[Feedback - Build 45480] Hunter Class Talents + Beast Mastery

[Vitwolfen-nazjatar (Vitwolfen)]

@Müzglob-hydraxis

flashy AOE swipes or furious howls that demoralize our enemies.

Lynx Rush? AoE Interrupt + Daze on a 1-minute cooldown?

@Müzglob-hydraxis

Execute maneuvers!

Imagining a knockdown + channeled attack… Stag stomping something to death, croc chowing down on a downed enemy, etc.

@Müzglob-hydraxis

Barbed Shot is not the worst concept- I’m just not sure it’s exciting to stack something that has so little visual feedback.

If your pet got, say, 10% bigger per stack of Frenzy (and you got some 2% bigger per stack of TotH), would that suffice, or is the issue more than just visual?

@Müzglob-hydraxis

Imagine Barbed shot as an ability that instead opens up a window that CHANGES GAMEPLAY!

How so?

That feels like it might be more significant that could be afforded by such a low cooldown, though another or an alternative could certainly do that.

Also, imagine, real quick, if Frenzy were to just provide raw Haste and a bit of movement speed and BM natively benefitted from most effects which benefit your pet, at X% efficacy. Barbed Shot would therefore also have a noticeable Haste buff. Would that Haste itself be considered any sort of a gameplay change?

@Müzglob-hydraxis

Maybe it keeps Hunter’s Cadence stacks at max for a period without needing to keep up consistent execution, creating a window of opportunity of CHOICE to get another ability off depending on the situation: maybe you use it to get a movement ability off and reposition, maybe you cast a wailing arrow, set a trap etc)

Just a tad confused by this. Doesn’t BM’s lack of a filler skill and its unconstrained mobility already leave constant room for repositioning and fairly frequent room for non-BM skills?

@Müzglob-hydraxis

I would love Hunter class talents that affect gameplay decisions too. Imagine a “Blunderbluss” talent ability that incentivized closing the gap on low health targets for a high damage cone facing your target, or an “Unseen Vantage” talent that incentivized remaining in a targets blind spot for damage & avoidance bonuses- which might vary in risk or practicality by encounter.

Could be annoying for certain encounters, as you said, but, it’d also go a long way to making unrestrained mobility feel more less like an excessive luxury and more like a useful tool.

These all sound really cool!

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Müzglob-hydraxis

from a fantasy perspective is that from any sense of in-universe “realism” (I use this word very lightly, this is a game) people slinging magic and using efficient ranged weapons SHOULD be outperforming melee types consistently and significantly.

Shouldn’t that be the inverse? A bow is always going to be less physically efficient than an equally sharp object stabbed into someone directly.

@Müzglob-hydraxis

By the same token- actual magic should be outperforming conventional ranged weapons in most cases.

Though yes, also this. At least in the cases of things like a “giant *ing fireball” (Pyroblast) vs. “I shot an arrow, and the arrow was red and a little evil-looking” (Kill Shot).

@Müzglob-hydraxis

So yeah, from a feel perspective it’s pretty much going to be impossible to reconcile comparable performance (from the perspective of melee players) with fantasy “realism” (from the perspective of ranged/caster players).

Wholly disagree, but fair enough. If there’s aspects that can double over after making BM more enjoyable at range, great, but if BM were to have to rely on melee-specific aspects just to become more compelling, that’s already too great a shortfall.

@Müzglob-hydraxis

But how does this conversation actionably help discuss improvements to the Beast Mastery spec for what it is?

On this note, I’d really just love to see sort of synergetic and satisfying specific pet skills (assuming that each pet gets to choose its own specialization/affinity again and can pick from some 3 skills so that most pets can handle the typical PvP necessities like MS).

Let my Wind Serpent stack up buffs to be consumed in firing off some manner of giga lightning bolt/beam/chain. Let me build up {stuff} to let my Cat combat stealth and then rip into a particular enemy. Let my Wolf unleash a Howl that increases damage affected enemies take from it and me for a further mini damage window. Let my Stag gore and reposition enemies with a tackling charge. Etc., etc.

As a Beast Master, it feels like our kits should be oversized, if anything, by the affordances of our specific beasts, not… by typical perception, the simplest of the 3 specs.

[Müzglob-hydraxis]

Good points!

I do think something as straightforward as haste & size increases with frenzy would make me feel like I was ramping up or staying at peak rage with my beast… Pet going hulk mode watch out!

Movement speed stacks could help reinforce our mobile identity as long as they were not too crazy (I say this as a player who loves speed boosts in general, I get overly excited even rolling tertiary speed bonuses on gear lol)

And I do agree we already kind of feel like we have downtime as BM-- but it could be more fun if those downtime moments seemed like opportunities to pull off something trickier, particularly if utilizing our movement, to possibly open the skill ceiling a little? It’s nice to have something to chase for in different scenarios to squeeze out those last few extra % points of potential.

I think even mediocre players like myself can recognize that and enjoy having something a little more difficult to strive for as long as it is not tuned in such a way that your performance totally tanks if you can’t nail the uptime. (Frenzy stacks themselves are a great example of the same design philosophy, I just want something else to coexist with that in a way that keeps our kit more engaging)

One thing I will say for the Covenants in SL; for BM they introduced some much needed mini-mechanics that added a sliver of complexity. Whether it was picking up ground buffs / facing the target / positioning your burst zone / or just having an extra button to light up and play whack-a-mole with.

[Müzglob-hydraxis]

That’s fair, fantasy is tricky because everyone imagines things a bit differently lol.

Totally on the same page on the pet synergy though! I really want them to double down on those pet abilities and make impactful. Ferocity/Tenacity/Cunning etc should really be assignable again, even outside of BM…

I actually think BM Exotic Training should allow us to pick a secondary ability for our pet that they normally would not have access to. Could be an easy way to add depth/choice!

[Vitwolfen-nazjatar (Vitwolfen)]

@Müzglob-hydraxis

And I do agree we already kind of feel like we have downtime as BM-- but it could be more fun if those downtime moments seemed like opportunities to pull off something trickier, particularly if utilizing our movement, to possibly open the skill ceiling a little?

Sorry if this seems overly semantic, but… if you have momentary opportunities to do X, and during that time the value of X would be really heightened or opportunity cost decreased, is that still downtime, or just, similar to a LnL proc, another thing to hit rotationally?

I like the idea of having that momentary advantage, but it’d have to be carefully tuned to simply diminish filler (which, for BM, is “downtime actions”) opportunity cost instead of just adding a further (pseudo)CD to manage.

/endrant

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Food for thought: Let’s say you have a big, faintly inefficient Focus spender. Maybe you normally hit it during Wild + BW because you’re not going to run out of Focus early there anyways, and/or at the tail of any BW to snapshot some more damage under BW’s buff if you were running Nessingwary’s or some other Focus boost effect.

But, if you would otherwise overcap on Focus by using a Trap or the like, that has further affordance: you could use the otherwise less efficient option to dump a ton of Focus all at once, avoiding the opportunity cost of using the Trap.

Yes, this idea comes from former Arms suggestions of making one of our spammables---Whirlwind---still worth using in ST, baseline, so that we could, though less efficiently, spend our resource more rapidly at times to avoid overcapping or for a tiny bit more burst-at-cost-to-sustain.

@Müzglob-hydraxis

One thing I will say for the Covenants in SL; for BM they introduced some much needed mini-mechanics that added a sliver of complexity. Whether it was picking up ground buffs / facing the target / positioning your burst zone / or just having an extra button to light up and play whack-a-mole with.

Here’s hoping Trinkets will be able to do the same.

…Also hoping we get legos in a form similar to the old DK Sigils. That way they take up no real slots but can have stat growth atop their gameplay effects.

@Müzglob-hydraxis

Ferocity/Tenacity/Cunning etc should really be assignable again, even outside of BM…

I actually think BM Exotic Training should allow us to pick a secondary ability for our pet that they normally would not have access to.

Yes, please.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Edit: The auto-generated talent list in the tab has been made more readable.

Nice, though Row breaks would probably help, too.

Still a little painful to imagine

Yeah, I noticed that as well, the auto-generated list function did not actually put them in the right order. I guess it compiled the list based on a preformated import order, and then put the ones you added manually last, rather than actually checking where they were in the tree structure…

Anyway, I’ve fixed that as well now. Assuming I did not mess up, they should be in order, from left to right for each new row.

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Talent Summary

Beast Mastery Hunter Concept
Created with TTM Version 1.3.7
Number of talents: 41
Description:

Concept for Beast Mastery

Talents:

Animal Companion

Your Call Pet additionally summons the first pet from your stable. This pet will obey your Kill Command, but cannot use pet family abilities.

I want this talent to be made a baseline passive effect. A choice that has no direct impact on increasing throughput, but instead is purely about the aesthetics/visuals of fighting with 1 or 2 pets.

-Row 1-

Cobra Shot
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
A quick shot causing Physical damage.

Reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1 sec.

-Row 2-

Multi-Shot
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Fires several missiles, hitting all nearby enemies within 8 yards of your current target for Physical damage.

Barbed Shot
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Fire a shot that tears through your enemy, causing them to bleed for damage over 8 sec.

Sends your pet into a frenzy, increasing attack speed by 30% for 8 sec, stacking up to 3 times.

Generates 20 Focus over 8 sec.

-Row 3-

Beast Cleave
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:

• After you Multi-Shot, your pet’s melee attacks also strike all nearby enemies for 35% as much for the next 3.0 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 3 targets.
• After you Multi-Shot, your pet’s melee attacks also strike all nearby enemies for 75% as much for the next 6.0 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.

Wild Call
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Your auto shot critical strikes have a 20% chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot.

Qa’pla, Eredun War Order
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:

• Barbed Shot deals 10% increased damage, and applying Barbed Shot has a 50% chance to the cooldown of Kill Command.
• Barbed Shot deals 20% increased damage, and applying Barbed Shot has a 100% chance to the cooldown of Kill Command.

Training Expert
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
All pet damage dealt increased by 10%.

-Row 4-

Kill Cleave
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
While Beast Cleave is active, Kill Command now also strikes nearby enemies for 50% of damage dealt.

One with the Pack
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Wild Call has a 10% increased chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot.

Kindred Spirits
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Increases your maximum Focus and your pet’s maximum Focus by 20.

Killer Command
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Kill Command damage increased by 10%.

Sharp Barbs
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0
Descriptions:
Barbed shot damage increased by 15%.

-Row 5-

Bloodseeker
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Targets struck by Kill Command during Beast Cleave also start to bleed for Physical damage over 6 sec.

Kill Command has a chance to immediately reset its cooldown when used while Beast Cleave is active.

Thrill of the Hunt
Talent type: passive
Max points: 3 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:

• Barbed Shot increases your critical strike chance by 3% for 8 sec, stacking up to 1 time.
• Barbed Shot increases your critical strike chance by 3% for 8 sec, stacking up to 2 times.
• Barbed Shot increases your critical strike chance by 3% for 8 sec, stacking up to 3 times.

Pack Tactics
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Passive Focus generation increased by 100%.

Aspect of the Beast
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Increases the damage and healing of your pet’s abilities by 30%.

Increases the effectiveness of your pet’s Predator’s Thirst, Endurance Training, and Pathfinding passives by 50%.

Cobra Senses
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Cobra Shot reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1.0 sec.

Bloodletting
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Increases the base duration of the bleed effect of Barbed Shot, and the duration of Frenzy by 1 sec.

Critical damage dealt by Kill Command is increased by 10% against bleeding targets.

-Row 6-

Stomp
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:

• When you cast Barbed Shot, your pet stomps the ground, dealing Physical damage to all nearby enemies.
• When you cast Barbed Shot, your pet stomps the ground, dealing Physical damage to all nearby enemies.

#18 Bestial Wrath
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Sends you and your pet into a rage, instantly dealing Physical damage to its target, and increasing all damage you both deal by 25% for 15 sec. Removes all crowd control effects from your pet.

Aspect of the Wild
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Fire off a Cobra Shot at your current target and 1 other enemy near your current target. For the next 20 sec, your Cobra Shot will fire at 1 extra target and Cobra Shot Focus cost reduced by 10.

-Row 7-

In for the Kill
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Kill Command has a 10% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Shot, and causes your next Kill Shot to be usable on any target, regardless of the target’s health.

A Murder of Crows / Bloodshed
Talent type: choice
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:

• Summons a flock of crows to attack your target, dealing Physical damage over 15 sec. If the target dies while under attack, A Murder of Crows’ cooldown is reset.
• Command your pet to tear into your target, causing your target to bleed for damage over 18 sec and increase all damage taken from your pet by 15% for 18 sec.

Barbed Wrath
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Barbed Shot reduces the cooldown of Bestial Wrath by 12.0 sec.

Dire Beast
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Summons a powerful wild beast that attacks the target and roars, increasing your Haste by 5% for 8 sec.

Master Handler / Snake Bite
Talent type: choice
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:

• Each temporary beast summoned reduces the cooldown of Aspect of the Wild by 2.0 sec.
• While Aspect of the Wild is active, Cobra Shot deals 30% increased damage.

Flamewaker’s Cobra Sting
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8
Descriptions:
Cobra Shot has a 20% chance to make your next Kill Command consume no Focus.

-Row 8-

Call of the Wild
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
You sound the call of the wild, summoning 2 of your active pets for 20 sec. During this time, a random pet from your stable will appear every 4 sec to assault your target for 6 sec.

Scent of Blood
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• Activating Bestial Wrath grants 1 charge of Barbed Shot.
• Activating Bestial Wrath grants 2 charges of Barbed Shot.

Dire Command
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• Kill Command has a 15% chance to also summon a Dire Beast to attack your target for 8 sec.
• Kill Command has a 30% chance to also summon a Dire Beast to attack your target for 8 sec.

Cobra Commander
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• When Cobra Shot hits a target, there’s a chance that this summons 2 snakes to poison the enemy, dealing Nature damage over 3 sec.
• When Cobra Shot hits a target, there’s a chance that this summons 4 snakes to poison the enemy, dealing Nature damage over 6 sec.

-Row 9-

Endless Wrath
Talent type: passive
Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• Bonus Kill Shots granted by Kill Command extend the remaining duration of Bestial Wrath by 1 sec, and increase the damage bonus it grants by an additional 5% while it’s active.
• Bonus Kill Shots granted by Kill Command extend the remaining duration of Bestial Wrath by 2 sec, and increase the damage bonus it grants by an additional 10% while it’s active.

Brutal Companion
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
When Barbed Shot causes Frenzy to stack up to 3, or when you refresh it while at 3 stacks, your pet will immediately use its special attack and deal 100% bonus damage.

Wailing Arrow
Talent type: active
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
Fire an enchanted arrow, dealing Shadow damage to your target and an additional Shadow damage to all enemies within 8 yds of your target. Targets struck by a Wailing Arrow are silenced for 5 sec.

Dire Frenzy
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
Dire Beast lasts an additional 2 sec and deal 30% increased damage.

Cobra Strikes
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
Cobra Shot now strikes one additional target while Aspect of the Wild is active.

-Row 10-

Wild Instincts / Bloody Frenzy
Talent type: choice
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot has a 25% chance to gain a charge any time Focus is spent.
• While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot affects all of your summoned pets.

Feeding Frenzy
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
Casting Barbed Shot increases the initial damage dealt by Bestial Wrath by 100%, and the damage bonus granted by Bestial Wrath by 4%, stacking up to 4 times.

Killer Cobra / Rylakstalker’s Piercing Fangs
Talent type: choice
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:

• While Bestial Wrath is active, Cobra Shot resets the cooldown on Kill Command.
• While Bestial Wrath is active, your pet’s critical damage dealt is increased by 35%.

Dire Pack
Talent type: passive
Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20
Descriptions:
Every 5 Dire Beasts summoned resets the cooldown of Kill Command, and reduces the Focus cost and cooldown of Kill Command by 50% for 8 sec.

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[Ingvaeonic-dalaran]

Again, using an extremely subpar spec to compare is ill-advised, to say it nicely.

Countless feral druids would call out the damage breakdown as horrible and want to see a return to dot-majority damage. Just bc blizz wants it one way doesn’t mean the playerbase wants it, its just what they are FORCED to do to be viable.

The same goes with BM. We are seeing an increased focus on BS, especially in regards to frenzy stacks. BM has NEVER been a dot oriented spec. By pushing so much emphasis on BS, you make or break BM’s damage profile according to the boss mechanics. Instead of BM being more or less viable for every boss when direct damage os focused, you turn it into an all or nothing spec. This is based on the ability to maintain BS/frenzy stacks. If a boss has mechanics that force the BM to regularly drop stacks, BM will suffer more heavily with the higher dmg profile of BS. If a boss mechanics matches with BS, BM will be powerful. This isnt to forget if, and yes i mean IF the pet can reach the necessary targets. On the last boss of CN, we experienced how detrimental a fight can be without a pet path to a target.

So, when building spec trees, it is not just “oh that works” in a general context, its a “will this work” in even the worst of contexts.

[Vitwolfen-nazjatar (Vitwolfen)]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

I guess it compiled the list based on a preformated import order

Yep. If you add any talents before the very bottom-right corner, you’d need to delete and recreate everything after them (in L->R, T->B order) to actually have their numbers reflect their position.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

I guess it compiled the list based on a preformated import order

Yep. If you add any talents before the very bottom-right corner, you’d need to delete and recreate everything after them (in L->R, T->B order) to actually have their numbers reflect their position

Seems to be the case yes, though, I just changed the list manually.

I forgot to include these answers btw^^

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

also, how much better this and MM’s tree could be if Multi-Shot/Carve were baseline…

I agree it would def be an improvement.

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

Scent of Blood also feels barely perhaps too expensive w/o heavy BW or BS synergies elsewhere by which to improve upon those extra Barbed Shots per minute, perhaps warranting some additional, smaller effect and maybe a deeper placement or to have its placement shuffled with that of Dire Beast (it’s pathable without grabbing Bestial Wrath anyways as is) as to be more accessible to Barbed Shot-augmenting specs?

Not too sure about that. With the new talent structure in mind(the overarching “tree” design, with paths, etc.), it’s ofc a different scenario compared to how it is on live.

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EDIT:

I just noticed that in the initial post for this concept further up, the actual link to pastebin to get the code for the concept(to import into TTM), for some reason that link was removed when I posted it…

Here it is again: Code to import into the TalentTreeManager

[Vitwolfen-nazjatar (Vitwolfen)]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

With the new talent structure in mind(the overarching “tree” design, with paths, etc.), it’s ofc a different scenario compared to how it is on live.

While I may be underestimating them, I am keeping those in mind; the paths were the basis for my comment.

Admittedly, though, it’s a difficult thing to calculate.

A Barbed Shot proc that wouldn’t have extended your 3-Frenzy-duration (i.e., you’d have another charge come up before it’d have fallen off), after all, is worth only 130.5% AP Bleed damage.

• Actually, I’d have to hop on rq to even check that its Bleed damage itself stacks; if it doesn’t, it can be worth as little as 26.1% AP in ST.

On the other hand, a Barbed Shot that extends the Frenzy window when it otherwise would have fallen off (thus extending the capped uptime by far more than any single duration of Frenzy), and keeps up TotH, and has the +50% damage, and resets Kill Command, and casts Stomp… would be disgustingly huge.

It’d probably not worth thinking about too much further, given the changes, though, if only because the Barbed Shot synergies are split across both sides, with Stomp being no more “direct path” than Qa’pla, Thrill being pretty broadly takeable, and Sharp Barbs being decently desirable due to its path (I would think?).

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

I’d have to hop on rq to even check that its Bleed damage itself stacks

The bleed damage doesn’t stack no. So on ST, you would only refresh the periodic effect with further applications.

I edited the post(s) above, but for w/e reason, the actual link for the import code to TTM had disappeared from the initial post.

Here it is again: Code to import into the TalentTreeManager

Not sure how long it was missing, I recall adding it at first, but yeah…

[Vishamani-illidan]

@Targ-fenris

That is seriously the worst of all the covenant abilities.

not even close. any ground effect ability aka wild spirits and resonating arrow are the worst abilities in game. half the time mobs move out of it right away or tank moves during. ground effect abilities should be removed from the game forever.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Here it is again: Code to import into the TalentTreeManager

1. First, I love the flow to these capstones and the average point-cost of these talents.

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2. I take it the “Is Talent Pre-Filled” should have been checked on for Animal Companion?

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3. While this is the case in the original (Blizzard) version, too, it’s kinda of annoying that One with the Pack is literally just a 50% efficiency Wild Call… (20%/pt for WC; 10%/pt for OwtP).

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4. Why constrain Bloodseeker’s KC reset to when Beast Cleave is active?
   An alternative:

   Targets struck by Kill Command, also start bleed for Physical damage over 9 sec, for a total of (45% of Attack Power) Bleed damage.

   While Bloodseeker is already active on a target, Kill Command will instead consume its Bloodseeker’s duration on the primary target, dealing that damage instantly and giving you a 25% chance to reset its own cooldown.

   • Essentially, in ST, you therefore alternate between prep and burst KCs, but in multi-target, you can tab-target to retain the 30% reset chance indefinitely. It’s multi-target-synergetic, rather than multi-target constrained, and adds a small further element of gameplay.

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5. We’ll be pretty Focus-starved all the way til level 25 given the position of Pack Tactics. Given how vital Pack Tactics is for our playflow, it also shouldn’t look optional. I’d recommend making it baseline (via Pre-Filled Talent) or moving it to Row 2 (where it would, say, form a mid-path that likewise precedes to Wild Call).

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6. Nitpick, but, because Scent of Blood doesn’t path to anywhere that would be of use when avoiding Bestial Wrath that AMoC/Bloodshed and Dire Beast don’t path to already themselves, it makes little sense not for it to be pathed solely from the talent it’s completely dependent on, Bestial Wrath (via Barbed Wrath).

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Tanais-kilrogg

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Here it is again: Code to import into the TalentTreeManager

1. First, I love the flow to these capstones and the average point-cost of these talents.

Appreciate it.

@Tanais-kilrogg

I take it the “Is Talent Pre-Filled” should have been checked on for Animal Companion?

It’s not intended to be a part of the talent tree at all. I kept it there so that people would be able to check the tooltip for what I would like the devs to do with AC, as opposed to keeping it as a talent option.

Basically, it shouldn’t be a talent, it should be turned into a baseline effect that anyone who play Beast Mastery have access to, regardless of their chosen talents. I intend for it to work similarly to how Lone Wolf works as a baseline passive for MM on live right now, where it(AC) has no effect whenever you only play with one pet out, but if you choose to play with two pets, the AC baseline passive simply causes both those pets to deal 50% of normal damage each. And as such, if you choose to play with only one pet out, that pet deals 100% of normal damage by itself.

@Tanais-kilrogg

While this is the case in the original (Blizzard) version, too, it’s kinda of annoying that One with the Pack is literally just a 50% efficiency Wild Call… (20%/pt for WC; 10%/pt for OwtP).

From what I can tell, the devs never intended for OWTP to double the effect of Wild Call itself. The big difference here is that both of them are now available as talent options, rather than how it is on live where Wild Call is a baseline passive, and OWTP simply augments that passive effect.

In short, I wouldn’t compare OWTP to Wild Call itself, but instead compare OWTP to other talent nodes in the tree that are meant to augment/enhance the more central, key talents.

@Tanais-kilrogg

Why constrain Bloodseeker’s KC reset to when Beast Cleave is active?
An alternative:

I intended for that talent to be an AoE-version of a KC reset. To allow for a bit more burst potential. If you compare the other talents, for a ST build, you have plenty of options to either add CDR effects to KC, or talents that allow you to completely reset the CD of KC, in a somewhat reliable fasion.

Those other talents aren’t necessarily as attractive in a cleave/AoE-scenario, so I thought something like this could be a fun addition for those types of encounters. (Obviously you do have some leeway in terms of what talents to choose on both sides of the spectrum, but it’s mostly about providing multiple choices, for everyones’ preferences)

@Tanais-kilrogg

We’ll be pretty Focus-starved all the way til level 25 given the position of Pack Tactics. Given how vital Pack Tactics is for our playflow, it also shouldn’t look optional.

I thought of this as well. I eventually decided to keep it as is, much because removing Pack Tactics from that position does somewhat restrict your options for how to make your way down to Bestial Wrath, or just continue downwards in the tree.

Having said that, while I haven’t looked into every scenario for leveling, prior to level 25, would it really be that much of an issue?

@Tanais-kilrogg

Nitpick, but, because Scent of Blood doesn’t path to anywhere that would be of use even when avoiding Bestial Wrath that AMoC/Bloodshed and Dire Beast don’t path to already themselves, it makes little sense not for it to be pathed solely from the talent it’s completely dependent on, Bestial Wrath (via Barbed Wrath)

While I personally can’t imagine anyone not wanting to pick Barbed Wrath to get the CDR for Bestial Wrath, I mostly made those paths available in case there was someone who would like to make their build a bit differently. Perhaps they prefer the more static gameplay where, arguably, what is the major CD has more of a fixed uptime.

[Targ-fenris (Targ)]

Ground effect abilities can be awful in pugs. In coordinated groups - or pug groups where the tank has half a brain - they are just fine.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

It’s not intended to be a part of the talent tree at all.

I realize. But right now, one has to spend a point in order to take it.

The spec passives look to be gone with DF. If you want it for BM, it’ll be in the BM tree. If you don’t want it to cost BM players a point, you’ll want it to be “Pre-Filled”.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Having said that, while I haven’t looked into every scenario for leveling, prior to level 25, would it really be that much of an issue?

It’d depend on whether BM retains access to Steady Shot, instead of using the trade of Steady Shot for added Passive Focus regeneration (not to replace StS’s Focus Regen, which is only on MM, but simply for its place it damage over time and reduced downtime) to further differentiate the spec.

If Steady Shot is to be replaced by Cobra Shot, as in Shadowlands, then I’d say that’d feel pretty bad for levels 10-25, yeah. And so long as the talent is to be obligatory anyways, just as you’ve made Animal Companion… why hold it back for until level 25?

I could see something like that for certain specs—just because the given capacity should feel like a milestone—such as for Exploiter, Titan’s Grip / Single-Minded Fury, Berserk: Recklessness, and perhaps even Aspect of the Beast or Animal Companion—but one that’s central to the spec’s basic playflow?

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

While I personally can’t imagine anyone not wanting to pick Barbed Wrath to get the CDR for Bestial Wrath, I mostly made those paths available in case there was someone who would like to make their build a bit differently.

Right, but those paths are pure traps. You allow players to take Scent of Blood and Rylak’s/Killer Cobra without taking Bestial Wrath… but those two talents do absolutely nothing without Bestial Wrath. That’s not a pathing advantage; that’s just poor visual feedback.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Tanais-kilrogg

I realize. But right now, one has to spend a point in order to take it.

The spec passives look to be gone with DF. If you want it for BM, it’ll be in the BM tree. If you don’t want it to cost BM players a point, you’ll want it to be “Pre-Filled”

As I recall, they are in fact adding in/keeping some specific passives for certain specs.

Example:

Fire

• Hot Streak has been moved to be baseline.

It was a talent in the Fire spec tree, but was made into a baseline effect. One that only has use for Fire itself, as only that spec has access to Pyroblast/Flamestrike/Ignite. And while on the topic of mage, I don’t see Ignite in either the class tree or the spec tree, so I assume that is another Fire specific passive effect that it gets baseline?

I’m not exactly invested in the mage class though, so I might’ve misunderstood how they intend for those abilities/effects to work for the Fire spec.

@Tanais-kilrogg

It’d depend on whether BM retains access to Steady Shot, instead of using the trade of Steady Shot for added Passive Focus regeneration (not to replace StS’s Focus Regen, which is only on MM, but simply for its place it damage over time and reduced downtime) to further differentiate the spec.

If Steady Shot is to be replaced by Cobra Shot, as in Shadowlands, then I’d say that’d feel pretty bad for levels 10-25, yeah. And so long as the talent is to be obligatory anyways, just as you’ve made Animal Companion… why hold it back for until level 25?

It wouldn’t keep it no. As I recall, Steady Shot is replaced by Cobra Shot for BM, which in Shadowlands happens at level…14(?), and in Dragonflight, will happen as soon as you pick your first talent as BM(level 11).

Having said that, in my concept, you do also get access to both Wild Call, and OWTP fairly early. You can have both of those as early as level 15 and 17. And while Wild Call is a baseline passive on live right now, you don’t get it until level 24, and OWTP on live requires level 25.

Would the combination of Wild Call + OWTP be as good as 100% boost to passive Focus regen? Maybe not, but it wouldn’t be that far off in terms of overall Focus gain.

@Tanais-kilrogg

Right, but those paths are pure traps. You allow players to take Scent of Blood and Rylak’s/Killer Cobra without taking Bestial Wrath… but those two talents do absolutely nothing without Bestial Wrath. That’s not a pathing advantage; that’s just poor visual feedback

Fair enough. Though, why would you choose a talent without reading what it actually does?

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

It was a talent in the Fire spec tree, but was made into a baseline effect.

Right, but iirc, it was made baseline for the whole class. They can do that because only Fire uses its generators. That wouldn’t be true for Animal Companion, which has no trigger, so the talent would most likely be found instead as a pre-filled R1 talent or isolated talent (off to the corner, as seen on some of the in-progress versions of certain talent trees). In that way, there’s no hidden shenanigans; what you see on the spec tree is what the spec gets.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Having said that, in my concept, you do also get access to both Wild Call, and OWTP fairly early. You can have both of those as early as level 15 and 17. And while Wild Call is a baseline passive on live right now, you don’t get it until level 24, and OWTP on live requires level 25.

Would the combination of Wild Call + OWTP be as good as 100% boost to passive Focus regen? Maybe not, but it wouldn’t be that far off in terms of overall Focus gain.

Whether it’s equal, via the 20 Focus per Barbed, or not isn’t my chief concern. It’s mostly that something so foundational—simultaneously basic but also noticeable—feels like it should be the baseline and then the complicating additions should be talents. They’re the more fun and selective milestones, while the baseline Focus regeneration was literally just the compensation for losing Steady Shot upon acquiring Cobra Shot.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Fair enough. Though, why would you choose a talent without reading what it actually does?

You wouldn’t, generally, but there’s still zero affordances, only traps, for allowing AMoC and Dire Beast to path to something useless.

In the same way you wouldn’t want to avoid AMoC in pathing to a talent that has no benefit without having first taken AMoC, why would you want to open up the Bestial-Wrath-Required talents to not require Bestial Wrath?

When it’d come at no cost to remove the trap, why leave it there?

Nevermind, yes, there would technically be some cost to removing the “trap”. I was being dumb. Pathing through Scent does at least allow one to go from Dire Beast to Brutal Companion or AMoC to Wailing Arrow. It just still feels very contradictory to tree design seen elsewhere, especially since BW is obligatory regardless, and if the point were to get as many other capstones as possible diagonal from DB/AMoC you’d still just buy the other end, too, and path downward.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Tanais-kilrogg

Right, but iirc, it was made baseline for the whole class. They can do that because only Fire uses its generators.

Isn’t Hot Streak based on landing two critical strikes in a row with fire spells that deal direct/upfront damage?

So, doesn’t that mean that a non-Fire mage could, if they wanted to, take either Blast Wave/Dragon’s Breath/Meteor in the class tree, and they would def be able to trigger Hot Streak, without gaining anything from doing so.

Anyway…

@Tanais-kilrogg

It’s mostly that something so foundational—simultaneously basic but also noticeable—feels like it should be the baseline and then the complicating additions should be talents.

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind it if Pack Tactics was made baseline for BM. But I do still want something in that spot, in the tree, to preserve the pathing options.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ghorak

A quick mock-up of what your tree might look like if

• Multi-Shot were made baseline (lvl 8),
• Kill Command was made BM-specific (SV gets its own focus generator to avoid confusion),
• basic damage amps talents were trimmed,
• and then a couple talents were added for symmetry.

@ Stomp → Onrush

I like the idea of actually speccing our pets and those chosen pet skills being significant. This allows for those skills, themselves, to show once added back, instead of each pet using a generic Thunder Clap.

WIP; thematic pathing isn’t quite ideal yet. (15-minute slap-together to illustrate earlier pipedream suggestions.)

A bit more of a funnel damage / snowballing niche provided via said added talents.

https://pastebin.com/Y9whZvYM