Enhancement Shaman PTR Changes


(Dedaru) #161
So their idea of changing our spec is making our less used talents cranked up and nerfing the one's we use exclusively, that it will make up for the fact that our Talents are practically useless?

We still have to choose between our gap closer (Feral Lunge) and Ancestral Guidance (Shaman's version of Cheat Death). Why not make Feral Lunge baseline for Enhancement?

We still only have one damage reduction; Astral Shift. The only saving grace is we can use a healing spell, but when we do that it triggers our GCD and completely screws our DPS. Luckily, I have a small safety net as a Draenei having to use Gift of the Naaru to simply buffer the damage and treat it like a small damage shield. (Also Brush It Off for Kul Tirans will be used like this too, the bonus Versatility and the small self-heal)

They buffed one of the totems in Totem Mastery but that doesn't make it useful, it doesn't do anything meaningful for us in this spec.

I will still play in 8.1 to see if anything works out with these new damages, but they seriously need to look at the talents and look at what a lot of the well-known testers were talking about and seriously take a look at their suggestions.

(Mirrass) #162
*Grabs pitchfork and torch!!*

Alright I have sat on this since last night and have tried my darndest to keep this constructive and kind. And that last part is the hardest.

1st Could someone in the dev team explain what we waited since beta for? There is more coming RIGHT? This can't be the major rework you promised us when you ran out of time to correct enhancement after ignoring our feedback on the beta forums for months (don't pretend it never happened I contributed to that thread I know it was a thing). You then promised us to wait till 8.1 so we did. Here we are and we get......talent hotfixes? REALLY? What needed this long of a wait?

These changes do not actually fix most of the problems of the spec T_T. RNG still determines how you land on the charts. The talents will still be cookie cutter build just maybe different shaped cookies but it is just going to be based off of the new damage sim. How the community views hance will not change with this either. We are still lamer versions of warrior and sub rogue. Most abilities feel limp compared to how front loaded we are on stormstrike.

I believe between these 2 is why most shaman are being rather rioty on this thread its just the last straw for many of us. 12 years of playing enhance and I have to decide between keeping on trucking (ugh), rerolling (T_T), or unsubbing (starting to sound enticing).

3rd the part where I stop whining. Now the problem becomes what do we want/how do you fix the problems. I can't say I am speaking for all enhancement shaman here but one has to question what makes us unique as a spec to figure out where to go from here. Are we magic based warriors? Enhancers of our allies abilities? Somewhere in between? I would prefer going back to totems and being multipurpose I liked being able to help support the healers when damage was low and they needed to regen while still being reasonable dps and helping the rest of the raid do more damage. That is a matter up for debate, but we do need some kind of identity.
Pairing with that what is our niche? Honestly the many targets funneled into one niche isn't terrrible the only problem is we now share it with the much more versatile sub rogue who just brings more toys to the table than a shaman can. Fix the usefulness of shaman and you solve rogue hard replacing us.
The dislike of many of the talents and the cookie cutter builds are coming about mostly because they are ALL BORING! Honestly it comes down to simple math whether you want one boring passive over the other. The actives suffer from a similar problem how can FoA and Crashing storm compete with the ONLY OTHER BUTTON that feels good to hit in our entire kit that isn't named stormstrike. Even if you balance them (which even the ptr changes haven't) one still just outright feels better to hit. Between the graphic output for it being flashy and the actual output of 1 button doing a nice meaty chunk of damage it is a very cathartic thing to hit on cd. The 100 tier is going to be talked to death but yea why is ascend a talent now? It was baseline for the longest. If you want the talent tree to work the passives need to matter and the actives need to be as impactful to hit as the other options.
I would argue the overall feel of combat could use a change too we used to be all about micro managing our gcd and getting off as much as possible while we chunked away with our big slowish weapons. Now its more about just juggling the resource bar like we are a warrior and hoping whatever god of luck you ascribe to favors you that pull.

Basically I can TLDR this into 3 sentances. Why did this require waiting until 8.1 for? What makes us mechanically different than other classes? What makes us feel and play different than other classes?

(Fruk) #163
I haven't logged in in a month or two, was waiting to see if we see anything good in 8.1, and I was really looking forward to leveling a Zandalari Shaman. But these changes are just indicative of the larger communication problem that the devs have. Went ahead and cancelled my sub. FFXIV here I come.

(Arremon) #164
This is the Diablo Immortal reveal of class "reworks".

(Kalarm) #165
Ok for some more serious feedback.

First, as many as said, maelstrom need to be put back to 150. We were at 100 for a big part of legion's beta and... we had exactly this same issue of "feast or famine". The issue ended up being fixed by simply putting the spec at 150 maelstrom and buffing WF proc chance from 5% back to the original 20% chance. Strangely, BFA buffed WF proc to 25% while reducing our maelstrom cap. Which is weird because the main advantage of buffing WF proc chance is to reduce the RNG of maelstrom generation so that it is less "feast or famine". At lot of the changes done in BFA makes us gravitate towards being at full maelstrom, which does not feel good as pretty much no class wants to cap it's ressource. Why have a ressource if it's meaningless? Personally, I don't like maelstrom and the less I care about it, the happier I am... but the issue is still there and going in famine mode because of RNG sucks. Something they might want to do is make it so that whenever we get maelstrom while overflowed, it zaps a target for a certain amount of dmg per maelstrom.

As for the talents themselves, removing the maelstrom for LS, ok I can understand the point. Less generation so less capping. Strangely, both the 2 other talents generate maelstrom in some way. BF by making it available more often and making it a bit more important in the rotation because of the dmg boost. Hot hands by giving you a free cast of an ability that can translate into time to get a WF proc or SB proc.

Next row will be a simulation situation. Landslide seems great because it buff our main attack. AFAIK Landslide was already better in ST, but FW was so close to it as well as being much better in AoE situations that most people went FW. Now I could see totems becoming better because of how easy of use it is and buff both ST and AoE, as well as maelstrom generation which is an issue right now.

Now the overcharge row. Sims will tell what is stronger. If HS becomes stronger, a lot of people will use it because it is useful for both ST and AoE while OC is ST only (as well as SA of course).

As for OC itselt... I don't think reducing the CD is a smart move at all. Reducing the CD means that perhaps it will be competitive by casting it more often... Which means putting it higher in the priority, which was exactly the same issue we had in WoD pre last tier bonus. Enh was forced to use echo of the element to not waste as much SS and LL. The last tier gave us more liberty as MW could stack up to 10 instead of 5 making LB not an absolute priority. Just reducing the CD on overcharge is stepping right into the very same issue. If OC ends up much better in situations where you cast it on every CD, we will effectively be back exactly where enh was before except now it's SS that get free procs and not LL. Most people will choose another talent if they have to choose between having to perfect cast LB VS FT/HS. OC has the big disadvantage that not only do you need to watch for the CD, you gotta make sure you have 40 maelstrom. BC -> WoD only had to care about when you would have enough maelstrom, which you only used on it... The new (since legion) OC is inferior to the old MW mechanic.

Were just going full circle really. You gave us a ressource because we reached a point where we had too many priorities and procs. MW of old at least had the advantage that you would see when the proc would come. You were never really surprised of it. The only big RNG was the LL procs. I honestly thought at the end of WoD that the last tier bonus + echo of the elements would become baseline and/or that there would be changes to make the spec less chaotic. Instead, we got a rage bar...

That is what pisses me off a lot of the whole situation. I loved enh from BC to WoD (with all the issues the spec had, it was actually really fun at the end of the expansion with the tier bonus in challenge modes, which for those who dont know, lowered your ilvl to 630, which was heroic dungeon lvl). The spec got changed to full on rage bar which not everyone enjoyed because of how limiting it was. Changes were made and in the end, we didn't care all that much about our rage meter so it wasn't so bad. SS chains are fun tho and I stuck around. Now, they nerf our ressource limit and put us right back at the same issues as legion beta. Enh shams were never about being limited in what they can do. Enh was always about being self-sufficient and using our ressource (MW) to empower our abilities. You could LB as much as you wanted without any charges, same for heals or hex or chain lightning... but they were stronger with it. Yes you can still cast LB but the dmg is proportionally much, much lower than the old system. MW made us stronger, now we just can't do much without it.

(Kalarm) #166
*continuation since I wrote too much, OMG I'm so tired*

Some said that enh needed that ressource to be tuned properly. Ret paladins kept their incredibly similar system tho. Their templar's verdict is our LB, divine storm = chain lightning, blade of justice = stormstrike and judgement = lava lash. It's more complicated than that, I know, but it's incredibly similar. And I don't see why paladins could keep a system like that while enh had to get rid of maelstrom.

I mean, WoD enh really needed 2 things... To retain it's ability to get more charges of MW and something to prevent SS/LL from being wasted. SB is IMO a good idea as it pulls back focus on our main and unique ability. Lava lash, I quite frankly do not know what could of been done with it. Remove the proc and make it auto-generate 2 MW maybe? FLS + FS were not super important part of dmg so they could of stayed where they were. FLS gave us a DoT to look for and the mechanic with LL + fire nova was actually really cool. Frost shock was straight up filler. I just wish it would of been replaced by an ice melee attack of sort that would of looked cool. ice is under-represented in our spec IMO.

I would be really happy if we would be re-designed to go back closer to what we used to be. We had finally got FT weapon to be passive and legion came and went "Hey we heard you didn't like casting FT every hour so now you'll cast it every 15s"... yay... It's insane that we're getting back in the same god damn issues we had before while not being the same spec at all.

I've also never been a fan of the earth element. It's my least favourite element... If I was in the avatar: last airbender universe, I would rather be anything but an earth bender (but hey, I wouldn't say no to metal bending... which is not part of shams). So if rockbiter would go bye bye, I wouldn't cry.

(Engie) #167
Why did it take until 8.1 for simple tuning changes to our talents? Why is there nothing addressing numerous mechanical and rotation problems enhancement shamans are facing? Do you honestly expect anyone to be satisfied with these changes? This is something that could have been added in a hotfix months ago.

(Misnthropia) #168
11/10/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Omegaspirets


While I think change is good and there is obviously some effort here from blizzard to address some issues with enhancement here. Lots of changes. Why isn’t there someone at blizzard putting this much focus into Elemental?


You mean you actually want someone to do the bare minimum to justify a patch note?

(Astrae) #169
11/10/2018 07:49 PMPosted by Arremon
This is the Diablo Immortal reveal of class "reworks".


Shaman is the Diablo of classes.

(Coriaana) #170
11/10/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Inbredmule
11/10/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Coriaana
Everyone saying they're terrible right now is smoking the good stuff. GOOD Enh Shammies right now are top tier dps and in PvP they are extremely hard to kill or stop and they do a crap-ton of damage.
I really dont get these buffs, I really dont. They are already on the OP side as is, this will just put them in godmode.
All they needed was a smoothing out of their RNG. What they didnt need was damage boosts.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/thrall/coriaana#difficulty=4

You're misinformed, and frankly out of your league in this conversation. If you're trolling, it's a bad one.

Edit: Thought about it more. I'll be canceling my sub after we get cutting edge. Not dealing with this for another year+.


Haha too bad our logs aren't always public so that site gives little info...I consistently parse 80+ when I'm not handling CC, orb running, being the tank's +1 interrupt on 2nd Myth add or being in charge of knocking melee out of sphere's.
Considering I have had zero luck with weapons and only have a 365 polearm and 370 bow...I'm actually doing more than juts quite well thank you heh
Regardless...I specifically said GOOD Enh Shammies for a reason. Our guild's Enh Shammy destroys everything in sight. Try looking up Tunafiz's parses and then tell me Enh shammies are bad heh.
They have an rng problem that good players can deal with better than average or bad ones. It's not a damage problem. That's the truth.

(Fluffybop) #171
I really don't care about the shaman nerfs, I got used to it..... but can I have the old WInd fury animation? please?!!!

(Ihasprocs) #172
I went full blown casual this expansion, waiting on the promised "rework" for enh in 8.1

Check my armory... i kept my subscription active because i thought this whole maelstrom issue would be fixed... but here we go.

(Sanarc) #173
its been 1 day and still no response as to why they made the worst changes to the spec. demo changes got 2 reply's in a day.

(Turbocharged) #174
I was very active during alpha/beta. Like Legion and previous betas, the BFA beta was a disaster. Tons of great feedback and suggestions from players but everything fell apart early with Blizz communication. I honestly believe Blizz doesnt care about feedback because they already have a "vision" ( if you want to call it that ) and will do whatever they want regardless of how the actual gameplay is. Ive always through alpha and beta were just their way of testing server load and nothing else.

Ive been trying to play and level this character to 120 but I dont think Ill get there before my sub runs out. Due to the feedback and class balance issues throughout alpha/beta, I switched immediately to BM hunter and ran with that during live.

The changes they announced are something that could have been implemented in after launch and during any Tuesday reset. Id be very, very surprised if they had anything else in the works (mechanical changes) and believe this is probably the big "patch changes" Ion talked about.

Sad.

(Fugubar) #175
How about giving us Fire Nova back so we can do some decent AOE?

(Edit: And let other players see it.. It's wonderful to see 20 mobs burst into flame :)

(Theoryxtotem) #176
11/11/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Ihasprocs
I went full blown casual this expansion, waiting on the promised "rework" for enh in 8.1

Check my armory... i kept my subscription active because i thought this whole maelstrom issue would be fixed... but here we go.


I was hard for first month.. Now im casual look at my profile.

(Kenturse) #177
A complete shame. These are tweaks you can do with a hotfix and fall hopelessly short of what we were sold as a community of Shaman mains. We were specifically mentioned along with Elemental and Shadow back in June as needing fixes by Ion himself, and these changes simply could not be done through hotfixes.

And to those who would simply argue with a "quit or reroll" retort, I paid for the game and subscription with the intent of playing the character I have played since 2006. I don't want to play another class, and I don't want to quit playing the game. I want to play the class that I started this journey with, and I want him to be an accepted member of any group, regardless of difficulty.

(Ideanna) #178
I see three real possible reasons for this.

First (and i think the most likely), is that enhance is playing the way blizzard wants them too. In their opinion, the only issues we had were talents and balance. In this scenario, it does not matter how much feedback is given, no change will be made because, in their mind, were not broken.

Second, they dont know how to fix the issues. If this is the case, then they are too stubborn to admit fault and the players are right, or they just never read the forums.

Third, these are incomplete changes and they just wanted to get something out so we know we are getting some attention.

I've already rerolled with the plan of going back in 8.1, but if scenario 1 or 2 are the reality, i may just leave completely.

(Shamanette) #179
I am convinced this can't possibly be all the changes they have in store for Enhancement. I leveled an Arms Warrior and it is MILES and MILES ahead in terms of gameplay. It feels balanced, well rounded, rewarding if done right and punishing when done wrong. Enhancement lacks depth and boils down to "Press that stormstrike when it lights up" (an event over which you have ZERO agency btw). Overcapping not having real consequences is the epitome of bad design in a builder spender spec. ELEMENTAL is currently in a better position!

(Akhaust) #180
This feels like legion all over again to me. There is a popular build and they force us out of it by nerfing it and buffing some other talents. Then we get to 'choose' our fate, but they are all lackluster. I really seem to remember this exact scenario. So based on that I predict our numbers to be yet again lackluster. There is so much to love about enh shaman. Its like pure instant gratification and I love that. Heres hoping we dont have to choose between putting up numbers and the further degredation of rotation.