Fair Master Looter > Personal Loot

[Maalpractice-proudmoore]

@Abendroth-zuljin

You can make your own PL guild.

you can make your own game

[Maalpractice-proudmoore]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

@Tarona-wyrmrest-accord

Did you not pay attention to the brief history lesson on what was the systems at hand?

Did you not pay attention to my arguments? People did use them, they might not have been the loudest, the most progressed, etc .BUT THEY WERE USED,

Also, some might try ML, but then get hit with the drama and nope out, thus making PLNR the king. I should not have had to state that possibility, but what do i expect when arguing with dingbats who are blinded by their bias?

ad hominem comments are not needed. You were complaining about others were you not?

[Maalpractice-proudmoore]

@Abendroth-zuljin

Sorry honey, I guess you were raised with participation trophies. If giving a trinket to the best dps makes us kill more bosses for more loot, I’m not gonna hesitate a second.

Sorry comrade, the soviet union fell.

maybe they could make the person that is ML be random each boss. That might make it more fair.

[Zothlar-argent-dawn (Zothlar)]

@Rosamoon-fairbanks

Both paladin and DK contributed to the raid, whoever gets loot is decided because of a BiS list?

Well, yes. If the DK takes a minor upgrade that would have been BIS for paladin, then when the BIS for the DK drops, the minor upgrade is vended/DE’d. If the DK passes the minor upgrade for the paladin BIS, then when the DK BIS drops you have 2 players with BIS instead of 1 and a vended item.

This is what is meant by distributing loot efficiently where it helps the raid the most.

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

@Maalpractice-proudmoore

PL no trade would eliminate drama

Actually false

[Maalpractice-proudmoore]

actually true. if nothing is tradable, there isnt much point in arguing about it, now is there?

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

Have you never met other WoW players before? There will always be something to argue and cause drama about. Forcing people into a specific loot system with no options isn’t going to all of a sudden make people nice. That’s some serious wishful thinking.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

I am surprised this thread has been going on. These trash ML threads have usually dissipated like a bad fart - like Arthas.

I guess Blizzard’s anointed Council is beating this drum. So Blizz wants to see what their subscribers might say.

I can only hope Blizz stands firm, and relegates ML to the dustbin of history.

“Be gone, ML.”

[Foossnacks-stormrage]

Exactly, some guilds definitely used to kick people for having bad gear while not giving them gear. I also wouldn’t join a guild regardless of how high they were ranked that was constantly having new people in the raid team. Benched and brought to farm content for gear to have a fair shake at being on the prog team next tier maybe. If I missed that this was going on in the guild when I was looking at them, I’d leave once it was noticed. Not that hard to leave a guild you know is going to screw you over. The only people with a secure raid spot in that situation are the LC members.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Tarona-wyrmrest-accord

If both systems are available then one will never get used

Not if we implement it, the way I suggested it:

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

@Antiman-bloodhoof

No, all you have ever shown is that ML should never nbe used in pugs, trials should accept they might not get loot , etc.

Exactly. Doesn’t Blizz have this system that reads the number of people in a certain guild or something? That should be the same system in order for ML to be activated, personally

I remember what system it is. The system that won’t give guilds achievements, unless they have a certain number of people, should be the same rule, for ML to be accessible.

ML will be greyed out, for anyone who does not meet these requirements and are stuck with PL.

Guilds cannot get raid achievements, if they don’t meet Blizz’s requirements. Same rule should be applied to ML.

[Pawzer-moon-guard]

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

Guilds cannot get raid achievements, if they don’t meet Blizz’s requirements. Same rule should be applied to ML.

“Required to join our guild for this run” Pugs or other things will be exactly how it is, forcing people to /gquit for runs. Again it doesn’t solve any of the issues in regards to trials or other guild related members. :3

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Pawzer-moon-guard

“Required to join our guild for this run” Pugs or other things will be exactly how it is, forcing people to /gquit for runs

You hold the power, don’t join their guild, if you don’t want to run with ML.

Better yet, get paid by the guild, for using you to get ML. No different then paying for a Tank or Healer, in filling PuGs.

You’re in control for how you contribute, not the Guild.

@Pawzer-moon-guard

Again it doesn’t solve any of the issues in regards to trials or other guild related members. :3

That’s between that person and the guild, not the community and the guild. To which that person holds the power to be a part of that system or not.

[Pawzer-moon-guard]

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

You hold the power, don’t join their guild,

Nah, the ‘guild market’ doesn’t work that way. As Tarona has explained many times, guilds will go with what gives them the most power and lets them get as much loot to who they want it to go to as possible. Hence, a lot of guilds will run with ML and even do ML with pugs or trials.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

No different then paying for a Tank or Healer, in filling PuGs.

Usually only happens when they don’t need gear from whatever you’re running, which guess what? Would be people that already have guilds and ran the content to BiS already.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

You’re in control for how you contribute, not the Guild.

No, guilds have more power since guilds are most of what do raids and pugs for them are the minority especially with all the difficulty splits.

@Estalayia-borean-tundra

That’s between that person and the guild, not the community and the guild. To which that person holds the power to be a part of that system or not.

Again, you people are why ML will never come back because your ‘solutions’ don’t solve any of the problems of why it was taken away and just tell people ‘lol just don’t join the guilds that do that’ is a poor argument.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Pawzer-moon-guard

Nah, the ‘guild market’ doesn’t work that way. As Tarona has explained many times, guilds will go with what gives them the most power and lets them get as much loot to who they want it to go to as possible. Hence, a lot of guilds will run with ML and even do ML with pugs or trials

Guilds only have as much power as you give them. If PuGs cower and just let guilds run the show then yes, they’ll have the power you gave them. Which is why PuGs should take the responsibility in not giving guilds the power.

@Pawzer-moon-guard

Usually only happens when they don’t need gear from whatever you’re running, which guess what? Would be people that already have guilds and ran the content to BiS already.

Keyword being “usually” and not all the time. Make guilds pay you for your time. If they don’t, don’t go. It’s not a race to get BiS, which I think is the problem, here, are people wanting to be the “first” with BiS. How shallow

@Pawzer-moon-guard

No, guilds have more power since guilds are most of what do raids and pugs for them are the minority especially with all the difficulty splits.

It’s almost as if guilds are designed for group content or something…I’ve PuG’d many raids, however, and we just chill in lower difficulties of them. I reserve the actual “hard” raids, for guilds.

@Pawzer-moon-guard

Again, you people are why ML will never come back because your ‘solutions’ don’t solve any of the problems of why it was taken away and just tell people ‘lol just don’t join the guilds that do that’ is a poor argument

It’s not a poor argument. It’s a very simple concept. If I didn’t like how a group or guild was running things, I don’t join them. This is for both PuGs and Guilds.

What’s the big hurry in getting loot?

[Jessail-terenas (Jessail)]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

I am surprised this thread has been going on. These trash ML threads have usually dissipated like a bad fart - like Arthas.

What I’m amazed at is how constrained people are being to only debating the loot systems instead of looking at the underlying issues. It’s like arguing if puke green or barf brown is better, it’s possible they both are horrible.

---

OK… so let’s step back again and ask what problem we are trying to solve?

Based on my reading of the thread the issue we’re attempting to discuss is the fair distribution of loot within a party.

What are some obstacles to that goal:

• Lack of universal utility
  • Plate can’t be used by cloth wearers etc.
  • Class locks
  • Inconsistent and non-intuitive power systems
  • trade locks
• Limited loot amounts
• Raid lockout extensions
  • Yes this belongs here because it prevents getting loot from prior bosses
  • Extending can help or hurt because it prevents re-clears
• Loot only dropping from a specific boss instead of multiple
  • ex: Tier only drops from a few bosses in the raid
  • counter point: FF14 just uses tokens instead, while the tokens are limited per week

What are some considerations?

• Does giving loot to specific players within the team benefit the team more than general rolls?
• Does a player have a right to loot just for showing up?
• Should their be enough loot so that every player can loot a boss once per lockout?
• How can loot be given higher utility so that it’s never “vendor trash?”

Thoughts

I personally think that a old school roll system would be fine with a weekly lockout would be better than both options. Teams could just have people not roll if they want to funnel loot to someone. But the decision to not roll is on each individual player. I also think that having enough for everybody to get one piece a week either through tokens or just direct loot is fine. Being stingy with loot just leads to frustration when something doesn’t drop. I’m also a huge fan of convertible tokens that anyone in the raid can use. Class locking loot just hurts the game and produces frustration particularly for lesser played specs/classes.

So yeah… my conclusion is that personal loot and master loot are both trash… and that’s where we should leave them.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Jessail-terenas

What I’m amazed at is how constrained people are being to only debating the loot systems instead of looking at the underlying issues. It’s like arguing if puke green or barf brown is better, it’s possible they both are horrible.

OK… so let’s step back again and ask what problem we are trying to solve?

I will go a step further.

Can the Pro ML people give Blizzard a good reason to bring it back?

So far, the Pro ML people have one argument - if loot drops, it belongs to the Loot Lords and they have the discretion by fiat on where the loot goes. And they want to hand out gear to the people that will help them consume content as fast as possible, so they can unsub until the next raid tier.

Where exactly is Blizzard incentivized in bringing it back? So people consume content faster? or so people finish the raid and unsub until the next tier, lol!

I am firmly in the camp that Blizzard removed ML to make gearing take longer and to stretch out the content. I hated ML for other reasons - but I am just glad it is gone, regardless of the reason.

The Pro ML people sit here and say : " the loot doesnt belong to you it belongs to the raid!"

OK… cling to that…

[Sarama-firetree]

@Maalpractice-proudmoore

maybe they could make the person that is ML be random each boss.

Gosh no. Being the ML is the most annoying role in the raid

[Sarama-firetree]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

Can the Pro ML people give Blizzard a good reason to bring it back?

It benefits the people who want to use it without negatively impacting those who choose to use PL.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

So far, the Pro ML people have one argument - if loot drops, it belongs to the Loot Lords

Replied too fast. No point if you’re starting with a biased and negative view.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

Benefits how? By helping them make content irrelevant quicker?

I dont mean the selfish Loot Lord reasons : for their personal gain and the gain of their friends, to consume content quicker, making it irrelevant, and leading to more QQing about the lack of content.

Is there an argument the Pro ML crowd can make to Blizzard that it would be good for the company to bring it back? Because it certainly seems to benefit Blizz to make loot drops random, instead of Raid Groups funneling gear to some imbalanced spec to finish content faster.

[Estalayia-borean-tundra]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

Can the Pro ML people give Blizzard a good reason to bring it back?

Never going to happen because “good” is subjective. Everytime we try, we get screamed at, called names, devalued, etc.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

So far, the Pro ML people have one argument - if loot drops, it belongs to the Loot Lords

No, it belongs to the person who’s going to benefit from it the most. This is in a guild concept, not a PuG one.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

I am firmly in the camp that Blizzard removed ML to make gearing take longer and to stretch out the content.

And, I believe they removed it to appease people like you that think “their” gear is “being stolen”/“ninja’d” when in reality, you don’t abide by that particular ML’s guidelines.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

The Pro ML people sit here and say : " the loot doesnt belong to you it belongs to the raid!"

No, I’m of the position if you’re going to raid with a guild, that took you into THEIR guild run, that the gear belongs to the guild and not you, specifically.

This is where the loot drama really boils down to.

Some are in the position of “if I kill the boss, I should have a chance to roll on loot”. While others are in the position of “what’s going to work best for the guild?”. Two totally different and conflicting ideologies.

Depending on where you sit, is going to determine your position in the debate. Those in the “if I kill the boss, I should have a chance to roll on loot” aren’t really for the guild and just for themselves, and that’s why PL benefits them more than ML would. Those in the “what’s going to work best for the guild?” are going to be more in favor for ML than PL.

I agree that PL belongs to the PuG world, while ML works best in a Guild setting. That’s where all this arguing comes from. Are you for the guild or yourself? And, there’s no shame in saying you’re for yourself.

I want both options. I don’t want PL to go away. So, there’s no reason why ML should be out of the game, entirely except to appease those that don’t care to be a team player but for themselves and that’s fine. Being selfish is not a “bad thing”. It just doesn’t mesh well in the ML system whereas PL does.