FEEDBACK: Death Knight Class Changes

Neither Shackle the Unworthy or Abomination’s Limb cost a rune. TECHNICALLY speaking Death’s Due costs 1 rune because DnD/Defile cost 1 rune. Swarming Mist costs 1 rune because its a separate ability.

However Swarming Mist generates 24 RP on a single target. Which more than pays for the 1 rune cost.

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Thanks for clearing that up, I’m definitely glad it doesn’t cost something.

Blood DKs synergy with Deaths Due is quite strong as it is now, however if it gets nerfed the spec definitely needs compensation elsewhere.

Still nothing about the GCD bloat issue for Unholy or lack of interesting choices for talent builds/legendaries. Or fixing 2h vs dualwield Frost.

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I should clarify that the issue isn’t that we can’t equip them, it’s that obliterate has a restriction on it to prevent it from working with polearms for frost DKs.

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Okay I saw that.

Seems weird indeed that they wouldn’t allow polearms for frost dks basicly, when both other specs are fine with them.

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I’m really happy to see the latest update addressing so many of the class issues. Soul Reaper is back as a non-conventional execute, I did NOT see that coming back. Thank you. Number wise, that just comes down to tuning down the line. I think at this point the only thing I have any concern about is our lack of interesting talent/legendary choices but I get that those need a lot more time and discussion.

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In the latest Beta build, Unholy and Frost have received a few updates to address some common concerns.

Frost

  • Might of the Frozen Wastes

    • Rank 1: While Dual-Wielding your Obliterate and Frost Strike will also strike with your off hand and you can engrave each weapon with a Runeforge Enchant
    • Rank 2: Increases your Obliterate damage by 25% and Killing Machine Proc chance when using a two-hand
  • Runic Attenuation

    • The proc rate has been adjusted to bring Dual Wield and Two-Handed closer together and the Runic Power gain has been increased to 5 from 3.

Developers’ notes: Our goal here is to bridge the gap of the proc discrepancy between DW and 2H, as well as giving 2-Handed Frost its own passive ability to make up the difference of not having two runeforge enchants.

Unholy

  • Soul Reaper

    • Has been reworked and once again has execute functionality.
    • 1 Rune, 8 second Cooldown
      • Strike an enemy for Shadow damage and afflict the enemy with Soul Reaper. After 5 seconds, if the target is below 35% health this effect will explode dealing additional Shadow damage to the target. If an enemy dies while afflicted gain Runic Corruption.
  • Unholy Frenzy

    • Reworked and renamed Unholy Strike.
    • Strike your target with an unholy blow dealing Shadow damage, infecting the target with 4 Festering Wounds, and sending you into a killing frenzy, increasing haste by 15% for 12 seconds.
  • Army of the Dead

    • Rune cost reduced to 1 (was 3).

Developers’ notes: These Unholy changes are targeted at helping reduce the start sequence time when paired with specific talents. We hope this will help the overall flow of the spec, without altering too heavily how the spec plays. An additional update (coming soon, that didn’t make it into this build) will also have the Ardenweald ability Death’s Due work with Defile functionality.

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Unholy Strike is just such a massive GCD weight lifted off our opener that the other 2 choices are a bit overshadowed. Now speaking from a purely cosmetic/opinion standpoint, I’m really gonna miss Magus of the Dead, the spooky caster magus boys really did feel thematically and visually good. Maybe they can be added in elsewhere still?

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Quick feedback for me
I’m not sure Soul reaper as an execute makes sense to be on the same row as others talent that are more targeted at being rune generators.

The army rune reduction is welcome, but isn’t game changer since it’s such a big cd.

I would have liked to see more gcd changes. This seems for me the biggest issue unholy is facing.

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I’ll swing back around here after some more time with changes but I am confused at the timings here.

Soul Reaper timing issue:

Mists/Warlords Execute Soul Reaper had perfect timings with 6 second cooldown and 5 second detonation delay.

This allowed some intuitive usage between detonating and instantly reapplying the next GCD, and allowed you to think about pooling the rune cost during execute.

Adding extra seconds to the cooldown somewhat breaks this intuitive loop, giving a jarring delay between each detonation and reapplication.

Talent Slot issue:
I love the return of Soul Reaper Execute, but its position as a extremely high DPS button, on a talent row full of Resource Gain Talents, will cement its pick as the only talent for another 2 years.
This is the same reasons why Hammer of Wrath and Shadow Word: Death are now baseline.
Executes shouldn’t be talents.

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Am I missing something or isn’t that already baked into the Army of the Damned talent?

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Sorry let me clarify. I know it’s part of the other talent, I meant that with how good Unholy Strike is that it doesn’t seem likely to take any of the other 2 choices on that row, which means no Magus for the forseeable future barring serious tuning.

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I agree with Kalrell

Executes shouldn’t be talents

and that its on a row with resource generation talents makes it as Kalrell also noted, means its going to be cemented as “must pick” (unless some tuning happens)

And as Finesthour said maybe give Apocalypse a rank 2 that gives Magus of the Dead as baseline and make Army of the Damned do something else that’s cool

cus Magus of the Dead is cool thing to see and not having it unless you pick a talent feels bad(on a coolness factor) after having it for so long in BFA

Magus hits that DK fantasy really well too cus when your playing WC3 and you start raising skeletons and skeletal mages that’s a cool thing and that’s what Magus of the Dead really hits on

idk what you guys would change Army of the Damned to do

I like Might of the Frozen Wastes, I was worried we wouldn’t see any thing for 2H Frost :+1: :grinning:

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2h Frost is back on the menu boys! Blizz with the late save!

looks like I will be playing shadowlands after all

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Wow! So there’s an awful lot to unpack here, and I kinda like the idea behind most of this.

I’m extremely concerned here; history has been known to repeat itself, and that has always been the case for 2H Frost. Isn’t dumping an enormous amount of damage into Obliterate something that will, long-term, result in the same massive scaling issues that have always plagued 2H Frost?

Obliterate doesn’t exactly scale with anything except for Versatility (and Haste, I guess) and dumping this much damage into an ability that is notorious for scaling very poorly with our secondary stats sounds like a recipe for disaster, just as it’s been for many expansions now.

EDIT: I forgot about factoring KM Rank 2 into the equation here. That’s also pretty nice, but I still feel somewhat concerned that this just turns the 2H Frost playstyle into a glorified Obliterate bot. I’m bolding this but keeping the original part here to effectively hold my L for forgetting about KM Rank 2.

Neat! While the existing iteration of Soul Reaper is also incredibly powerful, I found the MoP and Warlords-style DoT-Execute hybrid to be quite engaging to play around with. I would really like to see this take on Soul Reaper get reduced to a 6 second cooldown to be more in-line with the older iteration of Soul Reaper, though.

Normally I’d take a large amount of issue with the fact that we’re losing a lot of on-demand resources thanks to us losing out on the current iteration of Soul Reaper, I feel like some of the other changes listed here noticeably help out in this regard.

That said, I see an issue with this being a talent in its current state; it doesn’t really offer actual rune generation which makes the Execute-style Soul Reaper feel extremely out of place on this row now. Please just make this baseline and add something else focused on resource generation in that talent row.

Gameplay-wise this has a great deal of potential. This doesn’t magically fix this spec’s numerous GCD-related issues (please just take DT off the GCD and get it over and done with), but it’s a pretty nice start. It reminds me of the likes of of the new Rune of Power compromise you’ve recently added in a sense.

However, Unholy Strike feels like it’ll be overwhelmingly better than anything else in that talent row considering how much it accelerates our rotation given this iteration, and this issue is massive considering what you’ve done to make that row more of a choice worth thinking about.

I hate asking for extra baseline abilities all the time, but this is something that seems so considerably stronger than Armies of the Damned or Unholy Pact in the vast majority of situations that I don’t see any other feasible solution.

That’s nice to an extent. Reduce its cooldown, please.

Looking forward to this, but I can’t help but feel as though it’ll inevitably fall into a bit of an awkward position regardless:

If this change is powerful, it doubles down on Night Fae offering an incredibly powerful Covenant ability and removes an AoE Runic Power spender from our rotation which is a massive QoL hit in and of itself. At least it’ll be a DPS increase for single-target no matter what, I guess… That entire row is an absolute catastrophe for any single-target situations.

If this change isn’t powerful, it remains perpetually eclipsed by the incredible Epidemic anyway.

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Great to see some updates for Frost and Unholy and that the devs do see the issues with the Unholy opener and 2h vs DW.

I really like that Soul Reaper is once again an execute, I always liked the MoP version of it because it actually works differently then any other execute in the game. Since it only gives resource generation when it fails to go off on a target I think its now in a weird spot.

Ideally I’d recommend just making the ability baseline and putting a different resource talent in but perhaps Soul Reaper can be further changed to still be an execute but instead of doing damage after expiration maybe it can reward runes and if the target dies before expiration it can give Runic Power instead of Runic Corruption. Obviously adjust the cooldown as well to compensate and adjust the execute threshold as needed. It could even be changed to generates Runes above 35% and Runic Power below 35% upon expiration or vice versa. Just something to eliminate the damage portion of this ability on the current row but still using the execute threshold for something interesting.

This way we have some control over which resource we would like depending on the situation and it makes Soul Reaper more in line with the talent row by offering resource generation as its primary use instead of damage.

For Unholy Strike I like that this does reduce the globals required on the opener but I’ve always the final talent row was already a bit of a mixed bag.

Army of the Damned, thematically, is a great talent and I don’t like being in a situation where I can’t have my Magus of the Dead, thematically, it works so well with the spec. Unholy Pact I’ve always had an issue with, I don’t think it fits in this row.

With this change Unholy Strike looks pretty much mandatory. Maybe instead of making, arguably the strongest talent on this row for the last 2-4 years, even stronger, we remove the wound requirement from Apocalypse and just have it summon 4 ghouls and leave Unholy Frenzy alone.

I’d also like if some aspect of Army of the Damned could be made baseline as this talent , again thematically, is amazing and makes me feel like a Diablo 2 Necromancer with an army of undead. Ideally I’d make this talent baseline but adjust it so it no longer reduces Army/Apoc cooldowns, but instead just makes army 5minutes and allows it and Apoc to summon Magus of the Dead.

I’d also argue Epidemic is also in the same category as Unholy Frenzy in that the other talents have almost never been taken over it in the last 2-4 years. I think Epidemic should also be made baseline, Unholy Pact should move into its spot (but remove the Strength bonus) and the last talent row should receive two new talents.

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Awesome, it hit all the major points of concern for 2H Frost! It’ll make a lot of people happy for sure. Also, kinda confused about Rank 1 of Might, couldn’t you always engrave a runeforge on each weapon for Dual Wield? Same with Frost Strike and Obliterate, unless that was changed in a build? Seems redundant to state something obvious, unless I totally missed it.

Might of the Frozen Wastes looks fantastic though! Hopefully it makes up for the lack of Razorice, but having KM and Runic Attenuation adjusted is a huge boost for 2H.

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It is nice to see DK get some changes. I have not been able to log into the beta yet due to server issues so I am going to put my thoughts down.

Frost:
So the MotFW change does buff 2h so that it may not be drastically behind dw frost. There is no indication in the tooltip whatsoever how killing machine works with 2h frost, so it will take a lot of player-gathered data to try and figure out. I still wish we would have seen a “You can now add a second runeforge onto your 2 handed weapon” passive, rather than what we got, because this is just going to repeat history in that one will always be better than the other, and if dw is better then frost has no easy way to target weapons for themselves.

Unholy:
Initially the changes look interesting. Army only costing 1 rune (and assuming only generating 10rp?) means that your resources are more in check. Unholy strike basically sounds like you want to give us a non-rng way to let us use apocalypse the next global, which is fine but it does not solve our gcd issues. Soul reaper as an execute is something that is nice to have back, but as a talent it seems like it will just dominate the row in any raid encounter unless it is tuned to deal very little damage. Overall I do not think this reduces the opening sequence whatsoever, other than maybe reducing the globals used on festering strike, which is largely irrelevant since you are still spending 10-11 globals of getting cds out at the start of the fight. The way the abilities work is not what need changing, the amount of globals we use still needs to change, and not in the form of removing abilities. Take things off the gcd, please. We all beg you.

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Have a couple of ideas for frost. The 2h frost addition is nice, but I have an issue with something else, aoe runic power spending. While there is an option in Glacial Advance, it’s just not worth taking over Gathering Storms because: 1. the damage on remorseless winter is good 2. Pressing 1 GCD for remorseless winter >>>>>>> more GCDs for glacial advance.

What would be a good fix, would be is to make DnD/Death’s Due do Shadowfrost damage so it’s worth using in all 3 specs. As well as having Dnd/Death’s Due operate the same way for frost as it does for blood/unholy, and make frost strike hit 4 additional targets for 50% (or however much % would be applicable) while in DnD/Death’s Due. While this wouldn’t completely solve the issue, it’s would definitely be a big step in the right direction.

The way it is now, you really only use runic power in aoe just to get more runes for Frostscythe/Obliterate as needed. Other than that its pretty much ignored.

Another change that could be made is to make Froscythe/Glacial advance baseline so that there are aoe spenders for both runic power and Runes. That adds a lot more and seems more complicated but it’s an idea.

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These changes are cool but confusing. Soul Reaper being an execute on a talent row made for resources? I dont see the logic. If Soul Reaper was going baseline then sure. But why randomly give us an execute on a resource tier?

All that does is introduce choices that feel bad. Players, here and there, have been asking for execute Soul Reaper for a few expansions. What if Soul Reaper is tuned extremely poorly and those players STILL cant play with an execute because the other options are better? What about players that hate executes? What if Soul Reaper is, for another 2 years, the best talent on that row and theyre forced into the execute playstyle?

These are not good choices that are being created. And they dont solve our GCD issues nearly enough at all.

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I am SUPER stoked about the passive coming for two-handers. I’m hoping that this gives them ample amounts of punch with obliterate so, as I said in one of my previous posts, they are the abominable juggernauts they should be. LICH KING SPEC BOIS

I think that Tzodk mentioned a good point about Runeforging, and how the balance can teeter because of it. I think we had a small disagreement awhile back, in that I believed (and still do) that a small damage difference would be okay, so long as two-hander frost still had the burst to back itself up. However, I do agree very much with Tzodk and am a little fearful about the power-scaling with having another Runeforge for Dual-wielding, and whether or not it will throw Dual-wielding miles ahead. I hope that’s not the case, but it’s my tentative worry. Then again, Frost Dks have never really been the hall-mark example of scaling especially with secondary stats from the get-go, but we’ll see. :stuck_out_tongue:

My biggest hope moving forward is that the two-hander passive has THAT much scaling power to where it’s competitive with the +1 Runeforge that dual-wielding gets. Even if it’s slightly behind, I hope that it just doesn’t get majorly out-shined. The dual-wielding passive already seems quite strong, so I’m not sure if the two-hander passive is enough to make it yet. Fingers crossed though, and I will playtest the HELL out of it lol! :smiley:

Edit: I also wanted to add, I think the logic here is sound. Developers’ notes: Our goal here is to bridge the gap of the proc discrepancy between DW and 2H, as well as giving 2-Handed Frost its own passive ability to make up the difference of not having two runeforge enchants.

If you look, the passive for 2-H specifically buffs Obliterate, which is a massive encouragement to spam the crap out of this heavy-hitting move. As Lich King spec shouldbe. VERY happy about that.

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