End the war on solo gameplay in WoW

[Snozh-malganis]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

One might ask the same as you.

They could and they would be wrong.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Yeah, for the content they do SOLO, let me spell it out this way: The ones that do the group content get the gear and then use said gear in the world, same as the ones that play solo, yet the ones with the better gear can do more and get the chores done faster.

Are solo players that mad that people who do harder content get better gear because they finish their chores faster? The same chores solo players claim to enjoy and don’t have to do? Do you have any idea how bad of an argument that is?

@Antiman-bloodhoof

And there are those solo players that would jump at the chance for more challenging solo content. Things like Torghast dropping hear, preferably itemized for that content have been put forth. Torghast is one thing that can be done solo or as a group, this could easily be the challenging content for solo players, does not matter if they are solo 100% of the time or are filling in time between dungeons/raids.

Then they flat out picked the wrong game. Solo players that want difficult solo content are the main minority in this game. Most solo players don’t want that.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

The first problem is people think “solo players” only do WQs, I was a solo player for visions in BFA, was it the hardest content? no, but it provided a decent path to gear for solo players, more so if they had the skill, or research (often both) to do 4-5 mask runs solo.

What do you think solo means? Solo players refuse to do group content. It’s what makes them solo players

@Antiman-bloodhoof

The second is people thinking just because something is in game, the rewards should be handed to them. Mage Tower is/was mostly fine (maybe a few issues due to turning or bugs) but by no means should it be able to be done by everyone first time if at all. These players hide behind labels like “casual” or “solo” but more accurate terms would be: bad, lazy, impatient, etc.

And the amount of crying over mage tower was astronomical. The difficulty to get bis mythic level gear would be even harder.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

I feel the best way to deal with what solo players want would be to make things like visions and Torghast their endgame, with appropriate rewards. However, I would make it clear the kind of content the gear is made for, like PvP gear, while useable in PvE, tends to lean more towards either balance or survivability for all classes/specs, dear from solo play might be similarly itemized or have bonuses tied to the content, like if Torghast was the end game, maybe a set bonus that provided say 5% all stats while in Torghast.

PvE is PvE. I’m not carrying around even more gear sets because solo players are mad they can’t have bis gear from braindead activities.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Flexseal-thrall

I healed in both Legion and BFA, I never had trouble keeping up with the AP system for various specs, and I played casually. Shadowlands is far more challenging to multispec with IMO.

I would disagree entirely. I played all three lock specs in CN without any issue.

[Qaccy-baelgun (Qaccy)]

@Snozh-malganis

PvE is PvE. I’m not carrying around even more gear sets because solo players are mad they can’t have bis gear from braindead activities.

You’re kinda missing the side of the argument where these folks are saying they wouldn’t mind the solo content also being more difficult to accomodate better rewards…they aren’t really pushing for higher level rewards from ‘braindead’ activities.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Aelora-wyrmrest-accord

They don’t need Mythic level gear. But they should also not be limited to blue/green quest rewards only. There needs to be alternative gearing methods for people’s different time constraints.

They aren’t even close to being limited to blue and green gear. Shadowlands is literally the most solo player friendly gearing this game has ever had. This is the first time ever you don’t have to raid to get tier.

ZM literally gifts normal raid level gear.

Do you even play retail?

@Aelora-wyrmrest-accord

A person rocking 246/252 gear is not threatening the leetness of your shiny 291 if you’re pushing that content.

They already get that level of gear. Again do you even play retail because you seem extremely unaware.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Qaccy-baelgun

You’re kinda missing the side of the argument where these folks are saying they wouldn’t mind the solo content also being more difficult to accomodate better rewards…they aren’t really pushing for higher level rewards from ‘braindead’ activities.

I didn’t miss anything. They already get normal raid gear for braindead activities. The difficulty required to get heroic would be equal or harder than mage tower and mythic would be double the difficulty of mage tower. Most wouldn’t complete it.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Snozh-malganis

Are solo players that mad that people who do harder content get better gear because they finish their chores faster? The same chores solo players claim to enjoy and don’t have to do?

No, I think most are mad that ones who do the higher content complain about having to do the lower when they don’t have to.

@Snozh-malganis

Solo players that want difficult solo content are the main minority in this game. Most solo players don’t want that.

Evidence that supports this that can’t be attributed to a loud minority.

@Snozh-malganis

What do you think solo means? Solo players refuse to do group content. It’s what makes them solo players

Solo to me means doing things without others, everyone is a solo player at times. As far as the rest, who said solo content cou;d not be instanced content? As everything ever listed as group content is also, for the most part, instanced content. So could the argument not be made that instanced, not group, content is harder because it is separate from the world?

@Snozh-malganis

And the amount of crying over mage tower was astronomical.

Because of dingbats that think they should be able to do everything day one.

@Snozh-malganis

The difficulty to get bis mythic level gea

And this is where you lose thae argument as always. No one that was being reasonable said that solo/casual content should award mythic level gear, heroic would be enough.

@Snozh-malganis

PvE is PvE. I’m not carrying around even more gear sets because solo players are mad they can’t have bis gear from braindead activities.

hey doofus, ideally you would not have to carry around a different set of gear unless you were doing that content. Like if Torghast was a path to better gear and provided gear that was good for Torghast, you would not have to worry about it unless you were doing Torghast, and even then the set/s you have would be suitable for all but the highest levels of it.

[Qaccy-baelgun (Qaccy)]

It’s true that most wouldn’t complete it. However, most also don’t complete mythic raids. So IMO there’s certainly room to add some more options for solo players just based on that. Solo doesn’t necessarily need to draw the line at ‘everyone needs to be able to complete this’, does it?

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Qaccy-baelgun

Solo doesn’t necessarily need to draw the line at ‘everyone needs to be able to complete this’, does it?

Ideally, no it does not need to draw that line.

However, the ones that scream the loudest are the ones that think they should be able to complete all content of a certain degree. The reality is people need to realize they will never be able to do some things, like I know Mythic raiding beyond maybe the first few bosses is out of my reach when content is current. same with the higher tiers of M+. I don’t complain I can’t do them/ask for them to be nerfed I just work on improving and get them done when I can.

[Prasios-thrall (Prasios)]

I’d be fine with the loss of solo gearing if they didn’t make it feel required to have raid gear to do open world stuff and it not be a slog.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

No, I think most are mad that ones who do the higher content complain about having to do the lower when they don’t have to.

Actually no one has complained about doing lower content most of us have it finished already. The ones complaining are the ones who do the solo content.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Evidence that supports this that can’t be attributed to a loud minority.

Most people don’t want hard solo content. If you want hard content you generally raid in mythic or pvp. The solo community in general don’t want harder content which is why they want better gear to make it easier.

Apply a little common sense.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Solo to me means doing things without others, everyone is a solo player at times. As far as the rest, who said solo content cou;d not be instanced content? As everything ever listed as group content is also, for the most part, instanced content. So could the argument not be made that instanced, not group, content is harder because it is separate from the world?

Your definition is wrong. When looking at it from a game designers perspective people who are solo players refuse to do group content.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Qaccy-baelgun

It’s true that most wouldn’t complete it. However, most also don’t complete mythic raids. So IMO there’s certainly room to add some more options for solo players just based on that. Solo doesn’t necessarily need to draw the line at ‘everyone needs to be able to complete this’, does it?

No but to give equal reward it will have to be so hard that maybe 2-3% finish it.

But because it’s solo people will beg and beg for it to be nerfed on top of it becoming mandatory for mythic raiders to do.

If you want a solo gameplay experience go play a solo game.

[Qaccy-baelgun (Qaccy)]

Eh, agree to disagree here I suppose. ‘Hard’ content isn’t completed by a majority of the playerbase no matter where that content is located (again, mythic raids are an example here). So that’s not necessarily a strong argument for not having it in the game. If content was added based solely on how many folks complete it, mythic raids would’ve been dropped long ago and we probably wouldn’t have gotten M+ at all.

Blizz has dabbled in the area of ‘challenging solo content’ here and there, and I think some folks would like to see it expanded upon really. Myself, I don’t care if it doesn’t achieve parity with the group content (getting and being in a group is part of the ‘challenge’ for that content, as far as design is concerned), but challenge and solo aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive concepts, y’know?

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Snozh-malganis

Most people don’t want hard solo content

Back the claim up with more then anecdotal evedence.

@Snozh-malganis

If you want hard content you generally raid in mythic or pvp.

Both of which are instanced content, which can be made for group or solo of any difficulty.

@Snozh-malganis

Apply a little common sense.

My common sense tells me that most players do a range of content, world, M+, raid, PvP, etc. The actual “solo community” is quite small. The larger one is the ones that do solo content in addition to other things.

I may not be part of the general solo community, but I want harder solo content, with appropriate rewards, so I have things to do that push my limits solo when not in group content.

Again though, what is the larger factor for the difficulty? The fact it is group (as in needs more then one person to do) or the fact it is instanced: Last patch of BFA the world content was still quite easy but the visions were instanced and could be done solo or in a group and could be decently difficult, especially with the masks.

One can still refuse to do group content and still do instanced content, as it is possible to do/make hard instanced content for solo players but all group content tends to be instanced as well.

So my question is this: if the content was instanced and difficult, would one object to higher rewards from that content?

[Verminard-scarlet-crusade]

@Prasios-thrall

I’d be fine with the loss of solo gearing if they didn’t make it feel required to have raid gear to do open world stuff and it not be a slog

A big start would be to reverse scaling.

I mean if its such a great idea, why don they put it in “hard” content? Can you imagine the cries if raiders had to actually learn the fights instead of overgearing them? Casuals wanting gear to crush the world = bad, raiders wanting gear to crush raids = good?

I remember in Wrath when a skilled group proved you could clear ICC completely in dungeon blues and this was while most were complaining about the difficulty.

Raiding in blues: The Chronicles

[Snozh-malganis]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Back the claim up with more then anecdotal evedence.

I will as soon as you do.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Both of which are instanced content, which can be made for group or solo of any difficulty.

You can’t make a raid or pvp solo. You clearly haven’t raided at that level too understand the coordination needed.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

The actual “solo community” is quite small.

Which is what I said and you disagreed with me.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

The larger one is the ones that do solo content in addition to other things.

Those aren’t solo players. This isn’t a hard concept to understand.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Again though, what is the larger factor for the difficulty? The fact it is group (as in needs more then one person to do) or the fact it is instanced: Last patch of BFA the world content was still quite easy but the visions were instanced and could be done solo or in a group and could be decently difficult, especially with the masks.

The coordination needed to do
Mythic raiding.

Visions were a literal joke.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

One can still refuse to do group content and still do instanced content, as it is possible to do/make hard instanced content for solo players but all group content tends to be instanced as well.

There isn’t any hard solo content aside from mage tower. You’re not comprehending what coordination is needed.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

So my question is this: if the content was instanced and difficult, would one object to higher rewards from that content?

Again lack of coordination. The difficulty won’t be hard enough on top of the screams for nerfs.

[Snozh-malganis]

@Qaccy-baelgun

Eh, agree to disagree here I suppose. ‘Hard’ content isn’t completed by a majority of the playerbase no matter where that content is located (again, mythic raids are an example here). So that’s not necessarily a strong argument for not having it in the game. If content was added based solely on how many folks complete it, mythic raids would’ve been dropped long ago and we probably wouldn’t have gotten M+ at all.

The difference is mythic raiding has progression system.

It requires
Coordination
Player Management
Performance
Adaptability.

While not everyone will get ce a lot of people actually do partake in some form of mythic raiding.

@Qaccy-baelgun

Blizz has dabbled in the area of ‘challenging solo content’ here and there, and I think some folks would like to see it expanded upon really. Myself, I don’t care if it doesn’t achieve parity with the group content (getting and being in a group is part of the ‘challenge’ for that content, as far as design is concerned), but challenge and solo aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive concepts, y’know?

And every time it’s been a failure due to the cry’s for nerfs by subpar players.

[Verminard-scarlet-crusade]

@Snozh-malganis

bad players

Careful, that language breaks the new contract.

[Fizzybits-moon-guard]

Seems like much ado about nothing. I think WoW is geared for a variety of player types. As a full time solo player, and returning RPer, I’ve yet to experience this schism to which you are referring. Maybe it’s just time to take a beat and find something else to occupy your life for a bit. Might change your perspective. Burn out can be a real thing.

[Honeypot-moknathal]

“Bad” “lazy” “impatient”

heh

You ever think some previous top 1-10% ppl are hardcore casual/solo now because they choose to be bc they do not have the time or desire to do the same hamster wheel with a different coat of paint on it?

I wanna relax in video games. I only wanna do something hard if the reward is amazing.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Snozh-malganis

Those aren’t solo players. This isn’t a hard concept to understand.

Yet they are people that do solo comntent, why can’t more solo, even hard solo, content be added

@Snozh-malganis

The coordination needed to do
Mythic raiding.

So who said that solo content had to award mythic level gear?

@Snozh-malganis

Visions were a literal joke.

Last I checked I had the 5 mask solo feat of strength and you did not. That means I had to at least have the sense to not over pull, stay out of bad, use my sanity regen wisely, have a path that made it so I could hit all areas, preferably in a way that made it so I could save my regen for key moments and, this is the key, know how to work with my corruptions and the madness to complete. In short, they required:

@Snozh-malganis

Performance
Adaptability.

I would say coordination, but who can’t coordinate themselves and what player management is there when you only have to manage yourself. Yeah, zero mask or full groups were easy, but solo, well, not quite a joke especially with 5 masks. You call them a joke, yet if they were really that much of one why do you not have the achievment at all, let alone before I got it? Also, Visions never provided above upper tier heroic, or at best lower tier mythic. So, again, while they may have been a joke, they could have been at least as hard as the mythic “farm” bosses and still be that joke.

What you are not getting is that people want better gear from content, not mythic gear. Muythic gear should remain for the top players for raiding, just like the top PvP players should have gear that matches mythic.

Know what other content can be a “joke”? Normal raids, heroic raids, yet people would be happy if solo content provided gear equal to this. I mean World bosses are a joke yet provide upper tier normal level gear.

Instead of thinking in terms of difficulty for mythic, which I agree should provide the top PvE gear, why not look at how solo content could be made for, at most, last boss heroic gear? All your arguments seem to be focussed on the idea that “solo players want better gear means they want mythic gear”.

@Honeypot-moknathal

You ever think some previous top 1-10% ppl are hardcore casual/solo

Ever think the ones I am talking about are the ones that go into mage tower and instead of learning and working to get better go “whaaaaa, it is too hard for solo/casuals”