[Feedback - Build 45480] Hunter Class Talents + Beast Mastery

I think 4 points for multi shot/beast cleave is a bit too much, you dont take multi shot without beast cleave and you have to fill out beast cleave to get kill cleave, which is one of the genuine fantastic new ideas(that the forums have been suggesting for years)

But this means that baseline aoe damage is a 5 pt investment, with one of those 5 points being absolutely awful. if it was 1 - 1 - 1 it would be more reasonable, adding 2 seconds of beast cleave to kill cleave would sort out the inherent focus/time constraint that kill cleave adds to the now shorter aoe cycle.

To be fair if they fold in 2 charges baseline and hit a bunch of those 2 pointers that should be one pointers and bring us in line with the 12-15 point spread before the first barrier that all other classes have it will also give us an easier time getting down to the rest of the tree, where some actual interesting choices feel locked behind a heavy point investment.

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Hmm? It isn’t.

You can go down to Chakrams from Keen Eyesight.

Agreed. I still hope that they’ll do more before launch, but it’s getting better.

Some things ofc depend on how you look at it. I’ve updated the OP to reflect my thoughts on the talent trees as they are now, in phase 3 of the alpha.

Yep, agreed. I updated the OP with my current thoughts. Now that the trees have been iterated on over a few weeks.

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You don’t need to put anything there. Leave it blank like the left side is in that position.

I think it’s fine to leave the 2nd charge as a talents as long as it isn’t the only thing you get for the point. If you get the 2nd charge and Bloodletting CD reduction it becomes more powerful for the point spent than either on their own. I can see an issue late xpac where you have enough haste to where the CD reduction is meaningless and you feel forced to take it still because of the 2nd charge though. But as long as BW CD reduction exists that really isn’t an issue.

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It was an example aimed at my comment as to why Miss-direction should include pet Damage.

Looking at the hunter tree we will most likely pass on pet survivability nodes like Thick hide and Improved Mend pet in Raid and M+ scenario enabling us to get throughput nodes.
Mobs fixating on pets will translate to them getting wrecked if the mob threat fails to transfer to Tank. Even on live I have had my Clefthoof drop like a rock on a few occasions when it grabbed threat and die on the return run to the tank.

Yeah Rework to baseline cosmetic and replace. Not sure on Sharp Barbs as it will depend on the way BS is tuned and works in DF
You are correct in the problem with no Node to increase Beast Cleave duration Id take that over AC any day.

Agreed I would like the same treatment 1.5-3% to Crit on TotH as well.

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Well, then there would be no path going down from where you intend for Training Expert to be. You’d lose a path to Dire Beast. Not the biggest deal ofc. But, yeah…

I would disagree with this. Unless you have that baseline, and unless you talent into Wild Call as well, you will basically never be able to reach 3 stacks of Frenzy on your pet. Not to mention how much lower your uptime of Bestial Wrath would be.

Add that second charge back as a default element of Barbed Shot itself, and then do something like this:

…that would be the way to go, IMO. They can include the added Barbed Shot damage as well ofc. They could also go the other way and add the old perk that increased the duration of Frenzy by 1 sec, instead of the lowered cooldown.

Ah, okay. Well, your pet overtaking threat from a tank is usually never an issue, in my experience. Only in cases where your pet keeps hitting the mob, but the tank hasn’t done so yet, or is no longer doing so.

:+1:

Unless they buff it/increase the bonus damage it provides, it will not be worth it, ever.

I’d prefer if they put that node below Beast Cleave itself, or better yet, just reduce the amount of points required for Beast Cleave to 2, with the same total damage, but make each point then add 4 sec to the duration of Beast Cleave.

Considering how many points we will want to take in the first bracket/top section, I agree. Right now, we probably want to take between 13-17 points up there, depending on ST or AoE, and tuning ofc.

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Well, some announcements coming our way on a friday.

#Feedback: Hunters - #117 by Nimox-11491

Hello again, Hunters.

We wanted to discuss some adjustments coming to your talents in a future build, and briefly mention a few thoughts.

Class Tree
The current design intentionally has almost all utility above the second gate, which means you have 11 points that will almost certainly be spent only on throughput choices in PvE situations. We like having a bunch of abilities located past the second gate that were previously locked to individual specs. This has also created a situation where there’s a lot of bloat of extra abilities and cooldowns that feel mandatory because they are available and likely worth pressing. The last 3 rows of the tree have been shuffled around a bit and will continue to be adjusted to try to prevent most hunters from feeling obligated to acquire multiple extra active buttons.

  • Barrage and Explosive Shot are now a choice node.
  • Stampede now replaces Chakram in the choice node vs Death Chakram.
    • Chakram has been removed from the talent tree.
  • Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus has been lowered to 2 points.

Beast Mastery

  • Bloodshed and Murder of Crows is now a choice node, and is where Dire Beast previously was.
  • Dire Beast has been moved to where Murder of Crows was.
  • New Talent - Bloody Frenzy - Barbed Shot has a chance to apply a second stack of Frenzy to your pets. This is located in the second gate area.
  • Beast Cleave has been lowered to 2 points, and Beast Cleave’s duration is now 3/6 seconds depending on your rank.

Marksmanship
While Rapid Fire is not a required ability, we’re trying to integrate it to the tree where it would make sense. Marksmanship has very limited passive Focus generation, and Rapid Fire should ideally help with that. We want to avoid situations where you drop Steady Shot entirely while doing prolonged combat.

  • Deathblow has been made a 1-point node. Rapid Fire casts (not damage events) can now also activate this. The chance for activation is different for Aimed Shot vs Rapid Fire.
  • Razor Fragments now also works with Deathblow procs, rather than being tied solely to Trick Shots.
  • Bombardment’s design has changed - Every 6/4 (2-rank node) Arcane or Chimaera Shots causes your next Multi-Shot to grant you Trick Shots, regardless of how many targets it hits.
    • This will likely be changed to a 1-point node, or adjusted to also boost Multi-Shot damage per rank. The location of this also needs to be adjusted as you can currently select this without Multi-Shot.
  • Lone Wolf’s spot in the tree has been moved to above the first gate.
  • More things connect to Lock and Load’s talent node.
  • Some redundant node connections have been removed.
  • Legacy of the Windrunners and Serpentstalker’s Trickery node locations have been swapped.
  • Unerring Vision’s design has slightly changed to also increase critical damage while Trueshot is active.

Survival
Spearhead and Coordinated Assault are competing for some space in the tree. We’re hoping to identify a set of abilities to that each augments in a way that feels good, and also would prefer a design that doesn’t encourage you to stack both of them at the same time. Some adjustments are being made to these abilities to try to focus on different parts of your ability sets in a manner that lets both Coordinated Assault and Spearhead hopefully feel both distinct from each other, while still feeling powerful on their own.

  • Mongoose Bite should actually replace Raptor Strike now.
  • Predator returned to 25%, rather than 8%. This was a data error when changing from a 3 point node to a 1 point node.
  • A connection between Lunge and Frenzy Strikes has been removed to prevent a dependency problem.
  • Deadly Duo renamed Quick Shot, and redesigned. When Kill Command’s cooldown is reset, you fire a free Arcane Shot at your target.
  • Coordinated Assault is back to 2 minutes.
  • Coordinated Assault no longer modifies Carve. Instead, your pet’s special attack increases the initial damage of your next Wildfire Bomb.
    • Birds of Prey will likely be adjusted in a future build to more directly work with the design tweaks of Coordinated Assault.
  • Bonded Companion renamed Deadly Duo, and redesigned. While Coordinated Assault is active, Wildfire Bomb’s cooldown is reduced by 25/50%, Wildfire Bombs generate 5/10 Focus when thrown, and Kill Shot can be used on any target regardless of the target’s HP.
  • Coordinated Kill redesigned, and is now 2 points. While Spearhead is active, Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite Focus Cost is reduced by 5/10, and Kill Command resets increase the duration of Spearhead by 1/2 sec.

Some good announcements for sure. Always nice to get more information about changes and their reasoning around it. Sounds like overall good changes, especially for Survival whos last rows are just a mess at the moment.

In my last thread I lifted my issues and there is a whole bunch about them that is not addressed but some of them at least are.

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I really like how responsive the devs are right now. It’s a huge turnaround from 9.2 when they ignored all feedback until like 3 days after the patch hit, gave us the hilariously bad beast cleave time extension, and then whacked us with the 3/4% aura buff a couple times until we stopped making so many horrible noises like me trying to repair my dying electronics.

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Yep, agreed.

Keep at the discussions. Hopefully more is being considered.


Looking at these changes(class + beast mastery)…

  • Barrage and Explosive Shot are now a choice node.
  • Stampede now replaces Chakram in the choice node vs Death Chakram.
    • Chakram has been removed from the talent tree.
  • Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus has been lowered to 2 points.

Generally good changes. Although, while it allows MM to spend more points on utility, I’d say there are still some things that are missing.

IMO, Wailing Arrow added(moved here from the spec trees) for the utility perk of the silence. If necessary, add it to the bottom bracket to include some damage as well.

Aspect of the Fox, with a longer shared CD to avoid class stacking.

Choice node, pick one of the following talents

[Rejuvenating Wind] - Exhilaration heals you for an additional 20% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

While you’re under the effect of Rejuvenating Wind you also take 20% less damage.

[Deterrence] - Instant - 10 sec duration - 2.5 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 sec.

Beast Mastery

  • Bloodshed and Murder of Crows is now a choice node, and is where Dire Beast previously was.

Okay, sounds good enough.

  • Dire Beast has been moved to where Murder of Crows was.

Interesting. Fits with the theme of the bottom left capstone branch.

  • New Talent - Bloody Frenzy - Barbed Shot has a chance to apply a second stack of Frenzy to your pets. This is located in the second gate area.

Hmm, wondering what will happen to the bottom right choice node. As there’s a talent there that’s called Bloody Frenzy as well. As for this talent in itself, not convinced that it’s a good enough addition. It helps you to obtain stacks of Frenzy if you’re not picking Wild Call ofc. But still doubt how useful it will be.

  • Beast Cleave has been lowered to 2 points, and Beast Cleave’s duration is now 3/6 seconds depending on your rank.

Yes! Ideally should be 4/8 sec duration, but a nice step in the right direction.

Agreed.

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I see it as like, training wheels. Obvs rightly or wrongly bm hunter has a reputation for being the “noob” spec and I personally see it as a good thing that they’re trying to make the spec inclusive for ppl who, for whatever reason, struggle with Frenzy uptime (and god knows I’m one of them, as my logs will attest).

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Fair enough. I looked at it as a situation where we have quite a few talents that aren’t going to be worth it. Obviously part of that comes down to tuning, but yeah, we’ll see. That new talent could probably help some people, but it generally isn’t going to provide us with any meaningful boost of damage.

Especially as maintaining Frenzy at 3 stacks at all times, vs losing it and having to build it back up on occasion, doesn’t affect our damage very much.

Continuing to see improvement!

Rather than a chance to see an extra frenzy stack generated by the new “Bloody Frenzy” to be added we could get something like the Feeding Frenzy Azerite trait? A bonus second to both Frenzy duration AND Beast Cleave for a 1 point investment could be nice.

I would REALLY like to see a return of a Blink Strike(s) type ability on active or passive. Sooo badly. Someone on Community Council please plug for me on the BM tree lol

I shared some other ideas that didn’t get too much traffic, if anyone is interested:

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I could see being a crutch for BM in the beginning of DF when we are secondary stat deficient Notably Crit for BS proc’s

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Yep, why not. Although, I’d prefer if they removed Loaded Quiver, and just added the second charge of BS back into the actual ability itself, by default. And then add something like Feeding Frenzy(or Bloodletting) to that node.

Or they could do it here, where you said, and just remove the node that was Loaded Quiver.

Hmm, could be useful in certain situations, sure.

True, but it’ll lose value fairly quickly as the expansion continues.

I would like it back as well def an improvement of life for pathing and time to target in spread target situations like Prototype Pantheon
.

Agreed just add it back to the opening BS node and done.

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For BM this doesn’t fix the tree bloat at the top still. Moving stuff and making choice nodes helps with some of the points but the top is still very very bloated.

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Agreed

There are 19 points that can be spent at the top of the BM tree. One could spend about 15 points before progressing to the center of the tree. This doesn’t leave much to select at the bottom of the tree.

Blizzard: There are too many multi-point talents at the top of each of the Hunter spec trees!

Here’s an idea: Please, do NOT require multi-point predecessor talent requirements to unlock a successor. Have the successor talent unlock with a single point. This allows the player flexibility in where the put the extra points at high character levels. During leveling, a player will need to be very selective as they progress. At max level, the player should have options at how they adjust their play style for the type of content.

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really want to see lonewolf become baseline, and a ranged survival type (mop/wod) dot(black arrow)/instacast arcane magic type shot spell added into MM tree, shoehorn that in somewhere, make it 4 main branches down the trees and everyone would be happy, would have aoe, trueshot type mid, wailing arrow to the right, then next to that branch the ranged survival type dot/insta cast style of game play.

again, lonewolf should be baseline like how it is now

also when dual wield survival hunters? transmog or otherwise

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I logged on to play around with the changes and was disappointed. The marks tree is still pretty boring. The lack of options is so much less than some of the other classes. In 20 minutes I was basically done and had 2 builds, 1 for st and 1 for multi, that will probably never be changed for the entirety of the expac. There just wasn’t enough diversity in the tree to make more unique playstyle altering choices. The biggest decision i see is do we take rapid fire or not? They’re just not very exciting.

I think a big part of the problem is the amount of points that are pretty much required in the top gate of the tree. Taking rapid fire has me putting 15/30 available points in just the top tier. With Lone Wolf being moved to the top that could be 16/30. The amount of throughput nodes that while not very exciting, +crit chance or +damage, they will likely be mandatory. The focus nodes will definitely be mandatory to avoid being completely starved.

Then you move down just 1 more row and there’s more exciting damage increases. These too will probably be mandatory because like it or not, when the balance passes come through, they will be adjusted with these talent nodes in mind and the base numbers will be adjusted accordingly.

This leaves us in a scenario where marks hunters have to spend 20/30 points in the top half of the tree, with the most interesting ability we’ve picked up is Rapid Fire, a current baseline ability. The ability to branch out toward the bottom of the tree and make interesting build combinations is completely negated by the bloat and point requirements required at the top.

Talents like Improved Steady Shot are just required and shouldn’t exist. 2 points for Improved Arcane Shot is in this same catagory. It could easily be baked into Precise Shots. These 2 changes alone would turn 5 mandatory points into 2 and be a good start.

Talents like Steamline, Careful Aim, Killing Blow, Hunter’s Knowledge, and Focused Aim all being 2 point talents is also unnecessary. They’re just crit/damage increases that are boring talents and don’t justify the amount of points they require.

There’s also not a lot of interesting talents throughout the tree. In the 17 years of Hunter development there are a ton of interesting options that would go great in today’s iteration. Things like Readiness and the old version of Rapid Fire, resetting cd’s and big haste buffs would be nice. Effects like Expose Weakness from the old Dragonstalker set would make for a nice raid buff. Those are a few I would like to see make come backs.

I do love the communication and effort being shown by the devs thus far. Gives me a dangerous level of hope that some of these issues get hammered out.

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If you have alpha as you state, then I’d not recommend posting in here as most likely devs rarely, if at all, looks here. I would 100% post in the actual alpha feedback forums. Where the developers are much more likely to read and possibly even take in your feedback.

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