time spent in form. When Gluttony activates Metamorphosis, CD is reduced by X seconds.

Demonic: Fel Devastation activates Metamorphosis for X seconds.

Row 7:

Last Resort: Same as before.

Painbringer: Consuming Souls reduces damage taken by X% for X seconds.

Blurred Reality: Blur now creates an after image of the Demon Hunter with X% of their health. The afterimage takes X% of damage taken until it’s HP is depleted or Blur ends. During that time the image copies the Demon Hunters auto attacks for 50% of the damage.

Those are interesting talents that change gameplay, that is what Blizzard should be striving for.


Here’s my feedback on specifically Vengeance Shadowlands Demon Hunter Changes.

Overall, Vengeance makes very little sense in this time of “class identity”. Gameplay has been slowed down dramatically as players lose power and secondaries. The gaps in mitigation remind me of the same levels when BFA launched and will understandably make Vengeance a weaker tank for all content on game launch. It took almost a year before some essences were rolled in and even then vengeance had gaps in mitigation. Fortunately we have time to address this now.

Vengeance’s biggest weakness is their defensive kit while their DPS counterparts have better defensive CDs (Blur, Cover of Darkness, Netherwalk talent). Vengeance has potential opportunities to borrow from havoc just as havoc has taken from Vengeance.

Personally, when I think of Vengeance Demon Hunter I think of a iconic mix between “The Hulk” smashing his way through puny foes and to a lesser extent Diablo bringing Fiery Destruction with him. Currently, Vengeance does not feel like this at all. None of Vengeance’s abilities are augmented in the same way Havoc gets with it’s Meta and Demonic influences.

Sigils are a signature part of the Vengeance kit but feel very cumbersome to use being on the GCD as well as having a 2 second activation time. This feels very unrewarding and actually punishing. In extremely high mythic plus scenarios using a GCD on a sigil to keep AoE threat can kill you if you can’t spam shear nonstop simply because you’re desperate to generate souls. The class doesn’t have a fundamental way to keep aggro on AoE situations and even then single target can be lacking. I’m not sure if Blizzard’s approach is to fix this through the covenant system, soul bind system, or to fix this through talents.

Proposed Fixes

Agonizing Flame and Felblade are simply 100% wrong in all scenarios.

First Talent Row: Movement abilities

  • Abyssal Strike - Reduces Infernal Strike to 12 seconds. 2 charges. Creates Mini Sigil of Flame on area. - No changes needed here
  • New - Infernal Charge - 20 second cooldown. 2 charges. Your Infernal Leap now becomes Infernal charge. Charge an enemy immediately smashing them into the ground dealing 35% of AP fire damage to all enemies 6 yard around the target and stunning them for 1 second. Generates 1 soul fragment, up to 3 based on enemies hit. Generates 30 fury. if your target is immune to stun effects, shatter 2 lesser soul fragments. - Ideally this would work on bosses, pvp, and mythic plus scenarios. However Vengeance would lose the ability to leap out of situations by gaining this charge.
  • Fel Rush - 2 charges. Replaces Infernal Strike. - Iconic ability that havoc demon hunters use.
  • Felblade has been removed
  • Agonizing flames has been removed.

This row would all have movement abilities tied into one creating balance and harmony. If one talent is too strong or too weak, you can tweak it in this row.

Second Talent Row: Soul generating abilities

Rotation: Almost any vengeance demon hunter I know loves fracture. Fracture and Shear are essentially the same however doing what the class needs in 2x time versus 1x. With shear in its current form, it is 100% not enough in the soul generation department so the community feels forced into fracture. Now, I’m not saying fracture should be the 100% choice, however an entire talent row dedicated towards this would be the correct choice towards soul generation.

  • Fracture: Exactly how it is now. No changes. - Smooths game-play rotation.
  • Essence Sever - Proposed change: Shear deals 887 fire damage to nearby enemies and has a chance to rip additional lesser Soul Fragments from up to 5 nearby enemies. - While not highly used in BFA, it’s not a bad ability and was in need of major tuning. Ideally perfect for dungeon type scenarios while also letting individuals who enjoy shear to have it.
  • Soul Carver - 40 second cooldown. Carve into the soul of your target dealing X% fire damage and an additional X% fire damage over 3 seconds. Immediately shatters 2 lesser soul fragments from the target and 1 additional lesser soul fragment every 1 second. - Brought back from Legion into a talent to compliment shear because shear by itself is not enough for those players who dislike fracture.

Third Talent Row: Fire-Augmentation

  • Revel in Pain: (Merge Burning Alive, Charred Flesh, and Revel-In-Pain together.) Fiery Brand now lasts 10 seconds, spreading every 2 seconds to one nearby enemy increasing the fire damage your abilities deal to the target by 20%. When Fiery Brand expires on your primary target gain (20% of max HP) as a shield for 15 seconds. - Perfection.
  • Agonizing Flames (Merge Fallout/Agonizing Flames/Infernal Armor) - Immolation Aura now lasts 10 seconds increasing your armor by 20% and dealing 20% increased damage. Additionally melee attackers suffer 10% of AP as fire damage and its initial burst has a chance to shatter lesser soul fragments from enemies. - Huge change needed to help vengeance.
  • Trail of Ashes - After using Infernal Strike/Charge, leave a trail of fire underneath you for 10 seconds dealing (high X% of AP) as fire damage to all inside.

Fourth Talent Row: Defensive-Augmentation

  • Feed the Demon: Consuming a Soul fragment reduces the remaining cooldown of Demon Spikes by 0.5 seconds. - No change needed.
  • Demonic Infusion: 90 second cooldown. Draw from the power of the Twisting Nether to instantly activate Demon Spikes and then refill your charges of Demon Spikes.
  • Soul Rending: Gain 5% leech. Your leech is increased by 10% while Demon Spikes is active. Additionally increases your chance to parry by an additional 10% while demon spikes is active. While in Meta, you gain 25% leech.

Fifth Talent Row: Sigil-Augmentation

The sigil row needs a fundamental reworking. Proposed Changes: Sigil of Chains is now baseline. All sigils now activate after 1 second and the duration of their effects is increased by 2 seconds.

Sigil of Flames CD - 15 seconds.
Sigil of Silence CD - 60 seconds.
Sigil of Chains CD - 60 seconds.
Sigil of Misery CD - 60 seconds.

  • Spirit of the Fel-Infused Flames: Each enemy hit by your Sigil of Flames increases the damage of your next Sigil of Flames by 20%, stacks up to 5 times. Can not occur more than once every 30 seconds.
  • Quickened Sigils: Each enemy hit by any of your Sigils grants you 3% haste and dodge chance for 15 seconds up to 15% haste/dodge chance. This effect can not occur more than once every 30 seconds.
  • Chaos Nova Unleash an eruption of fel energy, dealing Chaos damage and stunning all nearby enemies for 2 sec. Each enemy stunned by Chaos Nova has a 30% chance to generate a Lesser Soul Fragment.

Sixth Talent Row: Damage-Augmentation

  • Demonic Devastation: Fel Devastation channels 1 seconds longer, dealing 15% more damage and healing. After channeling it causes you to stay in demon form for 8 sec. Any overhealing is applied as a shield for 15 seconds.
  • Empowered Soul Cleave (Merge Feast of Souls/Void Reaver) - Soul Cleave now deals 10% additional fire damage per lesser soul fragment consumed up to 2. Additionally heals you for an additional X% over 8 seconds and enemies struck by your soul cleave deal 8% less damage to you for 8 seconds.
  • Spirit Bomb - (Merge Soul Barrier/Spirit Bomb) 30 second cooldown. Shield yourself for 12 seconds for 10% of Max HP. Consume up to 5 lesser soul fragments within 25 yards and then explode, afflicting nearby enemies with frailty for 30 seconds, damaging them for (40% of AP) fire damage per lesser soul fragment. You gain 10% leech against enemies with frailty. Your shield is increased by 2% of your max HP per soul consumed

Seventh Talent Row

  • Last Resort - Sustaining Fatal damage instead pulls your soul into the Twisting Nether activating a demonic rune on your corpse instantly. Enemies hit by this rune are stunned for 2 seconds. After 2 seconds, you return in Metamorphosis form for 15 seconds. This can only occur once every 6 minutes.
  • Blur - Increases your chance to dodge by 15% and reduces all damage taken by 35% for 10 seconds. 1 minute cooldown
  • Darkness - Summons Darkness around you in an 8 yard radius granting friendly targets a 30% chance to avoid all damage taken. Lasts 8 seconds.

I added Darkness and Blur as talents for Vengeance because if we’re going for class identity rather than spec, Vengeance can borrow from Havoc for sure.

In dungeons I felt the class took too much damage. The covenant system hasn’t done anything to make vengeance feel special at all. Will comment again after we get to see soulbinds.


Fair tidings Illidari. The next build of the Shadowlands Alpha will have a number of changes based on your feedback. We’re generally happy with the core kit of both Demon Hunter specializations, but want to improve talent diversity.


  • Demonic Appetite - Consuming a soul fragment no longer reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam.

  • Cycle of Hatred - When Chaos Strike refunds Fury, it will reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam (was Metamorphosis) .

    • Developers’ notes: We’ve reconsidered the addition of Eye Beam cooldown reduction to Demonic Appetite, believing it will make that talent a dominant choice in the row. Instead, we’re placing that benefit on Cycle of Hatred, which is competing against other options for AOE damage.
  • Insatiable Hunger: Demon’s Bite deals 20% more damage and generates 5 to 10 additional Fury.

    • Developers’ notes: Since this ability only increased the maximum additional Fury that Demon’s Bite could generate, it was possible to frequently see no noticeable benefit. The talent will now always result in at least 5 extra Fury generated.
  • Immolation Aura now generates 20 Fury when cast.

  • Burning Hatred: Immolation now generates an additional 60 Fury over 12 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: We added Immolation Aura back to Havoc baseline because it was a nice mid-tier AOE damage ability that could be shared across the specs. Player feedback made it clear that Fury generation was an important part of the ability, so we moved the initial burst of Fury to the main ability. The Fury generation over time will remain in the talent.
  • Fel Mastery has been replaced with a new talent, Unbound Chaos.

  • Unbound Chaos: While Immolation Aura is active, your inner demon slams into nearby enemies at the end of your Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.

    • Developers’ notes: Fel Mastery was a simple buff to Fel Rush damage that required frequent reorientation to your target and as a result primarily saw play alongside Momentum. By binding the damage bonus to Immolation Aura, we feel like the talent can be taken on its own or alongside Momentum.


  • Immolation Aura and Fiery Brand tooltips were changed to show the total amount of damage done over the duration of the spell.

  • Soul Cleave damage increased 20%.

    • Developers’ notes: We often see feedback that Soul Cleave is a low priority button because the passive consumption of soul fragments means no healing is lost if it isn’t pressed, and Spirit Bomb offers more damage and healing per soul fragment. We made a change already that adds additional healing to Soul Cleave for each orb consumed, but also we’re increasing the damage of Soul Cleave as well. We’d like to see Spirit Bomb used intermittently to apply Frailty, but Soul Cleave to be the spec’s primary source of healing and damage.
  • Agonizing Flame no longer increases the damage of Immolation Aura. It now increases its duration by 50%.

    • Developers’ notes: Increasing the duration of Immolation Aura increases the value of the talent’s movement speed buff and creates synergy with other talents like Infernal Armor and the re-design of Charred Flesh mentioned below.
  • Feast of Souls healing increased by 25%.

    • Developers’ notes: This talent is intentionally straightforward, offering an option that makes Vengeance’s primary consumer Soul Cleave better. It’s a fine option, but may need additional tuning to close the gap with the more active options in the row.
  • Charred Flesh has been redesigned: Immolation Aura damage now increases the duration of your Fiery Brand by 0.5 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: Fire damage alone was not an attractive option when compared to the other options in the row. This interaction with Immolation Aura can significantly increase the uptime of a key defensive ability while also increasing its overall damage. This creates interesting synergies with anything that modifies Fiery Brand or Immolation Aura such as the talents Agonizing Flames and Burning Alive.

Please continue to reply with your thoughts on Demon Hunters in Shadowlands!


Bal’a dash, malanore.

I am Somerset, former QA UX Analyst for World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth. And yes, my life is dedicated to destroying the Burning Legion.

These changes are enormously exciting and I’d like to offer a few thoughts on them. My feedback will seek to identify potential threats to the design health of each talent row as they are currently presented for Havoc Demon Hunters:

Immolation Aura and Burning Hatred

  • Adding baseline Fury generation to Immolation Aura fits perfectly with the Demon Hunter playstyle and theme. “I need more power, and I need it now.”

  • Burning Hatred however, remains a problematic talent that threatens to bully Insatiable Hunger (IH) and Demon Blades (DB) out of viability in Shadowlands as it has in Battle for Azeroth due to its unique design as an out-of-combat resource generator. By selecting Burning Hatred, Demon Hunters gain the ability to pool Fury during downtime between all non-boss encounters, both in PvE and and PvP. If Burning Hatred offers less throughput than its row competitors, it risks losing viability as a PvE playstyle. If Burning Hatred offers equal throughput, it risks dominating the row due to its unmatched power in ‘between-combat’ scenarios.

Unbound Chaos

  • This is an extremely exciting change, substantially increasing the capacity for skill expression in this row.
  • I am concerned that the power of this talent comes at the price of both Fel Rush charges. Unless spending both my charges yields higher throughput than either Trail of Ruin or Fel Barrage, this talent could be at-risk of becoming marginalized despite its engaging design.
  • Fel Rush talents have historically been associated with the Momentum playstyle; wouldn’t using Vengeful Retreat as the trigger spell offer a means to provide this power without having to balance around Fel Rush charges?
    • Alternatively, could this issue be resolved by balancing around a once-per-Immolation Aura model?
      • “After casting Immolation Aura, your inner demon slams into nearby enemies at the end of your next Fel Rush…”

Desperate Instincts

  • Disappointed that Desperate Instincts has not received any love in Shadowlands yet. Any plans to revisit this talent?

Cycle of Hatred

  • This is awesome! Can’t wait to try this out.


  • With the changes to Cycle of Hatred, Unbound Chaos, and the introduction of Essence Break, the play patterns of both the Momentum+Fel Rush and Demonic have well-defined paths and options. Nemesis, while still exciting in PVP, increasingly lacks a PVE identity. Are any changes being considered to Nemesis to increase its usability and promote its enemy health-conscious playstyle, as seen in the gameplay loop of Rogue’s Marked for Death?

Thank you for your time and sacrifice. The Legion will fall.


Played around with talent changes, here are my thoughts.

Burning hatred is still going to be the default, fury generation feels awful without it.

I understand wanting to nerf demonic appetite, but moving the eye beam CD reduction to chaos strike in another talent feels awful. Havoc is already a boring spec, literally the fun of it was being able to sometimes spam eye beams. With your nerfs to soul rending it is still hard to take something outside of demonic appetite because of needing the healing. This just makes demonic spec feel even worse than it already was on alpha. The 15 sec reduction cap you had in prior builds made more sense for balancing eye beam spam.

Unbound chaos is a interesting idea but having it rely on immolation aura being up makes no sense.

I cannot imagine taking cycle of hatred over first blood. This will be a significant problem for the only viable spec (demonic).

These changes make demonic really awful to play and I won’t play a DH anymore if this is how the spec is going to be handled. You keep trying to push momentum that is a terrible spec to play in high end content. Stop making a garbage idea work and move onto something better.


Would love to test out Unbound Chaos but with me having 90 ping, the demon spawns in the middle of my fel rush path, not at the end. If you guys make this talent work properly it could actually be really cool though.

I also don’t understand what the point of the cycle of hatred change is, unless it’s not meant to be the best option in that row. If it is ever going to be the best option for general use, I’m not going to ever want to play this class, because the Antorus playstyle of not ever pressing blade dance is so mind numbing and anti-fun.

Burning Hatred is too good as a talent. Demon Blades could use buffs to be competitive (remember when it was a 100% chance to gain fury? that was really fun/good).

Demonic still being 6 seconds still makes the class way worse and lowers the skill cap. Can you guys just let this be a good talent? It’s one of the few fun things about Havoc.

Demon hunter without Furious Gaze remains terrible.

Can you guys just make First blood or Essence break baseline already?

Also please revert the weird changes you made with double jump movement at the start of alpha.


I’m just an Illidan main in Heroes of the Storm. Also, I sometimes play my DH.

If I may ask, The Hunt description: “… increasing your Fury from Demon’s Bites against them by 50%.”

When Demon Blades is selected, it replaces Demon’s Bite. Does this make that part of The Hunt useless, or does it take into account Demon Blades? As it is now, the description doesn’t change when Demon Blades is selected.
Additionally, is The Hunt supposed to pull everything between you and your target? That makes this ability feel like more of a punishment if you don’t have Shadowmeld up.

Also, when using The Hunt, I’d like for my character to scream, “FEEEEL THE HATRED OF TEN THOUUSAND YEAARRRS” and make a satisfying PLUNK! noise when I collide with the enemy. Thanks!


By taking away the Eyebeam CD reduction from consuming souls, you have effectively taken away one of my favorite interactions this spec has. I’m sorry, but this is not a good change. Instead of trying to force people to “have more meaningful choices” in certain talent rows by flat out taking away features from OTHER talent rows, why don’t you just design the talents to be…oh, I don’t know, interesting and powerful in the first place?

Also, there will ALWAYS be one or two talent choices in every tier that will be everyone’s go to for almost all situations, with only a couple outliers here and there. It’s NOT a bad thing that people take Demonic or Demonic Appetite by default currently. If you haven’t guessed by now, people ENJOY the demonic and souls aspect of DH. Stop trying to “fix” what was never broken.

And I’m just gonna come right out and say it: Barely anyone likes momentum. Even in Legion, the SECOND Demonic became viable, people switched so fast off momentum and never looked back. It’s just not fun to play. Turning our biggest mobility CD into a damage CD is crap and you know it. I don’t want to have to choose whether to do more damage with the talent I picked or lose that damage in the chance I may need the mobility in the next 10 seconds. Just scrap momentum and scrap nemesis. Nemesis has been a waste of a talent space since day 1.

Demonic, turning into a demon, eating the souls of your enemies ala pac-man style…honestly these are huge parts of what make DH fun.

And for god’s sake, bring back Fury of the Illidari. Why do specs like Ret and Frost get to keep their artifact abilities from Legion but we can’t ours? And Ebonbolt is SOOO specific to the frost legion artifact. How can they still cast that spell without the weapon, and yet me, as a demon hunter, can’t just twirl my glaives around without mine?



While I love the animation of consuming Soul Shards as Vengeance. Is there anyway you can make the actual healing portion instant while the animation is delayed? Delayed healing feels bad. Below are my thoughts on the class as a whole, some of these ideas are really out there, not all of them need to be taken, I’m just throwing out a bunch of things, I’m no professional, so they might be bad. Be Gentle. I will have cliff notes at the end.

Honestly though, why does Vengeance even have pain(now fury) anymore? It’s not restrictive. And the spec wouldn’t be fun if it became restrictive because our abilities don’t do enough. I feel like Vengeance really needs to go all in on Soul Fragments being our resource. Keep Shear(Though I would much rather Fracture become Baseline, I want to be Fracturing the enemy, not my wrist) and give us a burst way to create Soul Fragments like our Old Artifact ability.

With that, Soul Fragments need to be looked at and consuming Large amount of Soul Fragments needs to be tempered so we still use Soul Cleave. Every Soul Fragment after the 2nd when consumed by an ability is reduced to 80% Flat. As an example Soul Cleave would heal for 200% when consuming 2 Soul Frags, while Spirit Bomb would heal for 440% when consuming 5. I also believe that all Soul Fragments consumed by over capping should be reduced to 70% effectiveness or so to punish for over capping our resource. Finally give us a “oh crap” minor CD that sets us to max Soul Fragments(10 in this case) and instantly consumes them for 840% healing.

Finally I want to look at Mastery. Vengeance has one of the most boring mastery in the game but it is effective. It’s just that it’s a scaling on the functionally of an ability that already has that functionally, it’s just another slider. Comparable to Arms mastery that is getting reworked in Shadowlands. I’ve always thought that Vengeance is that offensive tank and I feel like they should have an offensive Mastery something that’s unique. So how about a mastery that when you consume a Soul Fragment, it explodes dealing AoE damage around you. This damage is doubled while Immo Aura is up. This will probably push Vengeance to best M+ tank though and not help them out in raid which is whats needed, so probably a bad change right now.

Cliff Notes!

  • Pain(Fury) removed, More emphasis on Soul Fragments as a resource.

Soul Fragments

  • No more Delay on healing from Soul Fragments(Animation stays the same).
  • Soul Frag Cap moved to 10
  • Every Soul Fragment after the 2nd when consumed by an ability is reduced to 80% flat.
  • Soul Fragments consumed passively are reduced to 70% effectiveness.


  • Shear/Fracture will be our main generator.
  • CD Generator that will create a bunch(Soul Carver pls)
  • Now that Pain is gone and we no longer gain resource on damage taken, Create Soul Fragments on damage taken(A lot like Gift of the Ox)


  • Soul Cleave 2 Fragments for 200% Healing
  • Spirit Bomb 5 Fragments for 440% Healing and Frailty
  • Oh-No Button sets Fragments to 10 and consume for 840% Healing


  • Old Mastery gets removed, buff Demon Spikes to compensate
  • New Mastery - Defensive - Soulmonger: Consuming Soul Fragments Shields you for [Scales with mastery]. (Too much like BDK imo, but I really like this azerite trait.)
  • New Mastery - Offensive - Immolation: Consuming Soul Fragments damage nearby enemies for [Scales with mastery], this damage is doubled during Immolation Aura.

And that’s it for now!


I am all for making our kit and mastery more Offensive. VDH should genuinely be the offensive tank of WoW, think about it:

  • We don’t use Plate Armor, we don’t Sword & Board, we aren’t a Meat Shield.

DPS should be our niche in the pantheon of tanks, even if that tilts us more in the direction of M+dungeons over raids (which we have been for a while now).


In the next Alpha build, we’ve made this change to Unbound Chaos:

  • Activating Immolation Aura will cause your inner demon to slam into nearby enemies at the end of your next Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.
    • Developers’ notes: We like the feeling of Immolation Aura empowering your Fel Rush, but requiring Fel Rush to be cast while Immolation Aura was active placed too much pressure on that particular window. We want this talent to be for occasionally weaving Fel Rush into your rotation for a big payoff, so we’ve changed the talent to Immolation Aura buffing your next Fel Rush, which means you can find the right time to fit it in.

Havoc is a dead spec unless you revert eye beam CD reduction changes. That is what makes it fun, people like demonic/eye beam, not trash momentum. Unbound chaos change means little if no one wants to play that style.


After playing around with some of the new Vengeance changes, here are my thoughts:

  • I like the collective changes to Immolation Aura through Agonizing Flames, and Charred Flesh. Combined with Burning Alive, I feel like this opens up a new talent build, one that will likely be popular for M+, by allowing us to drop Fiery Brand on a group, and keep it maintained for a decent period of time through Immolation Aura extending the duration. Will also pair well with Infernal Armor in raid settings, giving a decent amount of uptime on the 20% armor bonus. Overall, I appreciate these talent changes opening up alternate builds/playstyles.

  • Thank you for buffing Soul Cleave. I appreciate having a smaller delta between it and Spirit Bomb, so I feel less compelled to play it.

However, there are plenty of issues that remain:

  • Felblade is still totally useless. It’s simply too difficult to fit into the rotation. It consumes a GCD on its own, and then at least 1 more for the extra soul cleave it provides the Fury for. Instead, consider making this a passive talent, that every 12 seconds (or whatever) gives the player the Felblade buff, causing their next Shear/Fracture to leap up to 15 yards, deal 20% increased damage, and increase the Fury generated by 25.

  • The change to Feast of Souls is really just not good enough. It’s such a weak talent. What might actually make this a genuinely good talent is allowing the heal from the talent to stack like Ignite, combining and rolling over into a new heal each time you Soul Cleave, then weakening when the previous one falls off. That would mean you actually get the full heal from the hot all the time, as currently most of the heal is wasted due to spamming multiple Soul Cleaves back to back. In it’s current form, this talent will still never be chosen over Fallout, which provides superior healing by providing actual soul fragments, or Burning Alive, which provides better mitigation against groups.

  • Fracture still feels like a must-pick. It’s so vital to the spec, and making the rotation feel good. I have played the last two years without ever swapping out this talent, and that won’t change now. Fracture, much like the old Rockbiter scenario with Enhancement shamans, needs to be made baseline.

  • Demonic will dominate its row, I am willing to place money on this now. It feels so good to the playstyle, gives control over Meta uptime, and just feels great to play. Void Reaver, on the other hand, is about the most boring talent ever conceived, and Soul Barrier simply doesn’t scale well into high levels of damage, making it inferior to Demonic in almost all scenarios, except perhaps magic damage. Maybe lay into that role. Let Soul Barrier be a pick when magic damage is a major concern, increase its absorption by a decent amount, but have it only absorb magic damage. As for Soul Reaver, just toss it and replace it with something more interesting.

  • Last Resort still feels like a must-pick for anyone doing any serious progression. Having the fallback of a guaranteed life save is generally too good not to have for any VDH doing actually difficult content. Ruinous Bulwark feels too weak, and provides a very small amount of extra healing every 45 seconds (the overheal portion is rarely relevant, as you’re often below 100% hp when you use it). Bulk Extraction feels like it has too long a CD for what it does, and is only really relevant for M+, as it requires 5 targets to actually provide meaningful healing. I’d suggest having Ruinous Bulwark drop the overshield thing, and just reduce the CD of Fel Devastation by 5-10 seconds, to synergize with Demonic. Bulk Extraction should always pull 5 fragments, and be off the GCD, so it can be used as an emergency snap-heal, and maybe drop the CD to 1 minute.

  • And finally, there has still been no change, or even talk of change, to our Mastery. It has to go. Please. It is a win-more stat that only provides mitigation when we least need it, and is big contributor to the high-high’s and low-low’s feeling in our survivability. We desperately need a Mastery that applies at all times, not just when our mitigation is active, to help smooth out our damage curve.

  • Oh, one last pet peeve, but I am still annoyed about the loss of 10 yards on Infernal Strike. Either put it back into Abyssal Strike, or make it a baseline part of the ability. We’ve had a 40 yard range on the ability for four years, there’s no reason to nerf it now.


The DH Necrolord covenant ability really needs some changing - Having the demon spawn and needing to kill it is somewhat awkward already, but honestly it’s fine if it has to be like that.

My main issue is the puddle it creates is extremely tiny. It’s very reminiscent of rune of power in early mists when it was a super tiny circle, it really should just provide the buff to you of increased dmg and reduced dmg taken vs. having to stand in the puddle. If you don’t want to do that, another option is making the puddle bigger, but you risk it obfuscating other mechanics on the ground, so making it a buff really is the best solution.

I really want to pick maldraxxus, I really like the shield (granted it could use some work, however I posted that in another thread), and I like the buff the demon gives and it’s somewhat cool the fantasy behind summoning a demon from the theatre of pain that you duel to the death with - But the pool just kind of ruins it. Please consider changing it.


Speak for yourself. I’m tired of the degenerate demonic/eye beam gameplay. Raddon’s Cascading Eyes in Legion or Furious Gaze/Eye of Rage stacking is stale and the class needs a breath of fresh air.

Unbound Chaos nerf should be reverted, otherwise Trail of Ruin will most likely be the go-to once again. Havoc DH has plenty of bad talents that need to be redone in a way that gives us more meaningful choices.

For example: Insatiable Hunger’s recent change was lazy and fundamentally inferior to an out-of-combat Fury generator such as Burning Hatred or the free generation of Demon Blades once you have a good amount of haste (some niche usage in PvP when paired with Felblade.)


Havoc feels like a dumpster fire to play, obviously excluding tuning as that’s just literal number crunching. It’s so easy to fix this spec mechanically and it’s disgusting the state that it’s in.

  1. Revert Chaos Strike to refund chance scaling with crit chance. I don’t know why this was even gutted in the first place. Not scaling with any stats outside of borrowed power garbage is 70 IQ at best.

  2. Make First Blood baseline. This talent is too strong. IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE MOVED OR NERFED. No one wants to ever go back to not being able to use Blade Dance/Death Sweep on single target.

  3. Delete Nemesis and turn it into Chaos Blades. Nemesis is absolute PEAK pepega and the solution is just get rid of that hot garbage. Nemesis doesn’t feel good to press, meanwhile Chaos Blades depending on tuning could at least make mastery not COMPLETELY dog.

  4. Make Cycle of Hatred reduce cooldown based on fury spent. I know you’re going to rip the Legiondary shoulders and give it to us AGAIN as borrowed power. That is a mistake. Make this talent actually not garbage so that the Demonic build doesn’t die as soon as pre-patch comes.

  5. If you don’t want to do number 1 or 4, then just flat out revert the change to Cycle of Hatred. Put the eyebeam cooldown reduction back on Demonic Appetite. This change was absolutely mindless.

  6. Bring back Fury of the Illidari in some capacity. Even with the 1 minute CD, give us SOMETHING to press.

What is our class fantasy even supposed to be? Is it being a flashy demon? If so then make Demonic baseline, as Demonic is a GREAT talent (spoiler alert: bake Furious Gaze into Demonic, though once again you’re going to take the lazy way out and add it as a legendary effect I’m sure). Speaking of, why was Demonic nerfed? You don’t need to remove what minute amount of skill expression is left in the class. Fitting three Death Sweeps into our Demonic window with haste corruption feels sick, now you want us to only Death Sweep once unless we stack haste KEKW. Is our class fantasy to dash around like a maniac? Make First Blood baseline then, and rework Momentum so it’s not terrible to play at difficult content. Make it Felblade us into the target or SOMETHING that isn’t what Momentum currently is. No one wants to play Momentum for a full tier and get a boss like Fetid or Mythrax where you’re 100% out of your best talent. If you want to make us choose between mobility and burst windows, fine that’s cool, but at least make Momentum not FEEL exponentially bad based on fight design.

Also let’s talk about Felblade/Demon Blades for a moment. Personally I LOVE these two talents. Let’s all just imagine a world where Felblade/Demon Blades/First Blood/Demonic exist with Bloodlet-empowered Throw Glaive and Essence Break in the rotation.

Also, it’s 2020, why is our ONLY DPS CD on a FOUR minute cooldown. Hello?


LMAO xddddddddddddddd

Try again with the Havoc legendaries buddies, these are all completely degenerate.

Chaos Theory is cool tho, just make it higher than 10% lul.

Why is Inner Demons a Legendary, when you could just make it a talent if you Baselined First Blood? HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The Throw Glaive Legendary is actually you trolling us, just make it bloodlet lmao.

What the Christ is Darkest Hour, what DH is dumb enough to EVER use that? Literal bait Legendary btw. Is this expansion our Darkest Hour?

Darkglare Medallion sucks in Torghast and it sucks as a Legendary.

Sigil of the Illidari is thematically cool, but why would you ever pick it since Eyebeam doesn’t exist anymore in a single target rotation and it hits like an emaciated PoW.

I’m going to try to predict the future: Our conduits give a stacking damage increase to Fel Rush, Eyebeam (worthless now), or Annihilation crit chance just to troll us. There’s also going to be a utility conduit that turns blur into an offensive CD when running Momentum. Believe me, this is deeeeeeeefinitely what every DH wants. Good news is, it doesn’t matter that we won’t be having fun in Mythic Raids, we’ll be dc’d half the time anyways.



So here’s why the spec sucks.

Chaos Theory requires First Blood to use it. First Blood is on the same row as Cycle of Hatred, which would massively benefit from Chaos Theory. You can’t have both and have a synergy between them with the Legendary.

Swap First Blood and Trail. Please. I beg of you. Better yet, make First Blood baseline, let that be something you gain as a passive for Dance at 60. Then we can start actually enjoying Havoc. The current spec design isn’t coherent and makes no sense at all. None.

EDIT: It all comes down to First Blood. Havoc as a spec is entirely limited because First Blood is a talent and not something passively added in. The entire spec is pigeonholed because of that one talent and you will never justify Blade Dance without it, nor will Demon Hunters want that talent nerfed. I promise you Havoc would be better off from every perspective if we just had it built in.