End the war on solo gameplay in WoW

[Morpheia-lightbringer]

That’s what transmog runs are for.

[Deathfang-stormscale]

@Sosry-arthas

If WoW was real life I would beat the raid bosses 1v1 so I dont find raids very realistic

I dont know about that, Arthas is a pretty buff guy. Pretty sure he could beat me up and throw me out of whatever bar he is working at. Don’t hit on that bartender, sylvannas, she gets pretty uptight. I asked her for a shot and she was all “I will never ‘serve.’”

[Pyromor-shandris (Pyromor)]

Yeah,and I hated every minute of it when three rogues took out half the team before even getting into the BG.

[Brewa-hyjal]

@Demshala-myzrael

i’m really only getting that you hate other players getting the same rewards as you for doing different, or “lesser”, content.

I think you’re misunderstanding.

Nobody cares about what gear you get because it has any impact on other players (it doesn’t).

What people care about, is that getting rewards that are out of kilter with the challenges overcome to GET those rewards is bad game design.

That goes all the way to back to Gygax in the 70’s (the inventor of role-playing games).

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Morpheia-lightbringer

Devs create changes to features. Not players. They have said they take no feedback from players. Stop making things up.

Devs in interviews sometimes quote specific feedback from players to justify unpopular decisions.

Now, given the millions of active players and their diverse opinions, the devs are obviously cherry-picking feedback that suits their agenda at the time.

What’s alarming is that the feedback from typical players, and especially solo players, is always ignored despite these players making up the majority of the WoW population, all while Blizzard and content creators go on to perpetuate the myth that outdoor zone gear and Honor gear are just there for catch-up for hardcore players’ alts.

Earning “freebie” gear is all that WoW amounts to for many players, so the systems need to be better if WoW wants to thrive again.

[Sentenzà-illidan]

@Brewa-hyjal

What people care about, is that getting rewards that are out of kilter with the challenges overcome to GET those rewards is bad game design.

People keep saying this but I don’t even know if most of us care about that. I feel like a lot of folk just don’t want to feel obligated to feel unfun content like LFR or no-lifing open-world content. I don’t care if Korthia gear is “too good” as long as I can ignore it exists as a progression raider and it doesn’t have knock-on effects to alt catch-up etc.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

what did that requirement have to do with BGs?

[Brewa-hyjal]

Here, I’m gonna repost this section from Gygax’s writings that I typed up last November.
He’s the man who invented role-playing games, after all, so I think his words deserve some heed.

Okay. Here we go.

Thoughtless placement of powerful magic items has been the ruination of many a campaign. Not only does this cheapen what should be rare and precious, it gives player characters undeserved advancement and empowers them to become virtual rulers of all they survey. This is in part the fault of this writer, who deeply regrets not taking the time and space to stress repeatedly the importance of moderation. Had the whole been with an admonition to use care and logic in placement or random discovery of magic items, had the intent, meaning, and spirit of the game been more fully explained, much of the give-away aspect of such campaigns would have willingly been squelched. The sad fact is, however, that this was not done, so many campaigns are little more than a joke, something that better DM’s jape at and ridicule - rightly so - because of the foolishness of players with astronomically high levels of strength and no real playing skill. These god-like characters boast and strut about with scores of mighty magic items, artifacts, relics adorning them as if they were Christmas trees decked out with tinsel and ornaments. Not only are such “Monty Haul” games a crashing bore for most participants, they are a headache for their DMs as well, for the rules of the game do not provide anything for such play - no reasonable opponents, no rewards, nothing!

-Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master’s Guide, by Gary Gygax, Revised Edition (1979), page 92

This is not a new thing.
This is not a WoW thing.
This is not a Blizzard thing.
The reason that you do not give players rewards that are out-of-kilter with the challenge to get them is because games like that do not work in the long run.

[Pyromor-shandris (Pyromor)]

@Brewa-hyjal

Nobody cares about what gear you get because it has any impact on other players (it doesn’t).

This doesn’t sound right,if they didn’t care why the IO? So they don’t view this as a barrier? And then ,you’ll say you don’t need io to do a dungeon but yet you need the gear to do them effectively. It’s argument of circumvention.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Brewa-hyjal

What people care about, is that getting rewards that are out of kilter with the challenges overcome to GET those rewards is bad game design.

That goes all the way to back to Gygax in the 70’s (the inventor of role-playing games).

For solo and casual players, the “challenges” you speak of are not even part of the game we play. Yet somehow, the entire game is tuned around having power levels that are the rewards from those challenges.

So for solo and casual players in modern WoW, the game is broken, even by Gygax standards. We can’t play WoW like a normal RPG anymore because WoW devs and the elitists insist on removing the “solo lane” that had always quietly existed previously.

[Pyromor-shandris (Pyromor)]

That was written in 1979 ,everything changed with the time so does gaming ,you can quote him means nothing to the now generation .

[Fastrada-sisters-of-elune]

I’d like this, but I don’t go no more likes left no more! I feel lke this still kind of holds true. Skimmed the thread, but yep.

also yay AD&D

[Deathfang-stormscale]

“He said it a long time ago” doesn’t really address his argument. Its still a perfectly valid argument today.

[Wigglytüff-stormrage]

One thing that baffles me is why you’d expect to have access to tier set bonuses, of all things, if you aren’t willing to do literally any of the content that gives you that gear.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Pyromor-shandris

It’s argument of circumvention.

Elitists contradict themselves.

Solo content can’t reward gear because it isn’t difficult enough. But no, even the difficult solo challenges must only reward cosmetics or else the raiders will feel forced to do them.

Raiders physically need better gear to complete their challenges, and as a reward for succeeding. But no, solo players don’t need better gear for anything that they do because we find it easy in our high iLvl gear, and they don’t deserve better rewards for their successes.

[Toddorbert-thrall]

@Erythrae-stormrage

But the cap is high enough for it.

hmm and now we have someone saying what the cap is enough for

seriously though, what does it matter where the actual cap is in game (for soloers)?

[Pyromor-shandris (Pyromor)]

One of the first games i played with friends was Ad&D it is nothing but a dice -card game with Gm that guides you on an make believe adventure ,If you had a good guide it really fun.

[Fastrada-sisters-of-elune]

Yep. AD&D was before my time, but I play it on message boards with people that played it back when it was new, and it’s pretty damn fun. I love and value the magic lantern I got in a game of BECMI D&D more than is healthy.

[Deathfang-stormscale]

I’m not even sure what people are arguing for anymore.

I thought this started as an argument for more high-end solo content, but it occasionally feels like people want high tier drops for simply killing some world rares? That isn’t an equal amount of effort.

I am all for high end solo content with the same amount of effort as raids. That would be a blast and I would play a lot of it.

[Zenazin-wyrmrest-accord]

@Dremin-sargeras

You literally asked what islands prior.

You literally quoted me talking about island expeditions in this retort.

@Dremin-sargeras

Class Halls have a unique campaign for every class and sent you around all of Azeroth. Twelve is greater than 4

And 4 is greater than 2 that BFA/MoP had.

@Dremin-sargeras

What expansive rewards do Covenants have? A backpack?

Backpacks, toys, pets, mounts. Content that isn’t just mission tables and a story line time gated by said mission tables.

@Dremin-sargeras

They both had things to do in the overworld

I can spawn rares for myself and other players. I can teleport around zones quickly. Have a unique faction. Receive buffs for overworld. All by covenants, none of which by class halls. A class got to speak with a worgen for 35 AP compared to their 3million cost talent.

@Dremin-sargeras

You claimed SL has “vast” amounts more yet came up with 4 things, again by your own admission, other expansions had

And you dismissed it saying other xpacs had similar things. And my 4 was just a quick thought and write. Do you want me to name every little thing you can do as a solo player and not have to scape goat to group content?

@Dremin-sargeras

You seriously don’t see what a new class, race, or profession add to solo play? I spent a lot of time unlocking Allied Races, leveling them, leveling a Pandaren, exploring and questing in the new starter zones.

Do you not see how many more tools you can make or spend hours exploring options with new model detail?

@Dremin-sargeras

The whole expansion started two solo activities down compared to three of the prior expansions.

Brawlers guild is never on launch so I dunno how it started short of it. I’m upset it got cut but it is what it is.