[Feedback - Build 45480] Hunter Class Talents + Beast Mastery

I like these. ANOTHER!

While on this topic, hunter’s currently suffer badly against rot damage + big hits.
My opinion is we can easily solve these issues with the above.

Some other ideas are avoidance + leech talent for rot. And active DR for big incoming hits, an improved Survival of the Fittest (or something similiar) is mandatory as a talent at this stage, that ability in it’s current form is horribly bad.

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PvP talent Survival Tactics brought into the tree somewhere would be nice.
If its not a thing already. Probably not though.

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Some are, yep. Not all though.

Ideally, they should lower the points needed for Beast Cleave to 2, and then make a 1 point tangent node below it that we can pick to further increase Beast Cleave damage by a bit, but also the duration by something similar to the current tier set bonus(+6 sec for a total of 10 sec duration).

Not sure what you meant here.

They’re changing it so that it will go back to being a baseline element of the ability itself.

Or, they said so at least.

Especially considering how they’re including Kill Command in our AoE now, which is a very good thing btw, I’d say that what I said above here is almost required to make it flow well enough.

:+1:

I’d say that if we get what I suggested in that tooltip, we’re going to be in a decent spot, in terms of survivability. When accounting for what else they’ve mentioned…

But no, SotF in it’s current form isn’t all that good.

There are still PvP talents in the alpha, so, perhaps it’s still there?

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I agree with the idea of letting players choose between the beast canon and just one pet best master, i personally i enjoy the idea of just playing with one companion instead of a zoo

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A couple of things I would like to be enabled for BM.

Have Pet and Hunter Damage BOTH apply to Miss Direction.

I foresee {Hopefully that is} our pet based burst AOE damage with Beast Cleave and its enhancement node on secondary spawns or mob packs especially in M+ situation’s when tasked with gathering big packs for burn phases MS looks to still hit like a wet noodle
I’d still prefer Animal Companion be replaced with something anything else. We will fire off so many Barbed Shots its a no brainier to take Sharp Barbs and its Gated by AC… not good Enter Flayed shot Yah?

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New layout structures in the most recent build for the class tree + Beast Mastery(all changes for the trees can be found below)

Class tree

  • Rejuvenation Wind has been added in row 5 as a replacement to Improved Exhilaration(pet heal, now baseline instead)
  • Camouflage has been moved up to row 5, to where the choice node for Scatter Shot/Binding Shot was previously placed.
  • PH Agility node on row 6 changed to an Avoidance node(name’s still Hunter’s Agility). New path, connecting to Rejuvenation Wind.
  • Hi-Explosive Trap/Intimidation choice node moved 1 spot to the left, now below Rejuvenation Wind instead of Fogged Crystal.
  • Scatter Shot/Binding Shot choice node moved to row 6, to where Hi-Explosive Trap/Intimidation was previously placed.
  • Improved Traps moved up to row 6, to where Camouflage was previously placed.
  • Binding Shackles moved 1 row to the left, to where Improved Traps was previously placed.
  • Pathways have been added between rows 7 and 8. 1 path from Binding Shackles, and another from Agile Movement, both connecting to Keen Eyesight.
    • Since Binding Shackles was moved 1 row to the left, the pathway from that talent that connected to Barrage has been removed.
  • Viper’s Venom/Latent Posion Injectors choice node has been changed. Viper’s Venom was moved to the Survival spec tree. Hydra’s Bite has been added to the choice node as a replacement to Viper’s Venom.

Beast Mastery

  • Nothing changed in the first bracket(top section).
  • Stomp has been moved up to row 7, to where Bloodshed was previously placed.
  • Wailing Arrow has been moved down to row 9, and now connects to both Scent of Blood + Barbed Wrath.
  • New talent: Pack Resilience added to row 9, where Dire Command was previously placed.
  • Dire Command has been moved up to row 8, and now connects to both In for the Kill, and Stomp.
  • Bloodshed, as mentioned earlier, has been moved down to row 9. Connects to both Dire Command + Stomp + Scent of Blood.
  • Dire Pack has been reworked, now provides an interaction between summoned Dire Beasts, and Kill Command(Focus cost, cooldown+reset). Previously it increased damage dealt by Steady Shot and Multi-Shot based on Dire Beasts summoned.

Here’s an image of what the talent trees looked like in the first iterations, for comparison to the above: https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/YJJBNTLCA6H61657039970304.png
Note: The class tree in the linked image has the structure it held before the first “batch” of changes from phase 2. To see what else was changed with it, check this post.

2 Likes

Now if we could only get a usable Aspect that would make us want to take the Born to be Wild cooldown reduction Node at 3 points its another dead spot still.

Gotta say most choices will depend on tuning to become Viable or Not ! plus the overall amount of 2 and the single 3 point pt choice nodes in the BM tree makes it difficult to reliably hit the bottom nodes without giving up some nice upper nodes

All will be boiled down to two Raid builds St or AOE with a bit of choice/necessity depending on healer competency in regards to Pet survivability at the expense of throughput
M Plus will likewise have its recommended cookie cutter builds to deal with specific affixes.
The only real variation of choice will be for Solo world content.
Gotta say it looks like we are getting listened to and replied to! So this is a big improvement

3 Likes

Hmm, do you mean that you want Beast Cleave + Kill Cleave to not hit for a lot or? I would hope that it’s the other way around. Sorry, probably misunderstood you here^^

I’m also hoping that they’ll make Beast Cleave a 2 point-node, still providing what it currently says, but that they then add another 1 point-node below Beast Cleave which you can take to increase the damage dealt by it by 10% + increasing it’s base duration by another 6 sec. Will be a neat QoL change for the main “rotation”.

I’m still hoping that they’ll rework Animal Companion into a baseline passive effect that has no effect on our throughput. Having said that, the talent Sharp Barbs that, if taken, gives you 10% more Barbed Shot damage at 2/2, I wouldn’t ever go for that one. Sure, we will fire off a lot of Barbed Shots, but I still doubt it’ll be worth picking that talent.

Hmm, from what I can see, we’ll be able to take most of the stuff we would want. It’ll ofc depend on tuning of the damaging abilities in the 3rd bracket(bottom section). What you’d want to spend points on. Example

Atm, you have to spend FAR too many points(6) to get from the second bracket, down to Dire Pack in the BM tree. Compared to the choice node for Rylakstalker/Killer Cobra which only takes 3 points. Or the node for Bloody Frenzy/Wild Instincts, which requires 4 points.

In short, they need to remove 1 point from Dire Command, so it gives us a 15/30% chance, instead of 10/20/30%. And on top of that, they should also remove 1 point from the new talent: Pack Resilience, so that it becomes a 1-point talent.

Yep. Hopefully, though, there’s yet more to come.

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This definitely needs some tweaks. Left side costs 8 points from BW to the bottom while the right side costs 5. The changes are top tier for sure but we still require too much in the top making the bottom an issue still.

They removed the roadblock to stomp which is amazing and Wailing Arrow is actually selectable now but there’s still stuff like 2pt One with the Pack. What I’d love to see that would make the tree so much more functional :

  1. Move Killer Command to where Training Expert currently is.
  2. Move Training Expert to where Kindred Spirits currently is and reduce the cost to 1pt for 10%; based on the current 50/50 hunter/pet split this is only a 4-5% overall damage increase and shouldn’t cost 2 points.
  3. Move Kindred Spirits into Pack Tactics.
  4. Add Feeding Frenzy’s Barbed Shot extension OR Bloodletting’s Barbed Shot CD reduction to Loaded Quiver; CD reduction is preferred IMO.
  5. Change Beast Cleave to be 2pt for 35%/70% (more or less depending on balance needs) and 4s/8s duration.

I think Beast Cleave is by far the biggest roadblock in the tree right now. You will pick this talent in nearly all forms of content with very very few exceptions. It needs to be cheaper in order to make more of the tree accessible.

Right now I don’t see Qa’pla, One with the Pack, Sharp Barbs, or In for the Kill ever being taken. Dire Pack is extremely expensive to reach so if that line isn’t super OP it’s dead too.

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Right now the major outlier for BM is the 19 point spread before the 8 point mark

There’s a lack of new ideas or functionality in the top of the tree, so it’s just straight up increases or old talents turned into 2 point nodes

We really need just a straight up slimming down of the point cost at the top of the tree. Beast cleave and multi shot should just be one talent, barbed shot 2nd charge needs to be baseline, it’s not a functional choice since playing without it is awful, likewise kindred spirits and aspect of the beast should be single point talents, with that trim we’re still the most expensive top end by far, but it’s a little less egregious and gives us room at the bottom of the tree.

6 Likes

Yep. Agreed.

I still don’t get why they insist on sticking it in the actual spec trees. As they’ve said, they’re going to make it so MSV can make use of all abilities in the class tree, including the ranged ones, despite wielding a melee weapon. And Wailing Arrow itself has no thematic tie to either BM or MM. There’s no argument for why it shouldn’t become a class talent, rather than being an option in 2 spec trees.

Put it in the capstone row in the class tree, between Death Chakram and Explosive Shot, if people also want to keep the damage component of it, and not just the utility of the Silence-effect.

If the damage it deals isn’t as important, then put it up in the second bracket, as an extension/tangent node to Counter Shot.

One with the Pack, based on how they’ve made it worse than it is on live, shouldn’t be a 2p talent, no. Nor should Wild Call itself…

Okay, but what would you put there instead, in the position where Killer Command currently sits?

Loaded Quiver, the part where we now have to take that talent for the second charge of Barbed Shot, that shouldn’t exist. Simple as that. We all learned that lesson during Legion, before we had that second baseline charge. Having to take a talent just to get that back, it’ll never feel good.

But yeah, remove that part from it, put it back into Barbed Shot as a baseline. Then by all means, add the effect of Feeding frenzy/Bloodletting to the talent in the spot of Loaded Quiver as a replacement.

Yep. Agreed.

You will always pick it, unless you’re in a pure ST scenario/encounter. PvP might be a different case though, still doesn’t justify keeping it as a 3p talent.

It may depend on tuning ofc, depending on what they decide to do with it, come beta. But atm, I would agree.

Yep. Pretty much.

In some ways, not even that. They just need to not pick apart abilities and stretching them out across multiple talents, instead of putting them in as they are and then adding even more to it, as separate options.

I get your point, but…hmm…

Yes!

Agreed. Or well, Kindred Spirits shouldn’t be a talent at all really. If we go BM, we should just have 120 Focus as a baseline.

3 Likes

Trash stilll.
Why make nestwaring’s a requirement from chakrums? Both are GARBO.

Honestly, oh nimrod or nimrix or whatever he calls himself is completely lost at the surv tree and it shows. He is doing the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what many have voiced to him.

  1. Why the increased CD on an already crappy CD?
  2. WE DO NOT WANT KS/BOMB PLAYSTYLE. Get rid of deadly duo instead of just making the proc happen every 35 seconds instead of a minute. Its complete trash.
  3. SURV HUNTERS DONT LIKE CRIT. Why would you add crit to fury? Two, why would you make it proc only under 35%?

They are making surv hunters into a execute spec where they ONLY do dmg under 35%.

Garbo blizz.

Clearly I am not as knowledgeable about the specific Hunter skills and how they interact as some of you are. I always appreciate the analysis and comparisons.

However, I would just like to say that I appreciate the communication from Blizzard and the fact that some things are being addressed. It seems much more dynamic that previous and it gives me hope for the class going forward.

I’m sure plenty still needs to be addressed and I will alway gripe about pet pathing issues, but it’s a big step forward. Not everyone will get exactly what they want but what we have had in the past hasn’t always worked. I’m willing to try something different.

4 Likes

I think 4 points for multi shot/beast cleave is a bit too much, you dont take multi shot without beast cleave and you have to fill out beast cleave to get kill cleave, which is one of the genuine fantastic new ideas(that the forums have been suggesting for years)

But this means that baseline aoe damage is a 5 pt investment, with one of those 5 points being absolutely awful. if it was 1 - 1 - 1 it would be more reasonable, adding 2 seconds of beast cleave to kill cleave would sort out the inherent focus/time constraint that kill cleave adds to the now shorter aoe cycle.

To be fair if they fold in 2 charges baseline and hit a bunch of those 2 pointers that should be one pointers and bring us in line with the 12-15 point spread before the first barrier that all other classes have it will also give us an easier time getting down to the rest of the tree, where some actual interesting choices feel locked behind a heavy point investment.

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Hmm? It isn’t.

You can go down to Chakrams from Keen Eyesight.

Agreed. I still hope that they’ll do more before launch, but it’s getting better.

Some things ofc depend on how you look at it. I’ve updated the OP to reflect my thoughts on the talent trees as they are now, in phase 3 of the alpha.

Yep, agreed. I updated the OP with my current thoughts. Now that the trees have been iterated on over a few weeks.

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You don’t need to put anything there. Leave it blank like the left side is in that position.

I think it’s fine to leave the 2nd charge as a talents as long as it isn’t the only thing you get for the point. If you get the 2nd charge and Bloodletting CD reduction it becomes more powerful for the point spent than either on their own. I can see an issue late xpac where you have enough haste to where the CD reduction is meaningless and you feel forced to take it still because of the 2nd charge though. But as long as BW CD reduction exists that really isn’t an issue.

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It was an example aimed at my comment as to why Miss-direction should include pet Damage.

Looking at the hunter tree we will most likely pass on pet survivability nodes like Thick hide and Improved Mend pet in Raid and M+ scenario enabling us to get throughput nodes.
Mobs fixating on pets will translate to them getting wrecked if the mob threat fails to transfer to Tank. Even on live I have had my Clefthoof drop like a rock on a few occasions when it grabbed threat and die on the return run to the tank.

Yeah Rework to baseline cosmetic and replace. Not sure on Sharp Barbs as it will depend on the way BS is tuned and works in DF
You are correct in the problem with no Node to increase Beast Cleave duration Id take that over AC any day.

Agreed I would like the same treatment 1.5-3% to Crit on TotH as well.

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Well, then there would be no path going down from where you intend for Training Expert to be. You’d lose a path to Dire Beast. Not the biggest deal ofc. But, yeah…

I would disagree with this. Unless you have that baseline, and unless you talent into Wild Call as well, you will basically never be able to reach 3 stacks of Frenzy on your pet. Not to mention how much lower your uptime of Bestial Wrath would be.

Add that second charge back as a default element of Barbed Shot itself, and then do something like this:

…that would be the way to go, IMO. They can include the added Barbed Shot damage as well ofc. They could also go the other way and add the old perk that increased the duration of Frenzy by 1 sec, instead of the lowered cooldown.

Ah, okay. Well, your pet overtaking threat from a tank is usually never an issue, in my experience. Only in cases where your pet keeps hitting the mob, but the tank hasn’t done so yet, or is no longer doing so.

:+1:

Unless they buff it/increase the bonus damage it provides, it will not be worth it, ever.

I’d prefer if they put that node below Beast Cleave itself, or better yet, just reduce the amount of points required for Beast Cleave to 2, with the same total damage, but make each point then add 4 sec to the duration of Beast Cleave.

Considering how many points we will want to take in the first bracket/top section, I agree. Right now, we probably want to take between 13-17 points up there, depending on ST or AoE, and tuning ofc.

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Well, some announcements coming our way on a friday.

#Feedback: Hunters - #117 by Nimox-11491

Hello again, Hunters.

We wanted to discuss some adjustments coming to your talents in a future build, and briefly mention a few thoughts.

Class Tree
The current design intentionally has almost all utility above the second gate, which means you have 11 points that will almost certainly be spent only on throughput choices in PvE situations. We like having a bunch of abilities located past the second gate that were previously locked to individual specs. This has also created a situation where there’s a lot of bloat of extra abilities and cooldowns that feel mandatory because they are available and likely worth pressing. The last 3 rows of the tree have been shuffled around a bit and will continue to be adjusted to try to prevent most hunters from feeling obligated to acquire multiple extra active buttons.

  • Barrage and Explosive Shot are now a choice node.
  • Stampede now replaces Chakram in the choice node vs Death Chakram.
    • Chakram has been removed from the talent tree.
  • Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus has been lowered to 2 points.

Beast Mastery

  • Bloodshed and Murder of Crows is now a choice node, and is where Dire Beast previously was.
  • Dire Beast has been moved to where Murder of Crows was.
  • New Talent - Bloody Frenzy - Barbed Shot has a chance to apply a second stack of Frenzy to your pets. This is located in the second gate area.
  • Beast Cleave has been lowered to 2 points, and Beast Cleave’s duration is now 3/6 seconds depending on your rank.

Marksmanship
While Rapid Fire is not a required ability, we’re trying to integrate it to the tree where it would make sense. Marksmanship has very limited passive Focus generation, and Rapid Fire should ideally help with that. We want to avoid situations where you drop Steady Shot entirely while doing prolonged combat.

  • Deathblow has been made a 1-point node. Rapid Fire casts (not damage events) can now also activate this. The chance for activation is different for Aimed Shot vs Rapid Fire.
  • Razor Fragments now also works with Deathblow procs, rather than being tied solely to Trick Shots.
  • Bombardment’s design has changed - Every 6/4 (2-rank node) Arcane or Chimaera Shots causes your next Multi-Shot to grant you Trick Shots, regardless of how many targets it hits.
    • This will likely be changed to a 1-point node, or adjusted to also boost Multi-Shot damage per rank. The location of this also needs to be adjusted as you can currently select this without Multi-Shot.
  • Lone Wolf’s spot in the tree has been moved to above the first gate.
  • More things connect to Lock and Load’s talent node.
  • Some redundant node connections have been removed.
  • Legacy of the Windrunners and Serpentstalker’s Trickery node locations have been swapped.
  • Unerring Vision’s design has slightly changed to also increase critical damage while Trueshot is active.

Survival
Spearhead and Coordinated Assault are competing for some space in the tree. We’re hoping to identify a set of abilities to that each augments in a way that feels good, and also would prefer a design that doesn’t encourage you to stack both of them at the same time. Some adjustments are being made to these abilities to try to focus on different parts of your ability sets in a manner that lets both Coordinated Assault and Spearhead hopefully feel both distinct from each other, while still feeling powerful on their own.

  • Mongoose Bite should actually replace Raptor Strike now.
  • Predator returned to 25%, rather than 8%. This was a data error when changing from a 3 point node to a 1 point node.
  • A connection between Lunge and Frenzy Strikes has been removed to prevent a dependency problem.
  • Deadly Duo renamed Quick Shot, and redesigned. When Kill Command’s cooldown is reset, you fire a free Arcane Shot at your target.
  • Coordinated Assault is back to 2 minutes.
  • Coordinated Assault no longer modifies Carve. Instead, your pet’s special attack increases the initial damage of your next Wildfire Bomb.
    • Birds of Prey will likely be adjusted in a future build to more directly work with the design tweaks of Coordinated Assault.
  • Bonded Companion renamed Deadly Duo, and redesigned. While Coordinated Assault is active, Wildfire Bomb’s cooldown is reduced by 25/50%, Wildfire Bombs generate 5/10 Focus when thrown, and Kill Shot can be used on any target regardless of the target’s HP.
  • Coordinated Kill redesigned, and is now 2 points. While Spearhead is active, Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite Focus Cost is reduced by 5/10, and Kill Command resets increase the duration of Spearhead by 1/2 sec.

Some good announcements for sure. Always nice to get more information about changes and their reasoning around it. Sounds like overall good changes, especially for Survival whos last rows are just a mess at the moment.

In my last thread I lifted my issues and there is a whole bunch about them that is not addressed but some of them at least are.

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