Essences Feedback - Multiple Role Essences


Would love answers to both of these

So this Essence got a lot of flak early in PTR for procing a single Army Ghoul that either died by the time he got out of the ground, or in the first build didn’t die at all.
The current tuning of 2 ghouls for 19 seconds feels better for the sole reason: It now procs a Magus of Dead if you have that trait, and increases the value of Last Surprise trait by also exploding at the end of their duration.

Question: Is it intended that this Essence is so affected by Azerite Traits?
The presence of Azerite Trait swings this Essence from feeling extemely meh and undertuned at 2 Ghouls, to feeling pretty good if you have Magus traits on your gear.

Second Question: What’s the proc rate on this effect?
I had a few Proving Ground runs when it only proced once on the last wave, or had 2 or 3 procs within a very short window. Felt very swingy.


Yeah no thanks, I’d never choose that talent to begin with. Change it back to the fortifiying brew. A 7min CD is not fun and a tank is meant to absorb hits not DPS. You guys complained about tanks doing too much damage in legion and nerfed that into the ground now you’re trying to push half blanked DPS talents on us that in the monks case amount to a crippled BM pet with aggro issues.

That stupid ox it going to cause more issues randomly spawning and pulling stuff or messing up mob position than it’s pathetic 500dps is worth. Fortifiying brew CD reduction gives a brew master easier access to an oh crap button thankfully that didn’t get nerfed but with this added effect I won’t be using this essence. Not worth it.

You want it to be noticable when it goes off? Have it trigger guard or a greater essence of the Ox. Brew rolls through damage with stagger so often anyway it’ll be a nice little surprise to smooth out healing and at 25/35% of the true effect won’t be a massive gain anyway with mobs swinging 40k+ autos.


Ya, having perfection proc rapture for disc is almost useless. Fiend would be better, not as powerful compared to other classes but at least it will always have some benefit.

(Ymira) #51

Mind giving blood dks dancing rune weapon?

(Honork) #52

First of all, Conflict and Strife is a super cool essence. I’ve seen a lot of people who were really excited to see what talent their spec got, and once they were “revealed” (even though I know they’re still being iterated on), people were excited to theorycraft how best to take advantage of them.

Some people will be disappointed if their spec gets a utility ability instead of a DPS/HPS one, but I think it’s fine. If you don’t like the essence, there are other options, and if you find a use for your utility ability (some of which are totally broken, like Survival Tactics), great.

Having said that, I wouldn’t mind either the Hawk or Basilisk for BM. Survival should keep Survival Tactics (since they don’t even have any DPS-increasing talents, and they could use some unique utility to distinguish them from other melee); MM has one or two interesting DPS-increasing talents, too.

If you want to compensate classes who get utility abilities, you could give them another vers proc attached to the major or something. The essence might still not be “optimal”, but at least they’ll feel a little less bad when they take a utility ability for the sake of the group.

(Rivenblade) #53

Dancing rune weapon would actually be nice!

  • Conflict and Strife

I love the idea of having access to Hot Trub from this. It fills a gap where BrM is currently lacking (damage). Others have brought up the current issues it has with AoE damage not splitting, but outside of that I think it seems fine because of the cap on 20% of HP.

If the cap didn’t exist, it’d incentivize players to take extra damage to get bigger purifies. As-is you need such a low amount of Stagger to hit the cap that there is not really a point to taking extra damage intentionally, but you still have to be mindful of not purifying when you have low staggered damage.

  • Vision of Perfection

Getting angry dave is a huge boost to this essence, again filling a niche where BrM is currently lacking. However, I am concerned about his taunt. While this doesn’t work on raid bosses, it does work on adds, on dungeon bosses, and on trash in dungeons.

Think about the 2nd boss in Shrine. If angry dave spawns behind the boss, taunts it, and points the cleave at your group it can easily wipe you. This is a major feels-bad. Many trash mobs in M+ have frontals that need to be pointed away from the group, so just making dungeon bosses immune to pet taunts won’t solve it.

I would rather see either:

  1. Invoke Niuzao from VoP procs can’t taunt, or
  2. Invoke Niuzao can no longer taunt, or
  3. Invoke Niuzao becomes a proper temporary pet (instead of a “totem” kind of thing), with Taunt on its bars but not auto-cast. This would have the added bonus of fixing the wonky interaction between Black Ox Statue and Invoke Niuzao (if you have one up, and summon the other, the first one despawns because they use the same totem slot).

The ability for niuzao to taunt is something that i haven’t used since hitting level cap the first time on my monk. It was situationally useful in leveling pre-7.2 because several quest elites were incredibly overtuned. This hasn’t been an issue recently, so I’m skeptical of Invoke Niuzao’s taunt having any real use.

(Bull) #55
  • Conflict and Strife

For Vengeance Clensed by Flame is taken in pvp because of the amount of magical effects in pvp. By offering an option to have it in pve, it wont be taken simply because it is not needed. I would suggest giving us Jagged Spikes, which is something more in line to what BM is getting with Hot Trub. (it is also more fun)

(Terrorsong) #56

Please allow all essences to be usable and not locked based on selected spec. Being able to use say a DPS essence while using a tank spec will open up different build variations, which is missing in BFA.


I actually really enjoy the new essence change to Vision of Perfection for Guardian Druids. It provides hope, in my opinion, for becoming a more viable spec, at least in Mythic Plus and even Raids. Albeit being RNG, its still better than nothing.
Although, the proc rate seems a little wonky. It either procs a lot in a short amount of time, or none in a long period of time. I just wish it was a little more consistent. Overall, great change, please keep this one in!!!

(Ryeshot) #58

Crucible of Flame:
The minor effect is both underwhelming and underpowered, considering this is a solely single target essence. The stacking effect is nearly irrelevant since it does not occur frequently enough due to the proc rate of the effect and the change from the minor no longer triggering when the major active is used. Bring back the old minor of crit and % damage DoT, have it apply on major active, and shift the damage budget of the major effect. Crucible should be a nuke to the face, but since nearly half of its damage budget is a DoT this intended effect is not the happening.


Conflict and Strife — Hot Trub

Please tune Hot Trub properly so we can keep it!

I recognize that Hot Trub may not be the final intended trait for Brewmaster’s Conflict and Strife essence. However, I echo paoanii in saying that this is the most excited I’ve been about playing BrM recently, and this is the most excited I’ve seen the community in a long time. It’s been really great to see and to be a part of. Please let us keep this!

For context, I’d like to acknowledge its flaws. The trait is completely broken in AOE right now, and we know that it’s desperately in need of tuning. It’s reasonable albeit strong in single target, but has the potential to scale out of control in AOE. This will be amplified by how comparatively easy it will be to get high-value purifies on a larger pull, which will result in even higher AOE damage — you get the point. Additionally, as other commenters have mentioned, Hot Trub definitely has room for some niche degenerate gameplay, where players will seek out unnecessary damage in order to cap out the per-cast damage. It‘s a trait that will need some tuning and other attention, that’s for sure.

However, despite its issues, there is one important reason I’d like to see it stay: it provides some much-needed player feedback.

Stagger is unintuitive, and the brewmaster community has historically spent a lot of time and effort teaching new players how to properly manage brews and the stagger pool — we have an entire guide series dedicated to stagger. Part of the reason the community has struggled with this so much as a whole is because there isn’t any direct, immediate feedback to a Purifying Brew cast. Due to the way stagger helps to “muffle” incoming damage, it can be difficult to tell exactly why your health is dropping; it could be high incoming new damage, or it could be a large stagger pool, or healers could simply be stressed and letting the tank drop in favor of raid healing. Currently, the impact of a really good purify is easier to see in logs than in-game. Healers may even be more aware of high stagger than the brewmaster player.

As a community, we’ve developed a number of tools to help analyze stagger both in combat with weakauras and addons, and post-combat via logs. But one of the major reasons we’ve had to do this is to compensate for the lack of innate, in-game feedback. When you press Ironfur or SotR, you see you take less damage. When you press Death Strike, you heal. These are immediate and visible. When you press Purifying Brew, you… bleed to death more slowly.

In Legion, we had Gai Plin’s Soothing Sash to act as feedback; if you got a really high value purify off, you’d see a really big incoming heal. Unfortunately, Gai Plin was never a default pick for most players (although it was used situationally), so it never saw the widespread usage necessary for a good teaching tool. If Hot Trub goes live, it’s likely that it will be the default pick, which makes it perfectly suited for this job.

Rather than bleeding to death a bit more slowly, which may be disguised by changes in healer throughout or incoming damage patterns, players will be able to see the value of their purifies reflected as damage dealt. Since the highest Hot Trub damage is also the maximum damage removed, players will get immediate feedback on the quality of their brew management. I think that’s really cool, and I think it’ll go a long way towards making BrM more friendly for novices.

Plus, Hot Trub is just plain fun!

(Arceval) #60

From a Guardian M+ perspective on Vision of Perfection: Right now Incarnation as a talent has no Azerite traits associated with it. When this proc goes off we will most likely be spamming Mangle or Thrash depending on number of targets and our Azerite traits. Mangle’s Azerite trait doesn’t actually do anything when spamming Mangle, as Mangle doesn’t have a chance to proc Gore. Thrash’s Azerite trait is permanently capped when you are 4+ targets regardless. So neither of these synergize with a proc Incarnation in any way. We do get additional Rage generation and possibly more with talents, which has some value, but offensively this is a mediocre benefit. The reduced cooldown on Survival Instincts doesn’t offer much either.

Contrasted with Avatar from Prot Warriors, which has talents, Azerite traits and synergy with Thunderclap that sees this as a rather major direct dps increase. Paladins are seeing similar improvements from Avenging Wrath as this essences’s benefit.

I am not familiar enough with Monk or Demon Hunter tanks to argue one way or another, but I have heard they are in a similar situation where their cooldown per doesn’t really seem valuable.

I don’t see a situation from a Mythic+ perspective where this isn’t the rich getting richer, the most represented, most durable and strongest are getting significantly more benefit out of this essence than those on the weaker end of the spectrum.

I feel like this essence is a giant red flag that signals more has to be done to bring the tanks in line together. Under no circumstance do I think it alright to tear down Warriors and Paladins that are performing well and have a decent build for M+ to Bear’s level, as its a pretty awful level right now.

I don’t think the fix is in the Essence, as we need a proper cooldown to use here and a well developed Azerite system around it. The only answer I can see here is to bring back Rage of the Sleeper/Berserk, likely replacing Barkskin to keep the defensive cooldown economy intact, and build from here.


So not only did I make a bug report on the PTR, but I will also post one here. Previous iterations of the PTR had the essence “Vision of Perfection” procing the BM Hunter ability Aspect of the Wild, which (when traited with Primal Instincts) gave it the additive mastery bonus per trait for a few seconds. In the current iteration of PTR we have “Vision of Perfection” procing Aspect of the Wild WITHOUT the mastery bonus from Primal Instincts. This seems like a fairly large bug considering the fact that with my Paladin I have the trait Avenger’s Might. I can even stack multiple Avenger’s Mights for an additive bonus. With “Vision of Perfection” procing I STILL get the mastery bonus with the trait. Both of these traits do the same thing; both give mastery upon using their respective abilities. Either this is a glaring issue taking it away from BM Hunter and letting it remain on Paladin, or this is a major error in the current PTR coding. Given how the traits line up with both of these respective classes from a DPS stand point this seems like an oversight. Avenger’s Might is one of Ret Paladins BIS traits and they stack it, but Primal Instincts is BM Hunters’ actual BIS trait. It takes Aspect of the Wild from a mediocre cooldown to a major one, and without the mastery procing alongside Aspect, the essence is practically useless.

(Bull) #63

VDH - Majors

Conflict and Strife - Why would I use this over another essence when the healer can dispel me

Crucible of Flame - Unless it is buffed I can’t see people taking this for the damage, and outside of trash pulls the heal is pretty weak with a long cd.

Lucid Dreams - Pain is not a high priority for VDH, it is something we dump when we have nothing else to push.

Ripple in Space - Demonic Leap already does this, so we would only take for the 10% DR, which we wont because it is only 10%.

Vision of Perfection - This is basically gluttony, a talent we already have. It might be good because all the others are not worth taking, but it is not exciting.

World Vien Resonance - It gives us mainstat if we stay within 12 yards. Not something to get excited about, but maybe it will sim well (I hope not though, really boring)

As it is VDH Major Essences (including the tank ones) do not really interact with our kit, they have no real effects on our rotation, and none really fill the holes that were created when you took away our artifact weapons. We still have low uptime on our defensives, are very spikey, and do not have talent choices.

(Elehehe) #64

Memory of Lucid Dreams passive seems not to proc enough to benefit from it? Tested on ele, seemed to proc once a minute, refunding half an earthshock.

Conflict and Strife procs without you doing anything (in proving grounds)

(Jape) #65

Lucid Dreams really changes a lot based on how often you hit spenders. I can easily manage 4ppm with some varied builds.

(Elehehe) #66

I see. Maybe it should be tuned with the cost of the spender scaling the proc chance? Don’t know much about other classes

(Nimox) #67

A question we have seen come up in a few places regarding the Minor effect of Memory of Lucid Dreams that warrants some clarification:

If you use an ability like Templar’s Verdict which consumes 3 Holy Power, or Unstable Affliction consuming 1 Soul Shard, how is a 50% refund handled?

There’s no concept of half of a Holy Power, or half of a non-Destruction Warlock Soul Shard. For things that don’t cleanly have a 50% value we can refund, any partial resources are saved and granted to you when they accumulate up to a whole. Templar’s Verdict will refund 2 Holy Power, or 1 Holy Power, alternating. Unstable Affliction will refund 1 full Soul Shard every other time the proc occurs.

(Metrohaha) #68

Very interesting, thanks for clarifying! I was wondering that too, but didn’t expect there be an elegant solution like this.