FEEDBACK: Demon Hunter Class Changes

Yes meta gives us haste.

My point was that with current state of meta and being 6 seconds, we have to stack obscure amounts of haste to actually hit a point where we do damage in that window.

My solution to that was to add the furious gaze buff to the talent or give us first blood baseline and allow us to talent into FG in its place.

I’m by no means saying its perfect, but currently our demonic window is quite lackluster unless you stack haste on every piece of gear which then takes away from stats that we could further value.

Haste is fine within meta, but unless you pop that 4 minute cd you are left with not much even with that demonic window.

Mayne I wasn’t clear with my post and thats where the confusion came from.

Furious gaze gave us a sort of damage amp when we cast a spell. It added a little synergy to the demonic playstyle that it lacked.

So you want a lot of our damage to scale from a set and forget ability we pop literally only to gain fury? I think that’s bad class design if you ask me.

So in your eyes if all damage a druid did came from thorns you’d be okay with that? Just absolutely degenerate design if you ask me.

Our damage shouldn’t come from a swirling fire that we hit whenever its off its mildly long Cooldown, it should come from our abilities. And currently those abilities when playing demonic are few and far between due to the inevitable nerf and new haste breakpoints we have to hit to even feel remotely fine.

You want to talk about legendary? Because all of them are absolutely, ludicrously, out of sync with our class and add no depth of game play and feel clunky to use. For each legendary you either hope for a prox which the chance is abysmally low, or you throw a glaive at 5 stacks. Nothing that synergises with our current kit at all

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Since you edited. I guess I wasn’t clear now. Immolation aura has a talent now unbound chaos tied to it that does a lot of damage. Immolation aura has a legendary tied to it, fel bombardment, this makes throw glaive do a lot of damage. Then there is the conduit that make immolation aura itself do a lot of damage. That is more what I meant by a lot of our damage coming from immolation aura. Plus it generates fury and more if you are talented for it.

Yeah, almost all our legendaries are terrible. I’ve made multiple posts about that in this thread and others. I actually quite like the Fel Bombardment legendary and adding throw glaive more into the rotation for aoe. That’s just my preference though and you are fine to not like it.

Unbound chaos is an unfriendly to use ability that is overshadowed by trail playstyle.

Unbound in its current state, just like before when blizzard tried to implement it is clunky and doesn’t work. If you hit a pebble your ability casts at stop point, if you hit uneven ground it casts at stop point, if you hit a curve and fling 100 feet forwards it casts at stop point. So unless they fix the inherently broken pathing with fel rush then this talent is also broken.

Not only is it broken, but in a dungeon environment it is a dangerous talent to use, just like momentum. Also in higher tier content you benefit more from the dot than the burst damage of fel barrage or UBC.

Please tell me more about how you think current iteration beta dh is fine. Because at this point I think you are in over your head

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Yeah, I know this. If you look up a couple posts I literally made a whole post about these issue with momentum. I actually haven’t had any issue using it in instanced content though. The only time it might not land where I want is out in the open world. The ground seems pretty flat in dungeons and I haven’t really run into any clutter that stops my fel rush early. I don’t think it’s completely broken, but yes it needs some fixes to work better.

I was just telling you what I meant by damage coming from immolation aura. I didn’t specify enough and you thought I wanted all our damage to come from it ticking passively. If Unbound is fixed, do you have more issues with what I said then? From your post it just seems like the only thing you disagree with is unbound not functioning as well as it should.

You won’t be dashing around as much as momentum, so less dangerous there. The trash packs, from what I have seen, are more spread out in Shadowlands dungeons and you are less likely to pull anything else by fel rushing some random direction. This isn’t really an issue though because you should be fel rushing into the pack to have Unbound hit not fel rushing out of it. If you are talking about frontal cleaves from trash, most of these that I have seen are heavily telegraphed and/or channels. Pretty easy to avoid not fel rushing into those in Shadowlands.

Yes, for some fights you will be taking trail, but there are a lot of add fights in the new raid where you want to burst them down quick. You can store up a charge of unbound, use it right before immolation comes of cd, then use immo, then unbound again and you get even more burst than you do from fel barrage. It’s also uncapped unlike fel barrage or trail from blade dance.

When did I ever say the current iteration beta dh is fine? My first post was just pointing out some flaws with your thinking of your first post. I was fine with your second post and then you edited it because you thought I was talking crazy trying to have immolation do all our damage passively. I just made a second post to better describe what I was trying to say.

How so?

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I never said it was bad damage

What I said was that its broken until they fix the pathing of fel rush. My words were in higher tier content when adds/trash lives a while then the trail talent will still come out on top. Not to mention if you can’t stack all of those adds reliably and have them directly on top of each other then again this talent is quite useless because of how they implemented the design.

You bring up some valid points, and I’m not discrediting that. I’m just explaining how at the end of the day the changes they have made to demon hunter regardless of looking good on paper, in practice are killing havoc as a whole.

The respective nerfs and changes have come from what seems to me the complaints of players that don’t understand that havoc demon hunters may look OP from the outside. But from the inside have been middle of the pack for as long as I can remember in terms of damage. Our viability came from our utility for the most part, not our damage.

To me, it seems like pvp heads got triggered and fanboyed the forums hard enough that dh was nerfed. And quite frankly if the class designer (if there is one) actually played dh he or she would understand that the changes made to dh have left nothing to be desired in terms of fluid or even semi fluid game play.

We are left with a husk of a spec.while changes were made, none of said changes have made DH “feel good”. And no I am not talking numbers here, strictly talking about how the spec has little to no synergies until blizzard decides to build the class around a functioning base toolkit, and not leaving the community to hope each pack has a system that benefits our lackluster base

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This week’s build brings a complete set of level rewards for the post-50 Demon Hunter, including the addition of popular spells Furious Gaze and Revel in Pain.

Havoc has also had a few changes to its talent tree to address Nemesis. Nemesis was intended to be a strong single target sustained option, but it hasn’t proven popular among players. We’re reshuffling the tree a bit, bringing a buffed-up version of Fel Barrage down to the level 50 row and adding a new AoE Fury spender, Glaive Tempest, to the level 30 row.

This creates more interesting choices in the rows on the complexity and payoff you want in your damage rotation. Please give them a try and let us know what you think!

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Thank you Blizzard, this opens up so much and addresses a lot of what the community has been asking for, more variety and more rotational complexity. I was literally about to post a detailed review of the spec, but now with this I’ll have to happily reformat it. One of the only odd omission is First Blood (be prepared to hear a lot of that), but ultimately this is a fantastic direction and I can’t wait to try the new spells.

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Can you guys please look at making First Blood baseline in some way again? You keep buffing the other 2 talents but they will never compete with First Blood. Everyone wants to use blade dance but its not viable in AoE or ST with glaive tempest now being an option. You’ve attached several legendary powers and conduits to an ability that isn’t viable without the First Blood talent. Please reduce Blade Dances fury cost to 15 baseline at least.

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As others have noted, more choices is always good, but you simply MUST bake-in First Blood. I think a lot more options in build (and potential talents and neat stuff you guys could do) come with it base-lined.

Also why call it Glaive Tempest? It’s basically our legion artifact active again, let’s keep the name, Fury of the Illidari sounds much more bad a$$.

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10% Furious gaze is not even remotely close to what the Azerite trait was for us. (keep in mind we stacked 3 Furious Gaze traits)

Buff furious gaze AND make it scale with Agility. Like it gives us haste equal to X% of our Agility. Doing so will replicate the azerite trait so it scales with our gear as we get more ilvl through out the expansion

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FEL BARRAGE

Moving this back down to the 50 Row to replace Nemesis was an inspired decision. I know you’re still in the process of figuring out exactly how much to change and how strong to make it, so I hope these suggestions help:

  • Cooldown & Haste

This will be the only row 50 talent with a cooldown, Momentum and Demonic simply work fluidly with existing spells, so instead of increasing it (to something like Nemesis, which was not popular) I would Reduce the cool down 45 seconds (or even 30) from the 1 minute it stands at now, so we can utilize it more often. This and/or finally allow it to finally scale with HASTE, just like Immo aura and blade dance have always been able to. If haste is able to affect FB, it’s one more step in being able to construct entire builds around it, just like Demonic and especially Momentum have now.

  • Area of Affect

Widen the area of effect from 8 to 10 yards. The BFA range was gutted from Legion, and reclaiming an extra 2 yards will only serve as a small quality of life boon, and better fit the eminence of a Final Tier Talent row.

  • Target Cap

Continuing on the importance of a final tier talent choice, the 5 target cap would feel undeserved and unnecessary. At the very least, it should affect as many as Barrage (which is 8) but ideally FB shouldn’t have any cap at all.

  • Demon Form

Lastly, since Fel Barrage is now competing with Demonic, a wonderful cosmetic flourish would be: Fel Barrage activates demon form for the 3 second duration (just like Infernal Strike and Chaos Nova). That visual is a huge part of our class fantasy and unless we stick to Demonic, we see very little of our iconic form. This would have zero affect on gameplay or power, just cool factor!

Thank you for the exciting changes, I hope you these into account as well!

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Decent changes overall! I will still quote from my initial post…

The major thing that still needs to be addressed. I can’t wait to try out the new changes, but First Blood has to be baseline for Blade dance to be competitive without locking in one of our talent rows.

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Well said man, some of my favorite DH moments are the neat demon/graphic interactions, the chaos strike slam from Legion artifact, the others you mentioned, etc.

I like your thoughts, I’m salty about demonic at 6s, it feels bad, so I keep thinking maybe there’s a way to baseline part of demonic, and have that talent row put the duration back or augment it in a different way. Then we all have the “post eye-beam” moment of coolness as a demonic and get a death sweet/annihilate or 3 in, and still have a choice in that row.

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Seem like great changes so far. Thank you for listening to a lot of the problems demon hunters had. Really like the fury of the illidari inspiration from glaive tempest.

There are a few concerns that I’ve seen people have with Glaive Tempest so far. Right now we aren’t really sure what the final version of the spell is going to be like because of the obviously over-tuned damage on it. Will it have a cooldown and keep the high damage or will the damage be toned down and stay as a spamable fury spender? From this blue post it seems to be leaning more towards a spamable fury spender. This leads to a lot of issues with the level 40 talent row and the use of blade dance.

In the last blue post the talents in the level 40 row were mentioned as options for AOE damage.

If glaive tempest is going to be a spammable fury spender for AOE these talents need a rework or need to go back to being focused on single target.

First Cycle of Hatred. We wouldn’t be using chaos strike in AOE anymore with glaive tempest being spamable. This means Cycle of Hatred only has synergy with our toolkit on single target when taking glaive tempest.

Second First Blood. Still would like to have this baseline, as would a lot of others. Here it depends on the tuning of glaive tempest. Where will the damage of glaive tempest be compared to blade dance? Will glaive tempest stay uncapped, while blade dance remains capped at 5? If blade dance will hit harder than glaive tempest then this just solidifies First Blood as the dominant choice again for this row, especially in aoe. If blade dance is weaker than glaive tempest then there isn’t much reason to press blade dance in aoe. First Blood would still make blade dance an option for single target, but except for some interactions with conduits and legendaries, there wouldn’t be a lot of use for blade dance. Maybe bring back the 100% dodge chance to blade dance and make it more utility driven except for when First Blood is taken?

Lastly, Essence Break. You changed this in Shadowlands to be more aoe focused, but it might become even more irrelevant with the addition of glaive tempest. If glaive tempest is spamable we won’t be using chaos strike in aoe. Depending on the tuning blade dance might be the only thing that essence break is actually giving benefit to in aoe.

The talents in this level 40 row seem to be more single target focused if glaive tempest is a spamable aoe ability. With your current philosophy of active abilities being better, glaive tempest should be the best choice in its row then or at least compete heavily with Unbound Chaos.

These are some of the main concerns I’ve seen so far from myself and others in regards to glaive tempest. I really like the idea of the ability, but to give more concrete feedback I think we need a better idea of what you envision this ability to be.

RIP Glaive Tempest you were a cool idea while it lasted.

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Exactly! Thank you, couldn’t agree more on the graphic interactions and moments of cool, as the visuals keep us engaged and enjoying the aesthetic of the class.

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Just wanted to provide some feedback on the Demon Hunter changes. Lots of good changes here, and I think they are well received, but I feel that the new Essence Break just feels weird being on the same row as First Blood. I feel that First Blood should be baseline, or place it on a different row. The talent, Essence Break, will never see play if you cannot easily use Blade Dance during that window. And without First Blood, that ability feels nearly useless. Also, I think having Glaive Tempest on a cooldown to maintain its high damage would bring a lot of fun to the class, rather than have it compete with Blade Dance.

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Are there more VDH changes, or are you telling us, out of all the feedback, what you took from it, is we wanted Revel in Pain?

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Vengeance has been underwhelming for most of BFA, and it seems like very little has changed in SL. We barely got touched with the unpruning, our legendaries and conduits are bland and uninspired, we are losing our best sources of mitigation, and what little choice is in our talents boils down to “do you want to be bad at damage or mitigation?”. Soul Cleave being target capped and doing poor damage continues to baffle me, especially when spirit bomb has been stated as not intended to be a primary source of damage. Maybe another 20% buff will fix it. The most you can really say about the spec is that it exists. It needs way more attention than it has received so far in this expansion cycle. If that is the plan, then it is deeply disappointing as a Veng main since 7.0.

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I was talking about the buffs leading into Shadowlands, not in BfA, since Soul Cleave was buffed again in the Alpha.

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Glaive Tempest now changed to cost 30 fury and have a 20 sec cooldown and capped to 5 targets. Not really what I had in mind when you said AoE Fury Spender. If you want to call it a fury spend I think the cooldown needs to be removed and the fury cost and damage be adjusted to have it be something that replaces chaos strike in aoe situations.

I guess this solves the issues that it would have brought up with other talents, but seems pretty boring now. It’s just another short cooldown fire and forget button that we press when it lights up. If this is your intention I would say just remove the fury cost of it and just keep it as another short cooldown we can talent into. At least remove the target cap on it you are going to place a cooldown and fury cost on it.

You got our hopes up only to crush them again.

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