Everyone should have a path to progress to max ilvl gear, EVERYONE!

Lmao you are so disconnected from reality it’s actually cringy. People aren’t funnelling gear to a paid carry? What world do you live in?

I literally provided the definition of the phrase and you pretend to understand what it is. Yikes.

What are you talking about here? This is absolute dribble.

Returning/fresh player is not mutually exclusive from being competitive. This is sodebilitating in WoW and you are just to blind to see it. Plenty of other games allow players catch up mechanics or straight up rely on player skill then gear score. Try again.

100% dead wrong here.

You know why players buy carries? So they can get the appropriate gear to actually become competitive! Crazy Concept right? This has nothing to do with skill of the player but just a time limiting factor. Hey and guess what, another crazy concept, guilds aren’t recruiting players unless they have a relatively solid gear score, the same applies for mythic dungeons… but again your delusional idea of what gate keeping is mind blowing to say the least.

I think your just extremely upset because you don’t want an even playing field and want to continue demean new/returning players because if gives you a sense a power… and if so I truly feel sorry for you.

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The playing field is even. The rules and opportunities are the same for everyone. If you don’t or can’t play, then you simply don’t get the stuff. But you don’t want an even playing field. You want the score at the end to be the same regardless of how you play.

And as a side note, it’s really sad to scold someone for defending what they have when you want the same thing.

Reminder that the only reason Blizzard is actively gating casuals from getting top ilvl gear since Legion is because they benefit greatly from token sales via boosts/carries.

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I keep seeing that argument, but how does a boost help you get gear? And how does Blizz benefit from carries?

Why do you want high level gear?

I honestly don’t care because I don’t play retail, I’m simply stating a major flaw in current game design and how it’s literally become a p2w mechanic for new/returning players who want to compete.

Everyone I know who plays classic has the exact same sentiment too, this is why classic has had such an overwhelmingly success and why BFA is being hailed as the worst WoW expansion in the history of the game.

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Well, you’re very, very, very, very, very wrong.

And it’s absolutely ADORABLE that you flee this “unfairness” to classic, where there are almost zero catchup mechanics.

Hi. Returning player here. Got Heroic ilvl in a single day. Seems like you’re wrong.

YES!! My husband and I would both start playing a bit more regularly again if we actually had content that we could do together without having to deal with the headaches and frustration that come from having to use the LFG. Farming old raids for mounts and mogs together is fun and all, but that gets a bit tedious after a while.

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You should add another “very” to your statement, I don’t think you drove you point across enough /s

Also classic doesnt need a catch up mechanic lol. Fresh 60s can do the entirety of current content. Crafted gear is relevant, aq20 and zg can easily be pugged and get you close in ilvl.

I’m done with this thread. Too many toxic trolls defending terrible game mechanics. Enjoy your p2w game lol.

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People have always bought items/runs for both gold and cash.

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“Toxic”: Codeword used to describe people saying things I don’t like but am unable to refute.

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That’s the risk you take in PVP.

In BFA folks can get normal raid gear from Emissaries and close to mythc from visions. That’s pretty rewarding for the effort put in and not having to deal with anyone else.

The dungeon progression is clear and easy: normal - heroic - M0 - M+. Then you have LFR to be your intro to the raids. And on top of that there’s a guild and community finder right in the game to help people find some buds to do it all with. How much more facilitating do they need?

You can be geared enough to do heroic raid and mid-level M+ without doing any group content. And the group content you say they can’t get into is intended to be done in organized groups.

True!

That’s not on Blizz to address.

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well, its not if they want to hemorrhage subs. Youre absolutely right. I want it to be absolutely clear: I dont believe there is a right answer. You can believe that the best game is the game developed for 100,000 players. Why not? One cluster, all active, all engaged, all pushing the same goal… why not (it comes with obvious consequences though, obviously - and so long as you recognise them, i am with you). You could also believe that the correct path is embracing the MMORPG universe with multiple paths of progression because the DRIVING force is avatar permanence. Im on your side too.

I just want people to actually deal with the real and genuine forces and offer constructive criticism acknowledging the basic reality of money, how to get it, and how to spend it to get more of it. Thats it. Im a pure goblin.

ETA: Someone posted this above: This game is VERY CLEAR about the progression path… [the wonder is, why all players dont follow it]. I mean, every step is basically outlined. Its not a failure of the game for communicating it. But they dont. So what’s happening? And despite this looking like a really stupid question, its in fact really important. Because it suggests that players dont find that path rewarding for reasons outside of our expectations (no matter how much carrot or stick we use - they dont engage with it - so they play this game for another reason… which means they enjoy it for another reason… which means we can design content for them around that reason).

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Why does it matter? It’s a game full of options, if people don’t want to follow that path, they don’t have to. That’s why so many people like this game.

(If the earlier part of the post was meant to be a reply to me, I have no idea what you’re trying to say with it.)

i really wanted to say “thanks for engaging the point”.

But i guess i should explain…

Ask yourself this one question: why dont they?
Follow up question: How can we encourage them to do so?

If you answered laziness, or any other epithet perhaps ask yourself ‘is this impactful to the wider game?’ Why, given a very clear (almost blindingly clear) progression path, are they not engaging with it? Its a huge question that points to the future of the game. Seriously, dont just fall into the stereotypical answers. Ask, with all sincerity, why this game is hemorrhaging subs (while ff14 is growing - maybe an aside; though its probably not), and what design decisions lead to this (and how they can be improved to make the game cater to multiple play styles as it once did? (though you may believe that in 2004 it really was lightning in a bottle and of course it should decline)).

But if you think the game has something special… perhaps engage with why it turns off so many players? (or maybe doesnt… perhaps you also agree that mmo’s are niche and have lost their value, and that perhaps wow needs to just find its audience amongst the wide-spread gamer community. And if that means 1,000,000 subs, so be-it). Now explain to atvi why thats a good thing…

Or, if you genuinely want to be constructive, how wow can recapture those players. I mean, you dont need to. Genuinely. This game SHOULD fill a niche (given it is the absolute BEST at what it does in the mmo market). Perhaps it only needs 1,000,000-2,000,000 subs to do that and cater to it. And though it will cost the game financially (because of course it will), thats less resources devoted to expanding the game outside of its core audience.

Why cant that be a solution?

I don’t think you can. It’s like with unemployment. No matter how good the economy is, there are always some people who can’t or won’t get a job. The game has bent over backwards over the last several xpacs to make it as simple as possible to step into raiding, and some people simply do not want to.

Also, my position has always been that the “casuals” were more engaged back in the day because “casual” content was relevant and mostly challenging even if it was lower level stuff. Today, there is only two strata of gear. EZ Epicz obtained via typically quick and easy content, and high level raid gear. Back in the day the gear ran the gamut from people in end game raid gear to people in blues. It made all those levels of gear valid to some degree and it kept a lot of the content in the game functional for most of the xpac. Allowing you to skip over all that in the name of catching up guts all that content and makes WoW into a game whose endgame, for all intents and purposes, is just the one raid.

Because they don’t want to?

Why should we? The avenue to do so is clear and available to all. They can choose to go down bit or not.

It’s old AF, there are a ton of options for gamers, and a lot of the OG players have aged out. It wasn’t going to stay 10M people forever.

Make a fun game that’s not just “how long can we get you to play” would be my general advice, though it’s not particularly focused on bringing anyone back. The leadership needs to make the game that they feel passionate about, and if that’s something only 50k people want to play, so be it.

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I absolutely agree. This game SHOULD cater to its audience. But i expect there are genuine realities at play like job losses, budget cuts and funding on the line. This expansion is a hail mary.

Hang on, let me explain.

Vanilla to TBC was guided by ‘the donut’.
The objective was to bring players from the casual base into the yummy jammy core where the interesting stuff happens. Id argue, this is exactly the predicament of modern wow and if it would just look to its past, it might save the game, but as you say, its a dead and dying game and perhaps it just needs 50K core players to keep it on life support.

Around wotlk, the design philosophy completely transitioned. It went from the donut to the 15 minute hero. I remember them at the time explicitly talking about it. You get home at lunch, you want to fire up some wow… maybe run a bg, maybe heal a dungeon… this was the experience. In and out, zero commitment. Do some dailies… run a heroic… play some arena.

The next big change was… around wod, wasnt it? E-sports.

The ladder. Progression, progression, progression. Youre not just raiding. Youre competing. The game is now stratifying you. Everyone can figure out their place. This game is now competitive.

And here we are. SLs is the end of the third era and moving into the next era. Its easy to slip into a kind of inevitability (all is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds), but perhaps the game doesnt have to be in terminal decline. At its core, i think its a great game. I think the community kind of sucks. But i think the game is really good. Its in another transitional phase, so perhaps we shouldnt be accusing one another of [insert pejorative] and instead be looking at how we might make this game a titan of the genre again appealing to multiple play styles. All it needs is LITERALLY the tiniest of compromises.

Sorry, im thinking out loud The point is, this game is kind of awesome, but it has real issues (and we shouldnt pretend they dont exist). And they need to be addressed. Ralph believes gear is a big one (i also believe gear should overlap the various spheres if we’re going to get anywhere), but for me, the problem is… well, the playerbase. Theyre kind of demanding. Theyve played this game for a long time (the average age of the wow player follows the line of the age of the game to an alarming degree). So its understandable they have high expectations. But… are there ways around this perhaps to encourage new or returning players to stick around? Im kind of an optimist here. We dont need to shower them with gear to keep them invested. Instead we need to re-evaluate what the ‘core’ is. And look at ways we can widen access to this through the (already designed) current systems of the game.

As a pure hypothesis: Lets look at Mythic dungeons. At high keys OF COURSE you need to select your team. But at lower keys… what if you put it on the dungeon finder? What are the negatives? Some trolling? Afking? Sure, but most people would still do the thing properly. Theyd learn the mechanics, theyd learn the skips and shortcuts… and they’d learn the rhythm and expectation. Put 3 mythic dungeons on LFD and you have a turbo elevator from the casual game to the real end game. At that point, what is the difference (once youve spent a decent amount of time playing LFD) from running a 3 key on lfr and hosting your own key on LFG? NONE. NONE at all. Once you understand the dungeon and affixes, why wouldnt you make your own group for a level or two above? Youve spent time in that dungeon. You understand the fights, you grasp the pace, you have a series of techniques to beat the time. You also have some sense of the difficulty curve. Why not, then, list your own group and be responsible for it?

Or Flex. As it existed in panda. Keep it on LFG if you like. But breaking a raid into wings on normal give folks looking to progress a foothold on the weekend when people are literally looking for anyone to help them clear (i was a recipient of panda flex so i know theyll take anyone eventually). Again, you have a real taste of the ACTUAL mechanics (not just a hall and mirrors light show). Its a bridge between the casual game and the end game. Normal and flex should coexist. Normal = guild; flex = wings. Same level, just different mechanisms. Its a softening of the boundaries encouraging take-up. How can that not be a good thing? Those flex raiders might even find normal or heroic raiders looking for quality players to deal with the dearth of players given the collapse of subs to 50K.

These are avenues to move players from the casual game to the hardcore game and KEEP their subs because they see the value in progression (instead of a massive psychological wall). Perhaps then, the game can have its cake and eat it?

And look at that. I solved the three competing interests. Rewards stay as they are (with only minor modification - limited overlap). Casuals have a progression avenue free from judgement in the trial phase of group content, and blizzard recreate the donut which has been lost since TBC.

I still havent fixed absolute casuals mind you, so two words: Crafting/housing. Engage them with the economy. Make patterns mean something. The death of this game isnt remotely inevitable. But casual or hardcore alike it really feels like many of you want it dead. Perhaps you need to be a touch less nihilistic.

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