You’re point of view still results in the horde occupying and fighting over land they didn’t own. As I said, regardless of the reason behind them. Heck, even Vol’jin didn’t order the Horde out of Ashenvale as I recall.
Embrace your invader status! It’s more fun that way.
It’s not that black and white, or at least isn’t supposed to be. It’s hard to support burning a tree full of civilians, but look at theramore. Alliance were invading horde lands based on something the horde didn’t even do. The alliance are just as willing to be the badguys because they think it’s right.
I’ll gladly invade NE who bar orcs from gathering lumber based on protecting ancient trees over starving orcs.
As I recall, Alliance set up Theramore at the same time as Org was being set up. Not really invading… it’s also amusing you bring up Theramore, since Garrosh WMD’d it.
Do you really think the avg Alliance citizen is going to care about the nuances of Horde actions when citizens keep getting killed by Horde?
I think part of the problem, at least from a narrative perspective, is that the Horde is made up of those races that are traditionally monsters in most fantasy stories. Orcs and Undead in particular are hardly ever portrayed as anything other than villains or cannon fodder. While this is not always the case, and certainly not in Warcraft, it does require writers and their intended audiences to be creative in how they portray their work.
Now, for Warcraft, if the Horde is being portrayed as evil, in part or as a whole depending on the setting, it can come across as jarring for players who enjoyed the Warcraft 3 version of the Horde. In my opinion, the version of the Horde that works best in World of Warcraft is the Warcraft 3 version instead of the Warcraft 2 version where they were villains. The problem is that while this would work for the Orcs it does not work as well for the Forsaken (ie the Undead). They have never had a narrative where they were not portrayed as being either vengeance seekers or un-nuanced evil doers. If the Horde’s general narrative is to change from swinging between vengeance and evil the Forsaken need a third option.
Calia Menethil is where Blizzard seems to be attempting to add such an option but I am not certain how effective it will be. It might be better, in my opinion, to continue to have Calia but not have her be the focus of this third option but rather the catalyst for it. Develop a character within the Forsaken, preferably a character from the first generation of their characters, to take on a more heroic aspect for players to identify with.
-Blizzard
I’m not about to accept that I’ve been lied to this whole time and neither should anyone else
the fact that calia is so hated tells you something, i think they enjoy being monsters. nothing wrong with that.
At the same time org was being set up? Im a little confused by that, but the alliance invaded the barrens before the cataclysm even hit. Theramore was their entry point, and they set up a couple of bases in horde lands. There is even a force that attacks the orc starting zone.
And we can argue when the war officially started an who fired the first shot all day, but it’s not like the horde used bootybay as a port to launch an attack against stormwind.
because garrosh attacked the nelfs first.
That was twilight cultist.
cairne and the alliance believed that it was garrosh.
so… you are correct then.
This is way back in WC3. Theramore was set up at the same time by Lorderon living refugees back when Thrall and Jaina where still buddy buddy. The large majority of the citizens where loyal to Jaina and didn’t want War with the Horde. The Grimtotem also more or less where able to keep the majority of Theramore citizens inside the marsh. It was actually very few people that wanted to do any fighting with the Horde.
It wasn’t until Garrosh announced that he wanted to claim the entirety of Kalimdor as the hordes that Theramore started to react militarily. I remember as an Alliance player, none of the warstuff was at Theramore at all until Garrosh started to do his thing.
Of course Blizz could retcon all that. Wouldn’t surprise me.
Nothing wrong with that at all from a personal perspective (everyone has different things they look for in a story).
The problem comes from the execution and presentation rather than perspective. I think both would be better if Calia is kept but used to develop someone else rather being a focal point of the story herself. This would present a third option for Forsaken players to identify with and effect the rest of the Horde’s story by helping to integrate the Forsaken into a Warcraft 3 version of the Horde’s narrative.
Can we go back to the subject of threat and not about another miraculous and talented Alliance character possibly going to “save us from the skin of monsters”? Please? Thanks.
Not sure Thrall lied, so much as being super naive. He was also super naive about Garrosh… Not a great track record.
The horde forces in the barrens claim that the alliance launched a sneak attack on the crossroads and honors stand just before the cataclysm hit. The alliance had reason to believe that the horde forces attacked the NE in ashenvale, but still held peace talks at theramore that were interupted by, more twilight cultists!
Varian decided he didn’t like the horde and started the war anyways using theramore as a staging point to invade the barrens.
The alliance started that war.
Drastically changing the forsaken, or any of the horde races, to force them to fit in with the orcish horde’s ideals isn’t going to appease any forsaken fans. It’s going to make fans of the forsaken out of the non forsaken fans.
if i remember correctly the ones trying to march to war were kultirans who were creating a revolt and making people desert from theramore and remove jaina from power, in fact, that storyline is now in the game.
I’m pretty sure the war was going on before the Cataclysm hit so that doesn’t really prove anything. In Gilneas the Forsaken invaded shortly after the actual Cataclysm for example. And I’m pretty sure the Forsaken invaded during War time with the Alliance.
The Cataclysm didn’t just suddenly start a war between the two sides so an Alliance attack from Theramore presumably wasn’t the start of the war.
Right, I remember as an Alliance player dealing with the deserters. Nothing they did was sanctioned, I even killed several of them?
Yup, that was before the Cataclysm. The Forsaken where invading before the Cataclysm hit.
Yeah, before the cataclysm hit the alliance launched a surprise attack on the barrens in response to the twilight cultists attacking NE in ashenvale and portraying it as the horde.
And before that varian invaded the UC during a coup attempt and declared war on the horde. I mean, one can assume they re-opened negotiations after that, but clearly they didn’t follow through because right before the cataclysm horde and alliance forces were fighting each other.
Sylvanas arrived in time to stop garrosh from invading gilneas from the front. She wasn’t able to properly launch an attack until after the cataclysm. Gilneas had coral reefs that blocked naval entry and a giant wall.
Although that is mostly semantics and gilneas wasn’t alliance until after that anyways.