Feedback: Death Knights

suggestion: the damage from firechains from Unholy Pact should increase the farther you stretch the beam with your pet.

1 Like

After having done some testing. Gargoyle damage is still low.

Its better. But its still really far behind Army of the Dead, which has a similar 3.5 min CD. In the tests Ive been doing, Army does a total of around 160-200k per use at level 60.

Gargoyle does 75-95k in 25 seconds.
Our Ghoul with Dark Transformation does 80-90k in 25 seconds.

Gargoyle is in a MUCH better spot. But it either needs to be 1.5% damage per 1 RP or its CD needs to be 2 mins.

Edit:
Also, Unholy Blight damage is like insanely low. For a talent in such an important position in the Unholy tree, it really needs to be spiced up. Its such an iconic ability but its not even beating Virulent Plague while its up due to Plaguebringer. Since Plaguebringer doesnt apply to Unholy Blight.

8 Likes

Sounds nice but unfortunately I doubt it’ll happen though considering monk has a talent to give leech to nearby party members now.

If im being honest, that does seem way lower than expected. Did you have the Valkyr appearance on? that one is bugged right now, lasting 35s, 2rp per 1% damage, and 60% less base damage.

No appearance used. And it was level 60, not 70. Since we don’t have easy access to level 70 atm. But I was doing the rotation as we are supposed to. Activating Dark Transformation after Gargoyle, with Commander of the Dead.

And the gear I used is the gear I have on my character right now. No iqd, no sigil and only had 1 rune of Scars active (haste).

1 Like

Hello Death Knights,

We want to share some of the upcoming changes we have planned for the Frost spec tree in the next Beta build. While we were generally happy with the Frost tree and what it had to offer, we also recognize that there were some improvements that could be made based on our learnings over Dragonflight’s Alpha development.

The existing Frost tree suffered a bit from a lack of choice once a player locked into a specific build (often choosing between Obliteration or BoS, then making 1 or 2 choices with what talent points remained). To help alleviate this issue, the upcoming tree has received new talents, reworked talents, existing talents moved to more accessible spaces, updated pathing connections, and lastly several selection node talents have been decoupled and moved elsewhere within the tree (most notably Icecap).

This is what it looks like:

Below, you can find the new and updated talents. This doesn’t cover all of the positional and pathing changes for talents, but it does highlight some of the more notable ones.

Unleashed Frenzy

  • Now grants the strength buff when any Runic Power ability damages an enemiy

Improved Frost Strike and Runic Command

  • Swapped positions on the tree

Glacial Advance

  • Removed the cooldown
  • Moved higher into the tree and is now unlocked after the 1st gate.

Frostscythe

  • Moved higher into the tree and is now unlocked after the 1st gate.

Horn of Winter

  • Now Frost only and placed directly after Improved Obliterate

Improved Killing Machine

  • Renamed to Frostreaper

Enduring Strength

  • Now available directly after Pillar of Frost
  • New Icon

Frostwhelp’s Aid

  • Now available directly after Pillar of Frost

Coldheart

  • No longer a choice node with Inexorable Assault
  • Moved to the right side of the tree below Improved Rime

Inexorable Assault

  • No longer a choice node with Cold Heart
  • Moved below Frostreaper on the left side of the tree

Icecap

  • No longer a choice node with Obliteration
  • Now available directly after Frostwhelp’s Aid or Enduring Strength

Empower Rune Weapon

  • Now properly grants +1 charge if you already know the spell from the core tree

Everfrost

  • Now directly available after Gathering Storm and should no longer be able to be taken without knowing Remorseless Winter
  • Reduced to a 1 max rank, down from 2.

New Talent – Shattering Strike

  • When Frost Strike damages an enemy with 5 stacks of Razorice it will consume them to deal an additional 60% damage.
  • Available directly after Icecap

Avalanche

  • This has been updated to also apply Razorice to your targets if Howling Blast is empowered by Rime.
  • No longer a choice node with Frozen Pulse
  • Now available directly after Icecap

Frozen Pulse

  • Cut
  • Developers’ notes: After reworking the tree and making room for the new talents we felt like Frozen Pulse didn’t offer anything unique to the Frost and rather than forcing it within the tree we decided it best to cut it for now to make room for what we hope are more interesting options.

New Talent - Icebreaker

  • When empowered by Rime, Howling Blast deals 30/60% increased damage to your primary target.
  • Available directly after Empowered Rune Weapon and Gathering Storm
22 Likes

Awesome changes here! though, i do have some questions if youd be willing to answer.

Will this require the razorice enchant to be applied to work? i know Glacial Advance used to work that way, and it would be a bit more ideal for it to stay that way, so that we arent stuck in a situation where some DK builds will go with a regular enchant on weapon (IE, Icecap/Obliteration using Sinful Revelation in Shadowlands)

And next question, Is obliteration still coupled with Pillar of Frost, or its own cooldown? Having Icecap and Obliteration is great and all, but, having these two multiply each other so intensely i dont feel is right for being able to tune these two independently of each other.

7 Likes

Huge step in a right direction. Although I was banking on Unleashed Frenzy to be replaced with Murderous Efficiency and placing Murderous Efficiency with Eradicating Blows, making Unleashed Frenzy not exclusive to Frost Strike works too.

Is this going to be final iteration of the Frost Tree? Because I’d like to make a few suggestions and see more changes.

4 Likes

If it isn’t a bug the new Animation for Defile being DND with really really Light Black lines in it is terrible and I have no idea why you would change it from it’s super clear oil slick animation.

Still issues with unholy talent tree, its still a mess. Its bloated, the middle of the tree makes no sense (magus/ruptured viscera should be removed or baked into something else, both very unnecessary talents), Unholy Pact is way too powerful to compete with defile, Infected Claws placement makes no sense it should be on the opposite side, further down and replacing something there like Pestilence or Pestilent Pustules that are insanely bad talents and All Will Serve or Sudden Doom should be moved in its place. Unholy Blight placement makes no sense without the pet component it should be further down the tree and massively buffed or have its CD reduced so its used to refresh our dots instead of using outbreak. Plaguebearer CD is waaaaaaay too long it needs to be cut by half to make it any useful and viable in dungeons or even add fights where its supposed to shine.

Unholy is still flooded with resources. To alleviate that, in the general death knight tree, empower rune weapon needs to be removed and something passive should be put in its place.
Unholy and blood suffer of way too many cooldowns and being flooded with resources. Empower rune weapon doesn’t really add anything and just makes for an extra button to press that gives you even more resources for two very resource flooded specs. Frost already has Empower rune weapon on its tree so removing it wouldn’t change anything for it.
Death Strike upgrade node feels bad, having to waste a talent point for a very situational ability for dps and a mandatory for blood feels terrible, Death strike should be good right from the bat.
Everything else in the general tree looks fantastic, good job.

7 Likes

Personally love the change to splitting Icecap from Obliteration, it will open up playstyles from BoS (still might not be as good but an option none the less).

With removing the cooldown of Glacial Advance and moving it further up the tree, is the intention to cast Glacial Advance in AoE settings over Frost Strike? And if it is can we look at integrating Glacial Advance into more things that also affect Frost Strike-


Cold-Blooded Rage

  • Frost Strike has a 10%/20% chance on critical strikes to grant Killing Machine (Second point doesn’t change tooltip but assuming 20%)

Icecap

  • Your Frost Strike, Frostscythe, and Obliterate critical strikes reduce the remaining cooldown of Pillar of Frost by 4 sec.

Improved Frost Strike

  • Increases Frost Strike damage by 10%/20% (rename talent)

New Talent - Shattering Strike

  • When Frost Strike damages an enemy with 5 stacks of Razorice it will consume them to deal an additional 60% damage

And thinking along those same lines, Frostscythe is a pseudo replacement for Obliterate in an AoE setting, can we look at integrating Frostscythe into more things that also affect Obliteration that don’t already-

Might of the Frozen Wastes

  • Wielding a two-handed weapon increases Obliterate damage by 30%, and your auto attack critical strikes always grant Killing Machine

Improved Obliterate

  • Increases Obliterate damage by 10%/20% (rename talent)

Frigid Executioner

  • Obliterate deals 10% increased damage, and has a 12% chance to refund 2 runes.

Rage of the Frozen Champion

  • Obliterate has a 15% increased chance to trigger Rime on Howling Blast generates 8 Runic Power while Rime is active.

*Edited to remove Killing Machine, Bonegrinder, Murderous Efficiency from Frostscythe integration as Frostscythe reads as “This attack benefits from Killing Machine”.
*Edited to remove Improved Killing Machine from Frostscythe integration as Frostscythe already does Frost damage.
*Edited to add talent descriptions and make more abilities clearer/defined to read

13 Likes

I really do love Magus of the Dead…but it feels redundant with Gargoyle. Why not simply remove Magus and bake that into Gargoyle?

Gargoyle is so much more interesting of a cooldown. Its honestly the most interesting cooldown Unholy has. Id much rather Gargoyle be leaned into than something purely passive like Magus. We have plenty of passive pets.

And yea the Unholy tree continues to have too many talents in the middle section of the tree. Its just SO bloated in the middle.

None of those deserve to be standalone talents. Is there any possibility some of them could be combined?

Combine Replenishing Wounds and Feasting Strikes.
Combine Pestilent Pustules and Pestilence.
Combine Sudden Doom, Runic Mastery and Harbinger of Doom.

I know combining Sudden Doom, Runic Mastery and Harbinger of Doom seems like a lot…but Runic Mastery and Harbinger of Doom are weak. Like REALLY REALLY weak. Runic Mastery being 2 talent points and adding nothing but extra space for RP is…a bit much, to put it politely.

Right now the main Unholy issues are:

-Gargoyle and Magus are redundant. And Gargoyle is still weak.
-Guardian pets arent being affected by Morbidity.
-Plaguebearers CD is still too long.
-We have too much talent bloat and too many talents not worthy of being a talent.

That list is way shorter than it was last week. Just a bit more touch up and itll be damn near perfect.

9 Likes

Agreed. Both soul reaper and ERW should be replaced in the DK general tree. While they can get SOME use they both feel pretty mediocre for their non main specs (Soul Reaper for Blood/Frost and ERW for Blood/Unholy).

I think as a whole Frostwyrm’s Fury (+ Absolute Zero), Superstrain, Army of the Dead (This even used to be DK wide anyways), Chill Streak, and Defile are all way better talents to consider putting in the end cap section.

10 Likes

Agreed. Both soul reaper and ERW should be replaced in the DK general tree. While they can get SOME use they both feel pretty mediocre for their non main specs (Soul Reaper for Blood/Frost and ERW for Blood/Unholy).

For what it is worth, Blood would currently use all three capstone talents in the general class talent tree in their current form depending on what content you are doing.

Empower Rune Weapon is a strong mitigation increase with its haste and extra resource regeneration, while also providing some damage.

Abomination limb is a respectable (but not overwhelming) damage increase at all target counts along with the obvious grip benefits.

Soul Reaper is one of the strongest single target damage talents Blood has access to, though it does weaken our RP throughput to some extent while using it over Heart Strike. Still, the damage gains are large enough reletive to the mitigation loss that you wouldn’t be too concerned with the tradeoff unless you were facing imminent death.

That being said, it would be ideal if all three capstone would be reasonable options for all three specs. At the very least, reliable sources tell me that isn’t the case with Soul Reaper and Frost.

4 Likes

Can’t wait to test the new frost changes next week! Have you considered trying out something that increases crit damage for killing machine based on crit chance? I feel like guaranteed crits on a crit-stacking spec could feel better with something like that. Havoc demon hunter got a talent like this and i’m kinda jealous!

As for the class tree I think that gorefiends grasp might be better than abomination limb. Utility tied to dps can lead to situations where you want to press the button on cooldown to max out your dps, but then you’ll miss the part of the fight where you needed a mass grip. Or if you save it for that, it feels bad that you did less damage. Replacing rune mastery with gorefiends grasp as a 2 point node (with second point reducing cooldown) and abomination limb with purgatory would bring back two fun, useful and iconic abilities that were shared between specs.

I haven’t really PVE’d as unholy, but now that i’ve played around with soul reaper on frost, it doesn’t feel very impactful. I think increasing rune cost to 2 or make it an rp spender and increasing damage to match for frost might make it feel better to use. Also i’m not a fan of the delayed damage in general, I think a standard execute that does high damage to a low health enemy instantly could potentially be more enjoyable to use, especially in PvP situations.

My only other complaint is that the nodes that increase leech, avoidance, crit and strength are slightly boring. I noticed that the stat increasing nodes on warrior have nice little secondary bonuses to them, which could make these nodes more appealing, especially since they are gates to lower parts of the tree. (for example if you want to cross over to the unholy side from the blood part without taking ghoul)

14 Likes

Got beta recently and thought I’d transfer my updated thoughts over here! Wonderful job so far on the unholy tree! Some genuinely amazing changes (gargoyle giving RP, death rot on epidemic * chefs kiss *). Just a few pain points here and there. Time to nitpick!

Unholy Tree Feedback

As a mostly rated pvp player, having to pick up army of the dead (unusable) to pick up army of the damned (super good for burst windows) feels awful. Those points below the 20 point barrier are precious, essentially being restricted to 9 is rough. I’ve seen recently that Lay on Hands was enabled with a modifier * wink *.

Unholy Blight got even weaker recently with the morbidity nerf, it feels like a throwaway button now that it only contributes a temporary 2% damage increase. It’s even worse considering how easy it is to accidentally pick up Unholy Blight without morbidity, since it’s bottlenecking 6 other unrelated talents behind it. It would make sense to me for Infected Claws and Unholy Blight to swap positions, seeing as the left side has far more wound synergy, and the right side has you picking up Plaguebringer, and eventually leads into Morbidity later on. Unholy blight just needs something else, some sort of utility or amp to make it feel good.

Runic mastery having no connection to Plaguebringer/Clawing Shadows feels odd and restricting considering Festering Strike connects to Feasting Strike on the opposite side. This leads to you having to spend an extra point on Infected Claws if you want to progress the right side if you’ve picked up Runic Mastery.

This is a thing on live right now, but has never been a problem due to lack of usage, but Ebon Fever only affecting Virulent Plague and not the other Superstrain dots leads to some unsatisfying early refreshing. Would love to see this incorporate the extra dots, but be tuned down a bit as to not be too strong.

Plaguebringer and Clawing Shadows being a choice node feels like an odd choice, they’re throughput vs mostly utility that are neither mutually exclusive nor too strong together. Spending the extra point to get both would feel very nice however for boss downtime/dot rotting uptime in pvp, I would love to see these separated.

Plaguebringer also has some strange incentives, it feels like the best first global after applying diseases to a lot of targets is a SS with no wounds. Maybe make this also apply with Outbreak? Since it applies with SS, I can’t see this having any degenerate gameplay implications outside of Outbreaking while out of range every 4 seconds.

Pestilence and Harbinger of Doom are notoriously weak talents that are having an even tougher time in their current placements next to the two SUPER strong talents Plaguebearer and Reaping. Seeing as they’re next to each other you’ll likely only take one to progress farther into the tree, and the choice is obvious.

The recent changes to cooldown syncing are genuinely amazing, but Abomination Limb and Empower Rune Weapon remain desynced from the rest of Unholy’s kit.

Unholy Assault’s post-SL iteration lost a lot of utility that Pre-SL’s Unholy Frenzy had. Pairing this with Apocalypse usually lands you with way too many resources, seeing as you’ve spend no runes on generating wounds, then generated 2 more runes from Apoc. Unholy Frenzy had the benefit of dolling out those resources slow enough to be able to use at any wound amount, while not disrupting resource flow, not to mention all the new auto attack synergies (Ghoulish Frenzy/Icy Talons) would bring satisfying power to this version. That being said, the current iteration synergizes really well with Plaguebearer, given that you want a lot of excess runes to pop all those wounds. It might still be hard to pick this talent up given the competition.

I miss using Defile, and seeing it measured against Unholy Pact again breaks my heart. It needs something more to make it worthwhile because the lower CD isn’t cutting it. The mastery amp from the Legion version would do nicely. Also, a longer duration would be far more welcome than the lower CD, given how restrictive D&D windows can be. Since we have access to 2 charges now, the lower CD feels a bit outshined.

Wound based AoE is one the most satisfying things in this entire game, but a build focused around it becomes pathetically weak outside of cooldowns. A way to rotationally apply a small amount of wounds in AoE would be greatly welcomed. Pestilence does this extremely underwhelmingly, but could be buffed up to fill this niche, perhaps with a less passive role.

Class Tree Feedback

We recently got a new connection from Might of Thassarian to Death Pact, which would be a nice way to skip into the blood path if Death Pact weren’t a weak and unenjoyable button to press.

Blood Scent and Suppression are in such interesting spots, allowing you to skip into the Frost/Unholy sides, but man they’re so boring and underwhelming. Please reconsider these altogether.

Having to pick up an AoE talent (Cleaving Strikes) for ST throughput (Brittle) and another AoE talent (Unholy Ground) for Grip/mobility utility (Death’s Echo) still feels awful. If I got even slight utility out of these talents outside of AoE it would be bearable but they are complete dead weight. These two make the unholy tree really expensive to progress down, which is a shame because they’re some genuinely fun talents in that path.

Thanks for reading this ESSAY of a post. I look forward to giving feedback for future changes!

14 Likes

Same can be said for 90% of specs out there with their talents. Irrelevant.

Just wanted to pop in and say real quick, Gargoyle tuning is still missing the mark. Did several tests with a macro’d opener to ensure i didnt make any play mistakes doing it. And well… here’s the best result i got.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cbF4PTJhAgkRZ1tx#fight=3&type=damage-done&source=2&options=256

It even got a lucky crit on the 2nd to last hit, which, should be where garg really shines. But, alas, its just not quite up to the task yet.

7 Likes

Considering the history of Gargoyle…this isnt really a surprise. Despite being one of Unholy’s earliest and 2nd most iconic CDs (after Army of the Dead), it has always had a difficult history. I dont believe it was even given Mastery scaling (which was shadow damage back then) until Mists of Pandaria.

Just did a quick google search. It wasnt until the Isle of Thunder patch, patch 5.2, that it finally received Mastery scaling. Mastery was introduced in Cataclysm, which was December 2010. That means it tooks 3+ years to FINALLY get Mastery scaling for Gargoyle. Patch 5.2 was released March 2013.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_4.0.1 (Mastery introduced)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_5.2.0

And yes, players were asking for Mastery scaling for Gargoyle for those entire 3 years. Unfortunately Gargoyle, for whatever reason, has always had to struggle to be the cooldown it deserves to be.

It was FINALLY allowed to be good in Legion. And it shined. And then it was literally Hulk Hogan body-slammed triple nerfed after Legion. And its been in its sad state ever since.

Attack power scaling was nerfed from 30% to 15%
RP scaling was nerfed from 1rp/1% to 2rp/1%
The cooldown was increased from 2 minutes to 3 minutes

Apologies for the history lesson, but I think it showcases how frustrating Gargoyle has been for players outside of 1 expansion. And when you look at those post Legion nerfs…its no wonder its been absolutely terrible up until recently.

We really do appreciate all the attention it has been getting. And the reason for the history lesson is to show just how much it was nerfed after Legion. And to hopefully justify why we keep saying “its better, but its not enough.”

A 3 minute cooldown should be REALLY impactful. And it just isnt up to that standard yet.

11 Likes

They should just reduce it to 20 secs triple its damage and make it a fire and forget ability like it used to be. Forget the shenanigans with runic power just make it alright and not a dps loss and its solved. Not everything must interact with something.

5 Likes