Enhancement Shaman PTR Changes


(Madalot) #241
come on blizz. Losing my patience.

(Notoffensive) #242
Reworking a shaman should aggro every shaman
in a 40 yard radius. It makes sense, you are actually reworking his best friend

(Ziyizgc) #243
11/11/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Madalot
Since its closer to Monday I'll re-iterate my points from the 1st page for Nimox / Lore / Blue who I daresay will get an unfair amount of blame for this. Don't shoot the messenger people!

These changes are not good enough.
That goes for Enhancement and Elemental. Can't comment on others, I don't play them.

Both of the spec's have fundamental problems. There is no benefit / buff for having this classes over a frost mage / DH / BM Hunter / Arms Warrior, etc. We're still awaiting an explanation of our Niche (which Ion Hazzikostas said each spec should have).

We also suffer from mechanical problems, With maelstrom cap and RNG on enhancement, along with elemental being not quite strong enough to be a turret, not mobile enough to be anything else (along with Echo of the elements still being a talent despite basically being a mechanical requirement for the spec)

it does NOT. I repeat, DOES NOT take 8 months of feedback since alpha to implement the fixes that have been implemented. We were told to wait until 8.1. to solve mechanical problems in one of Ion's Q&A's, WHICH HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

The community is getting tired of this. We don't just want one blue post in a blue moon. We're past that point now. It's time for either an AMA, an open discussion (with back and forth responses), or some other medium in which our feedback will be clearly heard. I've lost faith in posting feedback on the forums and hoping for the best.

Please tell the dev's to sort it out, and more precisely tell them THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH

I also expect some sort of response to at least acknowledge we've been heard. Tired of hearing nothing. A simple 'We hear you, passing it along' will suffice. Blizzard keeps talking about improving communication, time to do it.

(Kabbie) #244
11/12/2018 08:06 AMPosted by Lockmanbry
I love how blizzard is addressing issues, buffing these classes that are super bad right now AND people are still complaining lmao like gtfo

Except it's not like that at all: the issue is that enhancement doesn't play well, that there's no satisfaction in playing it. What Blizzard is doing right now is polishing a turd and hoping that people won't notice that it's crap. A spec can the absolute best on the charts, but that doesn't mean it's going to be fun.

Case in point: right now, my MM hunter's optimal single target rotation is Steady Shot until I get a Lethal Shots proc, then Aimed Shot, repeat. Two buttons because the Steady Aim azerite trait out-parses every other available option, including Arcane Shots buffed by precise shots or Rapid Fire buffed by Lethal Shots and/or every combination of the Rapid Fire Azerite traits. No other traits or rotations come even close in terms of numbers, but it isn't fun. (Never mind that MM isn't a fulfilling spec in the first place, and I'm waiting for 8.1 with bated breath just like the shaman and shadow players, but am fully expecting to stack yet another Azerite trait that will completely outpace all other options.)

The problem isn't efficiency or performance, the problem is fun. Right now, there is someone out in that office who truly believes that fun is just a buzzword when we can't actually think of any real reasons as to why a spec is good. And it's true: there's a certain piece of magic that comes together when everything connects just right, and this team doesn't have it because it's the magic spell of the world on top of the magic of art and the magic of the story on top of the magic of encounters on top of the magic of class design and it all has to come together perfectly...and it isn't.

(Evilsoul) #245
11/12/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Astrae
11/12/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Evilsoul
just hoping they actually read some of these posts for some real feedback.. if not were all doomed.


To add insult to injury, the forums are undergoing a complete overhaul tomorrow, and will be down most of the day. In the end, this entire thread will be archived and we'll have to start from scratch. Literally zero chance of a Blue chiming in.

Reassuring to know that Blizz spent more time revamping the forums than they did most classes. It's not like they even read them to begin with.


well you just shot down any faith or hope i had in this haha... fml

(Crunkenstein) #246
to me a lot of the problems stem from the rework last expansion. they changed around enhance quite a bit and got rid of many shared spells in the name if class fantasy. legion enhance didn't feel too bad though due to artifact traits, it was just very squishy. I think there should be shared spells brought back especially flame shock if no other shocks. flametongue and frostbrand back as buffs wouldn't make me mad either.

(Kalgromash) #247
I have sub till January 4th. You have until that time to show me reworks or bust. I'm not subbing for the next patches without it. I have struggled playing alts, leveling and having fun throughout this expansion other than story. The gameplay has been insanely stale and azerite gear has been the worst part. But having my specs feel unfinished or bad just takes the cake. Please do something about it. You had more than time there's no excuse.

(Terantrox) #248
11/12/2018 08:06 AMPosted by Lockmanbry
I love how blizzard is addressing issues, buffing these classes that are super bad right now AND people are still complaining lmao like gtfo


1/10 for trolling...

And in the unlikely case that you're actually serious: If you even just tried to understand what's happening here, you would realize that this is not a buff but just a talent adjustment with next to no impact on our performance...

(Ayera) #249
Given the nature of the changes, I suspect we'll all just have to wait for a new Xpac for significant changes. It's got that vibe to it.

(Éthos) #250
This may be the earliest in an expansion that I hit the cancel subscription button. With so many upcoming changes to 8.1 that will increase the overall QoL in BFA, what kept me playing was the promise of meaningful changes to Enhancement. With so many months of extremely detailed feedback about what is inherently broken with the spec, I had thought that the grievances about the spec will be fixed come the "rework".

However, despite talent balancing/tuning being important, it doesn't fix the core problem of enhancement which is that we rely so heavily on Stormbringer. The ENHANCEMENT style of play is completely lost. Flametongue weapon is used mainly to fill an open gcd or fish for more stormbringer procs rather than being a meaningful way to enhance our weapons and damage.

Other things that bother me about enh right now is our CDs, both offensive and defensive. Feral spirits deal almost 2% of our damage in fights, a 2 minute CD doing so little damage does not feel impactful at all. Astral Shift is a laughable defensive and has been discussed many times before.

Anyways, the enhancement changes were what kept me playing. Its borderline disrespectful for them to just be talent balancing after all the feedback and work so many people put into their mains. Needless to say, I have lost all interest in playing.

(Morteth) #251
11/12/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Ayera
Given the nature of the changes, I suspect we'll all just have to wait for a new Xpac for significant changes. It's got that vibe to it.


You mean like the one that just came out? Other than these changes they did nothing to enh at all. THIS was supposed to be the xpac enh got reworked.

(Exposed) #252
11/12/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Ayera
Given the nature of the changes, I suspect we'll all just have to wait for a new Xpac for significant changes. It's got that vibe to it.


Honestly I get the feeling the game is done with this expansion. Most likely you will see a mobile game announced for WoW next Blizzcon. Classic WoW will come out and something else will take the place of BFA. I honestly don't see them releasing a new expansion shortly after classic splitting the community. That's just my opinion.

You could see a "WoW 2" or a Diablo MMO which I think is somewhat unlikely. I don't think WoW is making the money it once was. They could try to capture the community again with a new Warcraft MMO or a Diablo MMO.

(Lurios) #253
I understand perfectly the frustation of the enha .. even if it is not my main class for obvious reasons I am a supporter of this spec and I'm sorry a lot for the situation in which it is located.

the changes made to the talents are a start, certainly better than the live version and we must be honest about this.

Do they solve the problems that enha has?
Unfortunately not because the problems it has are deeper than a simple buff to some talent (which could be done much earlier).

the high nature RNG of its rotation and with talents that add further RNG is often a problem because the player at this point loses control over the rotation and consequently the output depends on a conjunction of good events and no more on skill of a player.
The Rng can feel good to me, having one or more procs that have a big effect is something I like, but here the limit has passed and I hope that once and for all, this is something that the devs understand and find a solution.

These perplexities, as mentioned on the forum over and over again, have already emerged in the days of the beta and to date with the famous and much-awaited "rework" of 8.1, almost nothing has changed.

I think we all expected something more from this "rework".

What would I have expected?
1) increase of maximum malestorm
2) greater interaction with the malestrom
3) review, in addition to the damage, the mechanics of some talents
4) some skills that are currently embedded in talents, become base-line,
"ascendance or elemental spirit" are an example
5) a look at all the sector of self-healing and defense skills that are a
big problem since legion and that have never been completely resolved.

Will we see at least one of these points before the release of 8.1?
I hope so but I'm not very optimistic about it.
We missed the point in 4 months and I doubt you take it in just 3 weeks.

Good luck!

(Lurios) #254
11/12/2018 11:17 PMPosted by Exposed
11/12/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Ayera
Given the nature of the changes, I suspect we'll all just have to wait for a new Xpac for significant changes. It's got that vibe to it.


Honestly I get the feeling the game is done with this expansion. Most likely you will see a mobile game announced for WoW next Blizzcon. Classic WoW will come out and something else will take the place of BFA. I honestly don't see them releasing a new expansion shortly after classic splitting the community. That's just my opinion.

You could see a "WoW 2" or a Diablo MMO which I think is somewhat unlikely. I don't think WoW is making the money it once was. They could try to capture the community again with a new Warcraft MMO or a Diablo MMO.


In this regard, the feeling I have is as follows:

I do not think there will be any further changes to the classes, certainly not those that concern the basic mechanics of specs (like rework of fury during beta).

I do not foresee a long life of BfA will surely not have the cycle that had Legion, in fact this expansion will end with the 8.2.5 that corresponds to the output of the last raid (azashara).

After I have no idea what fate the blizz has reserved for this game, (further expansion or a wow2 or neither)
What I think is that the whole gaming system sector almost 15 years old, as valid, gave everything it could give.
Perhaps from that point of view we need something new, something different.
Of course it is something complicated to improve something that has worked with ups and downs for so long but in my opinion it is something that must be done if you want to move on.

We'll see, I just hope that with going forward it is not intended as wow for mobile.

(Zepherin) #255
Thing is, I do welcome buffs. I don't want to seem unappreciative for a numbers tune. However this doesn't even remotely affect the core issues we've been dealing with. We're constantly capped on Maelstrom during Stormstrike spam marathons and the whole resource feels like a total non-thing compared to how every other spec very much relies and works with its resource. Once the ball gets rolling half the time I completely forget Maelstrom even exists.

I agree with everyone else. Increase the Maelstrom pool, change how Stormbringer works, adjust talents. Make the spec interactive again and not just smacking Stormstrike ten times in a row while we're already resource capped. It feels bad.

I'd also like to edit to add the fact that yes, there's really no reason to take a DPS Shaman and Enhance in particular to a raid compared to other DPS specs.

(Ayera) #256
11/12/2018 11:17 PMPosted by Exposed
Honestly I get the feeling the game is done with this expansion. Most likely you will see a mobile game announced for WoW next Blizzcon. Classic WoW will come out and something else will take the place of BFA. I honestly don't see them releasing a new expansion shortly after classic splitting the community. That's just my opinion.

You could see a "WoW 2" or a Diablo MMO which I think is somewhat unlikely. I don't think WoW is making the money it once was. They could try to capture the community again with a new Warcraft MMO or a Diablo MMO.


I think WoW still generates them enough cash. I mean, didn't BfA set some sales record or something at the start? And then you have to remember the things that go with it, such as books, merchandise, esports and the like. It's probably true that WoW isn't at its peak Wrath audience, but that was around a decade ago and the landscape for Bliz, much less WoW, is quite different. Still, I think it makes enough money.

So, I think you'll see a new xpac announced at Blizzcon next year, and I think it'll follow the same pattern as it has for a while now.

And that's fine. On a lot of lvls, WoW is still cool. Where WoW is mostly failing the player base now is in its classes and specs. There's a very real disconnect between what devs and players want. Enhance shamans are a good example of it. The Legion change to maelstrom and undoing the core of the spec was done not because it was broken, but because the devs wanted it changed. Change in itself is not bad, but change for the sake of change can often lead to poor outcomes - Enhance suffers from that, to a degree. It's changes were linked to the artifact weapon, but once it was gone, and the abilities that came with it weren't transferred to the spec as a whole, it became a hollow, spammy mess that is either feast or famine, neither of which is enjoyable.

The player base doesn't really want spells pruned back, or things changed for the sake of change, or 'class fantasy' that is code for imbalance and purposeful design flaws that are meant to create niches where specs excel and others don't. What they want are interesting, diverse specs with mildly complex and fun rotations that look pretty when they play. They want to be given new stuff. They don't want to have stuff continually taken away, and complexity removed at every turn. But alas, the class design teams don't it that way, and what you end up with is the mess that you see. It must be as frustrating for the devs as it is us, for they obviously want us to enjoy what they make, but here we are.

(Madalot) #257
disgusting that we can't get a response on either forum to say they've heard this.

Blizzards !@#$ing communication is a fiasco. You call yourselves community managers but can't even let the community know if they're being heard.
Then we have the class team devs, who need to be fired.

If I were to say 'Get hit by a bus' or anything else, you'd quickly delete my comment, but can't take 5 %^-*ING SECONDS to tell us we're being heard!

Because how are we supposed to trust that we're being heard anymore? It's been 8 months. 8 WHOLE !@#$ING MONTHS and this company treats us with contempt, refusing to listen, refusing to give a %^-* and refusing to even acknowledge our feedback. These changes prove that.

Edit:
https://youtu.be/sIAGoSY8usk

(Elindril) #258
not a single blue response yet. this is sad, i think they gave up on the spec until 9.0. it will remain broken until then.

(Taunthis) #259
put lipstick on a pig...

Guess what its still a pig

(Aoyi) #260
Is it too much to just ask a developer to share their thoughts on the direction they are taking Enhancement? This post does nothing to address the issues as its just a number tuning. This change is one that should have been a hotfix months ago and is something they've done for many other classes over the launch period. We as a community are still waiting to hear what the actual enhancement changes are going to be. These simply are NOT them. They can't be because nothing listed is an actual change to the class. We have been providing feedback regarding the issues for 3/4 of a year now. Ion himself has acknowledged the problems. He said we'd have to wait for 8.1 to see the changes Blizzard has in store. You now have less than a month to do that job. We've been waiting.