FEEDBACK: Demon Hunter Class Changes

Updated August 19

This week’s build brings a complete set of level rewards for the post-50 Demon Hunter, including the addition of popular spells Furious Gaze and Revel in Pain.

Havoc has also had a few changes to its talent tree to address Nemesis. Nemesis was intended to be a strong single target sustained option, but it hasn’t proven popular among players. We’re reshuffling the tree a bit, bringing a buffed-up version of Fel Barrage down to the level 50 row and adding a new AoE Fury spender, Glaive Tempest, to the level 30 row.

This creates more interesting choices in the rows on the complexity and payoff you want in your damage rotation. Please give them a try and let us know what you think!


July 8

In the next Alpha build, we’ve made this change to Unbound Chaos:

  • Activating Immolation Aura will cause your inner demon to slam into nearby enemies at the end of your next Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.
    • Developers’ notes: We like the feeling of Immolation Aura empowering your Fel Rush, but requiring Fel Rush to be cast while Immolation Aura was active placed too much pressure on that particular window. We want this talent to be for occasionally weaving Fel Rush into your rotation for a big payoff, so we’ve changed the talent to Immolation Aura buffing your next Fel Rush, which means you can find the right time to fit it in.

July 1

Fair tidings Illidari. The next build of the Shadowlands Alpha will have a number of changes based on your feedback. We’re generally happy with the core kit of both Demon Hunter specializations, but want to improve talent diversity.

Havoc

  • Demonic Appetite - Consuming a soul fragment no longer reduces the cooldown of Eye Beam.

  • Cycle of Hatred - When Chaos Strike refunds Fury, it will reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam (was Metamorphosis) .

    • Developers’ notes: We’ve reconsidered the addition of Eye Beam cooldown reduction to Demonic Appetite, believing it will make that talent a dominant choice in the row. Instead, we’re placing that benefit on Cycle of Hatred, which is competing against other options for AOE damage.
  • Insatiable Hunger: Demon’s Bite deals 20% more damage and generates 5 to 10 additional Fury.

    • Developers’ notes: Since this ability only increased the maximum additional Fury that Demon’s Bite could generate, it was possible to frequently see no noticeable benefit. The talent will now always result in at least 5 extra Fury generated.
  • Immolation Aura now generates 20 Fury when cast.

  • Burning Hatred: Immolation now generates an additional 60 Fury over 12 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: We added Immolation Aura back to Havoc baseline because it was a nice mid-tier AOE damage ability that could be shared across the specs. Player feedback made it clear that Fury generation was an important part of the ability, so we moved the initial burst of Fury to the main ability. The Fury generation over time will remain in the talent.
  • Fel Mastery has been replaced with a new talent, Unbound Chaos.

  • Unbound Chaos: While Immolation Aura is active, your inner demon slams into nearby enemies at the end of your Fel Rush, dealing Chaos damage.

    • Developers’ notes: Fel Mastery was a simple buff to Fel Rush damage that required frequent reorientation to your target and as a result primarily saw play alongside Momentum. By binding the damage bonus to Immolation Aura, we feel like the talent can be taken on its own or alongside Momentum.

Vengeance

  • Immolation Aura and Fiery Brand tooltips were changed to show the total amount of damage done over the duration of the spell.

  • Soul Cleave damage increased 20%.

    • Developers’ notes: We often see feedback that Soul Cleave is a low priority button because the passive consumption of soul fragments means no healing is lost if it isn’t pressed, and Spirit Bomb offers more damage and healing per soul fragment. We made a change already that adds additional healing to Soul Cleave for each orb consumed, but also we’re increasing the damage of Soul Cleave as well. We’d like to see Spirit Bomb used intermittently to apply Frailty, but Soul Cleave to be the spec’s primary source of healing and damage.
  • Agonizing Flame no longer increases the damage of Immolation Aura. It now increases its duration by 50%.

    • Developers’ notes: Increasing the duration of Immolation Aura increases the value of the talent’s movement speed buff and creates synergy with other talents like Infernal Armor and the re-design of Charred Flesh mentioned below.
  • Feast of Souls healing increased by 25%.

    • Developers’ notes: This talent is intentionally straightforward, offering an option that makes Vengeance’s primary consumer Soul Cleave better. It’s a fine option, but may need additional tuning to close the gap with the more active options in the row.
  • Charred Flesh has been redesigned: Immolation Aura damage now increases the duration of your Fiery Brand by 0.5 seconds.

    • Developers’ notes: Fire damage alone was not an attractive option when compared to the other options in the row. This interaction with Immolation Aura can significantly increase the uptime of a key defensive ability while also increasing its overall damage. This creates interesting synergies with anything that modifies Fiery Brand or Immolation Aura such as the talents Agonizing Flames and Burning Alive.

Please continue to reply with your thoughts on Demon Hunters in Shadowlands!


April 9

In this thread, we’re discussing Demon Hunter class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!

11 Likes

Currently playing on Alpha with my Vengeance DH. Feels great to have Fel devastation to not only add increased DPS but with the Demonic talent in place to give me temp metamorphosis is a nice health/damage increase.

However, I still feel like I am doing the same rotation from BFA with only adding in Fel Dev as an extra hit every 45 seconds. It’s still a really fun class to play, just feels not as fresh if that makes sense. I run out of attack options for a second or so after my second rotation. If the GCD was like .5 seconds faster I wouldnt just stand there from time to time auto attacking waiting on ALL of my abilities due to the GCD.

Necrotic wake dungeon was fun and easily managed by the DH Vengeance abilities.

25 Likes

I will echo what Iszabelluh is saying, as it stands we are doing the exact same thing with VDH that we did last patch except having Fel Dev in rotation at times.

I did have a lot of fun as VDH in the new dungeon but the class didn’t feel “new” to me like some of the other classes i’ve briefly tried out with their changes.

A simple talent suggestion as well:

  • Tier 1: Felblade would be better if it provide some AOE Damage. Otherwise there is no reason to give up a free Sigil of Flames and lower cooldown on our Leap.

  • Tier 2 - Feast Of Souls could be nice as a stacking buff, otherwise no reason to not take Fallout still. Burning Alive, for as long as Fiery Brand is up might be more advantageous to spread to 2 or 3 people instead of just 1.

14 Likes

In regards to how fun it feels to play Havoc:

I realize we are playing characters that don’t have their full max level options from covenants/soulbinds and legendaries however, it’s hard not to notice how much worse the class feels to play without our core azerite trait from BFA, Furious Gaze. The demonic window being shorter than before (8 seconds in BFA to 6 in SL) and also not being able to press as many buttons in that window compared to BFA should really be addressed in my opinion.

Picking Essence Break over First Blood also slows down your single target rotation, so just based off of that I feel really disincentivized from picking Essence Break. I wish one of those talents could be made baseline (perhaps making EB baseline with a higher CD?).

I was also disappointed to find out that even though Immolation Aura is baseline, it doesn’t give you fury without selecting the talent for it. Initially when I read it was being made baseline I was excited because I favor this playstyle a lot more in raiding content. Making the fury gain from Immolation Aura baseline to havoc would make the felblade + demonblade playstyle a lot smoother/consistent.

To sum it up, if you’re trying to play one of your talent builds from BFA, it just feels like a massive downgrade, of course this is not considering what power increases Havoc can get at max level.

90 Likes

Agree with Iszabelluh here on point that VDH feels absolutely the same with the same must-have talents - spirit boms is still doing most of damage and you cannot skip it. Rotation is the same once again with addition of fel devastation which gives you extra meta, but healing is subpar if you compare it to SB.

Would be awesome to see Fel Devastation buffed to be more of impact in healing/defence.

9 Likes

Right now havoc feels weak, playable of course but kind of muted. This may just be the dramatic difference of playing my live DH to these templates though, plus not having covenant abilities to test out. Anyway there are my thoughts on the talents so far:

With immolation aura being baseline, burning hatred should just be baked into it. It isn’t an interesting talent (none on that tier are) and immolation aura is hardly worth casting without it.

Fel Mastery still a lame talent no one is going to take, remove or fix it. I like Fel Barrage personally but trail of ruin is still going to be the default pick.

Removing 5% passive leech on soul rending feels pretty bad. Maybe that is just the crappy gear on the template toon but it feels useless now to spec into. Which is too bad I always enjoyed and picked this talent in the past. The extra leech added onto meta isn’t really that important and not really a great bonus from losing 5% baseline. This talent is going to be dead now in its current form.

Just stop with essence break, it is better than dark slash but as long as you have it on a tier with first blood no one is going to be able to take it. I actually think it could be fun with the improved version now but no one wants 35 fury blade dance.

Demonic is confusing, tooltip says 6 seconds, its 8 on live, and is giving 8 seconds on alpha. What is the intended uptime?

Master of the glaive should be a pvp talent. I want to have it for pvp, and usually get stuck with it in pve by forgetting to remove it. It should be replaced with something more interesting and moved to pvp talents.

57 Likes

I’m wondering if they’re expecting the soul bind and covenant systems to make up for the “fresh” feeling for VDH. I haven’t played any Havoc yet to give an honest answer.

I do understand this is merely a template and we have none of the new zone abilities but, I’d rather have the class to have more core essentials vs relying on the zone. I’m also doing my very best to not be biased because my current VDH on retail does have the azerite system and abilities which obviously play a major role into damage and mitigation. However, with or without azerite gear I am still running the same exact talents (with the exception of Demonic for Fel Dev) and rotations as BFA into Shadowlands.

It’s not bad, its just not…great. I’m hoping to see more things developed as the Alpha continues along and into beta.

9 Likes

Havoc

Demonic Appetite is almost so crucial now a days it feels like it should be baked in at this point. Not to mention the cooldown for eyebeam works directly compliments Blind Fury, a competitive talent in that row, so that still doesn’t make much sense. And Felblade I feel bad for, because it’s such a cool looking spell, but is never and will never be picked for yet another expansion (unless maybe going for a hardcore momentum build). Make FB or DA baseline, Blizz, this row still feels bad.

Burning Hatred is just cheap. You give us Immo Aura but then take away the component we all used it for? I’m confused. This does free up Demon Blades kinda, but overall it feels unfinished.

Fel Mastery gaining 50% damage is once again not thought out. If you wanted to promote Fel Rush, I’m all for it. Give it another cast or make it go further, or shorter with more power etc. Just giving it a baby boost doesn’t really do anything. I tried it with the Momentum build, but didn’t see a huge change even there.

Essence Break - look I get what you’re going for here. I believe the combo would be immo aura, essence break, eye beam (into demonic form) then blade dance and chaos strike, but the windows are so short (and demon form is shorter too?) that we barely get anything in by that point, and don’t have the fury to get more than one hit unless you go blind fury.
All of this really need to be addressed, because right now the synergy is just nonexistent.

Demonic/Momentum/Nemesis - once again, this isn’t going to be a competition at all and you’re throwing away ideas. Personally I really enjoyed the idea of momentum, dancing around in burst windows, but even now it still doesn’t look like it competes at all, and takes 3 times the work to accomplish correctly.
I have confidence you can make these more captivating and pickable, Blizz.

Vengeance

This will be shorter because others have gone over this already.
I Love Fel Devastation being part of the kit now, thank you! I am sad, however, that it’s not a true damaging ability, but more a healing oh-crap option. Back in Legion, VDH had some of the most impressive damage in the game… but I won’t go into that.

Essentially, we’re still stuck in the old Abyssal Strike, Fracture, Spirit bomb build. Again. I mean at this point Spirit Bomb is so CORE to the spec, and why you haven’t just made it baseline is baffling to me.

It’s fun to weave in Fel Dev in once in a while, but overall, not much has changed. Not even Concentrated Sigils, which aside from the tiny dps bump, we can already do with macros. I mean, how has this still been overlooked after 2 expansions?

Someone mentioned Felblade getting an AOE component and I think that’s a fantastic idea as well. Anything to make it actually worthwhile, since AS in that row just dominates and for good reason. With as few actual spells as VDH actually has, I still believe poor FelBlade would be nice to have built in as well, since it doesn’t do a ton as it stands (the mob target nice, but rarely ever seen or needed as a tank).

Overall, I like that things are changing and am excited what later alpha and beta will bring, but right now it simply feels like more of the same with 1 spell added for each spec.

56 Likes

Also, just a fun change. I’d love to be able to actually use my wings on my DH to fly. The same way a druid has flight form or Worgen has their “running wild”. While it’s nothing that really changes the Shadowlands changes. It’s just a fun thing to add.

44 Likes

I have played VDH since Legion launched, and have played little of anything else since then. As such, you might imagine that I am pretty thoroughly invested in seeing the spec viable and healthy, and so this entire post will stem from that. Bear in mind, this post is going to be pretty long and thorough.

The Good:

  • Soul Cleave healing scales with soul consumption. Gives the ability a stronger identity.
  • Demonic as a talent. Gives us what we’ve been wanting for a long time, which was control over our transformations into Meta, rather than RNG-based ones. Fantastic stuff.
  • Similarly, making Fel Devastation baseline. This is easily one of the coolest abilities in the game, in my opinion, in terms of style and flavour. Feels good whenever I get to use it, especially in conjunction with Demonic.
  • Elysian Decree feels really great. I love that this ability counts as a genuine Sigil ability, and has synergy with other Sigil abilities and talents (eg. Quickened Sigils reduces its activation time and cooldown). I’m looking forward to testing out the other Covenant abilities, but so far the Kyrian one is quite excellent.

The Meh:

  • Folding Flame Crash into Abyssal Strike. Combines two commonly taken talents, but also means we just lose 10 yards off our Infernal Strike range for no real reason. I’d honestly prefer to just have the increased range, over dealing a minor amount of damage through Sigil of Flame (others may disagree, personal preference for me). Consider increasing the base range of Infernal Strike to 40 yards. We’ve had it for 2 full expansions, there seems no reason for that to be changed now.

The Bad:

  • Our Mastery. It’s bad. It’s always been bad, but was made worse in BfA when we lost a lot of uptime on Demon Spikes. It is a ‘win-more’ stat, providing more mitigation when we least need it, and absolutely nothing when DS is down. There have been many suggestions made (Healing for % of Fire damage dealt (Charred Warblades), gaining X% damage reduction when consuming a soul fragment (Painbringer), Increasing healing from consuming soul fragments, gaining an absorb shield when consuming soul fragments (Soulmonger), and others). Any one of these would provide us with a mastery that functions at all times, rather than only when our mitigation is up. It is a big part of why our health can spike so wildly. Please, please consider giving us a new Mastery. Almost anything else would be superior to what we have now, which is a stat that most VDH’s consider to be a dead stat.
  • Pain/Fury is still not a meaningful resource. Generating more Fury doesn’t really translate into anything meaningful. We are capped by how many free GCDs we have to spend Fury, and it is quite common to cap out on Fury (especially in Meta), and simply not care because you have no way to spend it, and nothing meaningful to spend it on even if you could. Looking at similar resources (namely Rage, with Prot Wars and Guardian Druids), those specs have ways to spend excess resources off the GCD. We don’t. If we generate more, we have nothing to spend it on. Perhaps an ability off the GCD that consumed Fury to empower our next Soul Cleave to do more damage/healing. Anything at all would be useful.
  • Our damage is weak. While this is a bit hard to gauge given the stat squish, a problem our spec has struggled with for some time is how weak our baseline damage is. With Spirit Bomb, it becomes okay, but without it, its terrible, which is a big part of why the talent feels so incredibly mandatory. This has changed only recently due to our damage being propped up by Corruptions, but this will obviously be going away in the new xpac, and we will go back to being very weak damage tanks without Spirit Bomb. I do not want to go back to feeling forced into the Spirit Bomb playstyle in order to do meaningful damage.
  • Our Talent Tree. It’s still bad, and we still have row after row in which there is one very clear winner, and two very poor talents. I’ll go into this row by row, and explain exactly why:

Tier 15: Abyssal Strike will remain the clear winner. It is the only talent that provides meaningful utility. Agonizing Flames provides a small movement speed bonus when we don’t need it (ie. we’re already in melee), and is uncontrollable due to being a major part of our rotation. Felblade is still unusable, due to the problem I stated above with Fury. Felblade gives us too much Fury we have no use for. If Fury became a meaningful resource on its own, the Felblade could be a meaningful choice, but will remain a dead talent until that becomes the case. My suggestion is to replace Agonizing Flames with Fel Rush, but only with a single charge. This would give a meaningful choice in terms of mobility, providing VDHs with a new form of movement, at the cost of losing the CD reduction on Infernal Strike.

Tier 25: Fallout remains the best choice. Feast of Souls is an incredibly weak talent that provides only a small, unstacking HoT. Burning Alive is now even worse than BfA with the loss of the dot portion. My suggestion: Remake Feast of Souls to increase healing from Soul Fragments by X%. Change Burning Alive to Revel in Pain, increasing Fiery Brand by 2 seconds, and providing a shield for up to 20% of max health after it expires, based on damage dealt to the target.

Tier 30: Spirit Bomb will be the inescapable choice as it is currently. The ability is simply too strong, and provides significantly more damage than the other two talent choices, while also providing increased healing. Infernal Armor is okay, but the uptime is only ~1/3-1/2, and the damage reflection is a joke. Consider folding the old Agonizing Flames into this talent, increasing the damage of Immo Aura by 30-40%, such that the damage might be somewhat competitive with Spirit Bomb. Charred Flesh is a terrible, bad, no good, awful talent. It is laughably bad. Get rid of this abomination immediately. I suggest returning our old Artifact ability, Soul Carver, in its place. This would make the entire row a choice of different defensive+offensive talents, rather than one defensive, and one offensive talent competing against a talent that does both, and does it better.

Tier 35: Fracture will be the #1 choice, once again. Xaedys has explained this to death in the Demon Hunter forums. Fracture makes the rotation actually work, by freeing up GCDs for non-builder abilities, because those abilities no longer have to compete against the opportunity cost of not using your builder. This is why the FtD builds do nothing but spam Shear, because no other ability is worth using over generating more Fragments. I feel very strongly that Fracture should have been made baseline, because it is crucial to making our playstyle work and feel good. Soul Rending will never be chosen, due to the same issue as our Mastery, providing more healing when we need it least, and almost no benefit outside that. Feed the Demon would be a decent talent if it didn’t mean giving up Fracture. My suggestion is making Fracture baseline, and to rework Soul Rending to reduce the cooldown of Meta by X seconds per soul fragment consumed.

Tier 40: Sigil of Chains, the end. This will be the choice in almost all cases, because it provides the spec with utility it cannot get elsewhere. I’d honestly like to see Chains made into a baseline ability, and replaced with Cycle of Binding. As long as Chains remains a talent, VDHs will pretty much always choose it for the incredible utility it provides. Quickened Sigils is fine. Concentrated Sigils should have the downside removed.

Tier 45: I can’t see any scenario in which Demonic is not taken. It feels so good, provides a decent amount of Meta uptime. Void Reaver is quite possibly the most boring talent in the game, and I will never choose it for that reason alone, even if it mathematically comes out on par with Demonic. Soul Barrier feels too weak to compete with Demonic. Both provide short term mitigation/healing on a relatively short CD, but Demonic is far more likely to keep a tank alive, while Soul Barrier will crack in 1-2 hits and dissipate.

Tier 50: I strongly suspect that Last Resort will continue to be the talent of choice for this tier. Both of the new talents feel too weak compared to the utility of a guaranteed life-saver through Last Resort. Ruinous Bulwark is way too weak. A 15% increase in healing to an ability we use once every 45 seconds is just way too low, and it has counter-synergy with Demonic, a talent almost everyone will be using. Bulk Extraction feels okay, but I think the current cooldown is too long. My suggestion is that Ruinous Bulwark increase healing of Fel Devastation by 30%, and reduce its CD by 10 seconds. Bulk Extraction should have its CD reduced to 1 minute.

I apologize for this post being so long, but I have a lot of feelings about this, and I really am hoping that the current state of VDH on the Alpha will not go live. Our Talent Tree, especially, still needs a lot of work to avoid yet another expansion of having a cookie cutter tree where one talent on every row is the clear winner, and we have absolutely no choice about what talents to take.

76 Likes

Excellent post and suggestions. I hope they take our words to heart, because these specs could be incredibly fun if the proper changes are made before it’s too late and we get another BFA

17 Likes

I’m hoping that by giving this feedback early in Alpha, there’s still time to make changes.

25 Likes

Let’s talk more HAVOC TALENTS:

I’ve already posted about the first row and how not only is there no synergy, but the the talents that Could benefit each other are pitted against each other. Read up for that. Demonic Appetite should be baked in so we can get the most out of Blind Fury potentially, and FelBlade needs something to be competitive in any way, or could be part of the kit as well, since we have the fewest spells in the game.

But let’s focus on BURNING HATRED, as that talent feel indicative of what seems to be the new ethos of BFA and Shadowlands, and very bad path.

Instead of coming up with a new and exciting spell or augment or visual or ability, it feels like these talents are just pieces of what should have been a whole, separated in order to create filler. And look, I know how hard it is to come up with balance everything, but the last thing anyone wants are more dead talents and filler. And we know you’re capable of incredible things.

Separating the fury component of Immolation Aura just so you can dangle it back in with a talent is what people hated about BFA. Don’t do more of that.

FEL MASTERY getting a bit more damage does not change it fundamentally enough for anyone to take it. Like I said before, give it 1) another charge perhaps, or a 2) lower cooldown or hell even 3) a different color visual Along with the damage (maybe. a dot attached?), then you’ve fundamentally changed something, and not just tacked on something that feels like it should have been there in the first place.

ESSENCE BREAK is proving to be even less popular than a pimple on prom night. Turns out DH players don’t want a tight and unforgiving window of damage for 2 spells. This also plays into making the Demonic talent give even less time in Meta than before, which I hope does not become 6 seconds like planned.

I would suggest replacing Essence Break with something more impactful, or even combining it with Cycle of Hatred, so that you get the dps boost, but it also pushes you just a bit further towards Meta; our favorite spell/cooldown.

NEMESIS is so unused in it’s current form that if it was a person, I’d drop off a wall-chicken just to make sure they were eating enough. And had a pulse. This talent is the epitome of boring, and doesn’t belong in our talent tree or anywhere in this game. Or, if you must, once again pair it with something actually interesting and worthy of taking over what has become THE signature ability/talent; Demonic.

MOMENTUM, once again, is a great idea in theory. But as we talked about before, the amount of work required to enact every benefit from it requires so much more than Demonic, for about the same dps, that it elicits zero persuasion to play over easy, cool, demon-form shenanigans.

My suggestion - Selecting Momentum - you also gain a new Fel Rush that either:

  1. targets the enemy selected (instead of just shoots you in a direction)
  2. Fel Rushes back to the same location after reaching the end of Fel Rush
  3. uses Felblade to return to the targeted enemy

This would make the “rotation” of it all feel so much more fluid and fun and cool looking, without the dangers involved with dashing all over, especially in a boss fight. And give it an actually reason to be selected over Demonic.

You’ve still got plenty of time to make some small but incredible changes that would really gives our Havoc Demon Hunters some cool new ways to shine, without changing anything too intrinsic to the spec.

40 Likes

For what it’s worth, this appears to operate the same way it does on live; you enter demon form for the duration of the cast and then 6 seconds (8 on live) following it finishing. The way it is written is a bit misleading. I submitted a report for the way it’s phrased, suggesting something along the lines of “Eye Beam causes you to immediately enter demon form, lasting 6 seconds after it finishes dealing damage.”

Note: I haven’t played BFA since a few months after launch, but I enjoyed the versatility that Havoc provided when I quit. My issues can be taken with a grain of salt given that I’m not actively playing retail.

What I like the most: talent synergies; both direct, and tangentially. This can be particularly noted with Demonic Appetite, Cycle of Hatred, and Demonic as a way to maximize the uptime of demon form. Going further, I would like it more if Trail of Ruin partook in this synergy by dealing more damage while it becomes Death Sweep. This also allows for more mix-and-match synergies based on my playstyle.

In the same vein, what if Fel Blade generated less Fury (or did less damage), and caused the next two auto attacks to hit twice. I’d still take it situationally, and when I do choose it then also comboing it with Demon Blades becomes far more appealing.

I enjoy that Demonic Appetite becomes more powerful with our currently available covenant ability as it allows me to guarantee a 6-second cooldown reduction every minute. I hope this continues to be part of my decision-making process when choosing a covenant and talents. Further, though, I wish interrupting or consuming magic successfully spawned a soul fragment instead of just generating Fury.

At the start of BFA I was able to run Momentum, and centering my play around it was so much fun, I hope I’m able to meaningfully do that again.

Fel Mastery still feels lackluster. Assuming a single target with maximum usage, this would do 20% less damage than the burst of Fel Barrage. If I choose Momentum, I’m probably picking Fel Barrage so I can maximize my burst. If I choose Demonic, I’m probably picking Fel Barrage to use in the downtime of my demon form, or at the end of it to utilize extra leech. The only time I’ve taken Fel Mastery is when I specifically had an ability in Torghast that increased my Fel Rush damage-the versatility of that was also fun, though, but that speaks more to the nature of Torghast.

I also enjoy Immolation Aura being a baseline ability, but at the moment Burning Hatred feels strange. I often use it in Torghast as a way to frontload damage, and not much else. I think it could be retooled.

Personally, I’m pretty happy with the current state of Havoc. :slight_smile:

1 Like

With regard to Havoc, I doubt that there’s really much opportunity for much in the way of a more large-scale rework, so I’m going to do my best to provide feedback within the limits of the current talents (with one exception, but it’s a potential suggestion).

First Blood: Too strong to be something that has to compete as a talent. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, it adds a button to our single target rotation (the idea of just spamming Chaos Strike again feels bad, I don’t want to go back to the Nighthold days). The current effect being built into our spec seems to be out of the question at this point (unless…?), so trying to make Essence Break a thing just isn’t going to happen. My best suggestion would be to just switch it and Trail of Ruin, so that the third row of talents is First Blood / Fel Mastery / Fel Barrage, and the fifth row of talents is Cycle of Hatred / Trail of Ruin / Essence Break.

Alternatively, if you did decide to build the current effect of First Blood into the spec, you could just take Balanced Blades (3% increased Blade Dance damage per target hit, from the Legion Artifact) or Revolving Blades and slot that in its place.

Fel Barrage: This talent feels bad and jarring. You stop everything you’re doing to channel an ability with a flat 3 second duration. Not sure how many people actually like the feel of Fel Barrage, but it could easily be changed out to Fury of the Illidari or something. I’m not going to provide numeric feedback on this solely because numbers can change. Capping it also ends up doing a lot more damage to this talent ever really being taken.

Cycle of Hatred: Hate it. Please just directly copy Delusions of Grandeur if this is going to exist. Fury Spending is much more consistent than Chaos Strike refunds if those refunds are a constant flat 40% chance.

Demonic: Not sure what the intention is with the nerf. If the intention is to make haste more valuable and add a skill cap, then go for it. If the intention was to make Havoc less skill-capped, that won’t work. The top end of players will just stack haste and play around Blade Dance cooldowns before they Eye Beam. Mathematically, all you need is 28% haste before Meta to get two Sweeps in a Demonic window if you play around it well enough. Otherwise I can’t really see any reason to reduce the window from 8 to 6 outside of just reducing the amount of time we spend in Meta.

Just a first pass of feedback. Can’t really provide much more than that before Covenants are fully revealed, Legendary effects are known, and Trinkets/sets later in the expansion are discovered.

Edit due to a potentially dumb thing I thought of: If Demonic is kept at 6 seconds, and if there is no incentive to keep Eye Beam channeling its full duration, there could be a mathematical argument for cutting the duration short to guarantee a second Death Sweep. Potentially.

19 Likes

Havoc

Primary Concern: Some talents still don’t feel very worthwhile.

Talents

Lv 15 Row

Blind Fury: Exactly the same as BFA. This might have some value in high target burst AoE, but with the buff to Demonic Appetite I think nothing is going to contest with it from an overall perspective. I think if you tied some Haste into this(similar to Furious Gaze) that this can compete.

Demonic Appetite: This got such a huge buff with the addition of Cooldown Reduction on Eye Beam. It was already a fairly strong talent, but with more being put onto it, it’s going to be top tier compared to the other two in the row.

Felblade: This talent had very little use all of BFA and it’s going to be even less used with the buff to Demonic Appetite. I wouldn’t even know how to buff this to make it viable, I think maybe a new talent should be placed here.

Lv 25 Row

Insatiable Hunter: I like how it got slightly buffed to increase the damage on Demon’s Bite, however it does so little damage already being a resource generating spell that it’s not really worthwhile. I gave this feedback during BFA, but I still strongly believe that it needs to give a flat value increase to Fury rather than “up to 10”.

Demon Blades: Again this was rarely used in BFA, it might see use again on pure single target with mid-high haste values, otherwise I don’t think it’ll be too good, especially with the Felblade synergy being inadvertently nerfed.

Burning Hatred: I like that Immolation Aura was made baseline for Havoc and I like that the duration was slightly increased. I think this is still going to be the optimal talent for the row for every situation just because of how weak the other options are.

Lv 30 Row

Trail of Ruin: Still a really good steady/sustained AoE talent and strong on single target when paired with First Blood.

Fel Mastery: I really wish this would disappear already. This really has no value and it’s more detrimental to the spec than helpful; causing you to use movement abilities to deal damage and regularly having Fel Rush move you out of melee range. There really needs to be a new talent to replace this.

Fel Barrage: This is still going to be the king of burst AoE and for open world activities.

Lv 40 Row

Cycle of Hatred: This still feels worthless, despite being buffed to 4 seconds. There’s two primary issues with how this talent works. 1) It relies on the RNG of Chaos Strike’s refund to reduce the cooldown, which hasn’t been linked to the crit stat since Legion. 2) Even if the proc rate was 50% you’d have to be extremely lucky to get one extra meta over a 6+ minute encounter. I think what would add a ton of value to this talent would be if they worked exactly like the legendary shoulders from Legion, so that all fury spent reduces the cooldown and reduce the cooldown reduction back to 2 or even 3 seconds.

First Blood: Works exactly the same as it always has. I really like the idea of having Blade Dance in the primary Demon Hunter rotation.

Dark Slash: It’s nice that this was turned into an AoE ability that also effects Blade Dance. It was also really nice to make this Chaos Damage rather than Physical Damage so that it will scale with Mastery as the expansion progresses and bypass armor. I can definitely see this getting used on AoE encounters and in M+. I’m just concerned that First Blood will still be better because of the cost reduction tied to Blade Dance.

Lv 50 Row

Demonic: I don’t like the duration nerf on this. In my opinion Demonic is the most fun of the talents in this row because it incorporates a lot of Demon Hunter flavor to the class. Compared to the other options this is enjoyable from a gameplay perspective.

Momentum: This was an amazingly fun talent back in Emerald Nightmare. I think the issue is it got nerfed after being strong in EN. I don’t think this has a fitting place for Demon Hunter anymore, it only worked in Emerald Nightmare so well because of how large a lot of the encounters were so that you’d never lose uptime on the boss. The BFA addition to add Fury with Vengeful Retreat did nothing to make this talent viable at all in BFA. I honestly believe that Momentum had it’s time, but it needs to just be removed at this point if it isn’t going to be properly handled.

Nemesis: There’s no flavor behind this talent. It’s a long debuff on the GCD. I don’t find Nemesis fun at all. I really wish there could be another flavor talent here that adds to Demon Hunter instead of just a boring debuff talent.

  • I would STILL really love to see the return of Fury of the Illidari as a talent, I loved the glaives so much and they were always so enjoyable to use.

  • I’d also like to see some of the other Demon Hunter flavors return from Legion. Like the Crashing Demon from Chaos Strikes.

36 Likes

Took the words out of my mouth. The sad truth is that Vengeance Demon Hunter’s were bad most of BFA and only became good due to TD Corruption, Gluttony and VoP. With most of those going away, we will go back to being a paper tank that has a set in stone talent tree choice just to make the class somewhat playable. This is of course speaking without the use of Soulbinds and legendaries, but I strongly am against using those to prop up a spec that would be bad otherwise. Every class should feel good to play without the bells and whistles from that particular expansion, please return VDH to the drawing board.

26 Likes

In regards to Demonic, i would really love to see Furious Gaze be baked into Demonic, even more now they intend to by reducing duration.

  1. If they make it scale as a haste % buff it will still work later in the expac.
  2. it will resolve the issue of clipping eye beam.
  3. We will retain the trait that basically has been with us for an expac and a half which feels it really should be baseline
14 Likes

Going over Havoc DH, i would first like to just say that with the great unpruning of classes it is a shame that Demon Hunters are not getting abilities/traits back from their Artifact weapons. It would be great return to fluidity and form for us to also get abilities back.

Going over talents. Yet again it feels like with how unchanged the talent tree is we are going to only pick DA+Demonic and call it a day. With an expac and a half of just doing Demonic maybe we should embrace that fact and come up with talents that first compliment DA+Demonic being baseline and second, give us maybe a dot management like the old glaive throw talent from legion.

Here are some ideas on what we can do to spice things up for our talents:

-Make Demonic Appetite baseline and move Insatiable hunger to lvl 15 row, and to make a tad better add Anger of the half giant legendary effect to it, so that if we take Demon Blades it still benefits us!

-For lvl 25 add throw glaive adds a dot to that row so it gives us something new. Burning Hatred either needs to be added to immulation auro, or add Vengenace DH fallout trait to it to make it a bit more interesting.

-Level 30 row, throw fell mastery out, add Crashing Chaos from legion to that row and move Essence Break up for an interesting proper AOE focus row. I would love to have Fury of the Illidary replace Fel Barrage but i also wouldn’t mind that becoming a new legendary effect.

-35 is fine.

-40 row. Cycle of hatred should get changed to Fury spent instead of refund for a bit more control and consistency, also it makes it interesting and competative. By this point just make First blood baseline, trail of ruin comes here and i can’t think of a new talent but we should put something here to content with trail of ruin and cycle of hatred since essence break would be moved up to lvl 30 row.

-45 is still fine.

-And here we are at level 50, with demonic baseline lets get back Chaos Blades as a great alternative to these other talents and a 2 min CD which we are desperately missing, especially since Visions of Perfection essence is going away. First it works well with Demonic baseline and if we take Demon Blades, and even if we don’t we still have an option for a nice 2min CD.

To make a long post short, we should embrace Demonic Appetite + Demonic traits as baseline since we’ve pretty much chose them every time, and bring back Legion traits and abilities into our new talent tree to open up new possibilities and play-styles, the changes suggested above present us with real choice since we don’t have to worry about not having Demonic+Demonic Appetite.

31 Likes