Elemental in 8.1


(Kabbie) #622
09/18/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Yadawia
09/18/2018 03:17 PMPosted by Lnp
Make lightning bolt be usable on the move. Ele sucks while stationary as well as being mobile. At least you can fix some of that with lightning bolt on the move.


this for crying out loud

it was such a fun thing to do

Yeah, it always puzzled me why Enhancement shaman could cast lightning bolts while moving while Elemental shaman couldn't. If shaman were able to use lightning and/or chain lightning on the move, even with a damage or cast time penalty, I'd be all over the class in a second.

(Favi) #623
Icefury changes are promising, definitely the direction of what's needed. None of the OMG utility of it's peers Surge of Power or Primal Elementalist, but it's what's required to compete with Lightning Bolt in the rotation, hopefully. It's a pathway to make 9 seconds build 50 maelstrom. If the numbers are good on Frost Shock, taking the priority position of a basic lightning bolt fully is fantastic. You're not missing the damage, you're not penalized by the economic opportunity cost.

I hope that it's duration is slightly extended (to 24 seconds?) to allow for weaving, space for a few hard casts, lava surges, flameshock refreshes, utility totem tossing. For PvP, you're setting up a burst window, sure. But for PVE, you might simply be setting up insurance to mitigate or anticipate movement, and a lot of utilitarian things are demanded during movement usually (you're not moving for the heck of it).

Only new idea is a PvP talent to allows Thunderstorm to root targets after 2-3 seconds, named Static Cling. I'm just saying it'd be a nice thing when you actually are trying to use Thunderstorm for its intended use of creating some space against melee in less-than lethal situations.

If the enemy is hurled off a cliff, and they remain stationary in the air, it could be problematic sure; the slow warrior/rogue/dh/druid/mage... you know what fine, it's a half-baked idea, every other class would just have the opportunity to come back after being lobbed off a cliff if they had 3 seconds to reassess their situation. Wily E Coyote comical, though for those that didn't. (You're darn sure I'd hope to swap blast some hapless 'ally' in my 3 seconds of thunderstorm induced meditation)

(Randomshocks) #624
So many things I'd like fixed for Elemental.

First, actually competitive damage. Not sure why Elemental has to lalways be one of the lowest dps classes.

Stormkeeper - this needs to buff chain lightning, not just lightning bolt.

Mobility - sorry, turrets aren't fun, and they aren't effective. Gust of wind back would be great, but barring that, something, anything.

Defensives - give us something to be able to survive in higher M+ keys. And no, Reincarnation is NOT a defensive.

Flame Shock needs to not have a CD, or at least have a much shorter one.

Echo of the Elements should be baseline.

More damage spread into the abilities and out of our elemental. The CD is too long for so much damage to be baked into it. Let me feel powerful, not my elemental.

(Axön) #625
40 days since last dev contact... : (

(Smoph) #626
So it's pretty much confirmed that Enhance is not getting touched for 8.1 (outside of an extremely minor aura tweak).

I'm slowly gathering gear for the ELE swap and playing it where I get the opportunity to.

Couple issues I'm coming across, some more specific than others:

1. Open World
I feel extremely vulnerable in the open world in general (Island Expeditions included). Nothing to stop enemies from just pounding away at me while I cast. No absorb like Mages or Warlocks. No Pets like Warlocks or Hunters. The build up to actually killing an enemy is much too slow; Imagine a shadow priest without void form

2. Frost Shock Base damage is too low
This comes from my experience with Explosive this week. With no instant cast abilities other than frost shock I'm basically anemic when it comes to this affix. it takes 3 frost shocks (2 if I crit) to kill a single orb. It takes more than 1 lightning bolt to kill one, and often times it's dead before the cast finishes OR I waste a few casts and it explodes anyways.

3. Mobility.
This can't be said enough. Ion confirmed that shamans just HAVE to be immobile... but why is lack of mobility consistently combined with low damage, low defenses and a slow building damage output. There are no excuses as to why this spec needs to be a water-gun turret

4. Damage viability tied to Primal Elementalist. Viability being used *loosely* since Ele is still among the weakest classes in the game. Not having this talent takes a terrible spec and makes it completely useless and it's almost a set & forget talent which is unfun.

(Icculüs) #627
So, is this all we get? Marginal dps gains (not NEARLY enough) and throwing away some of the garbage talents for marginally better ones? Why no response to baking in totem mastery and Echo? Or the actual reasons behind having a cooldown on flame shock, when exactly 1 expansion ago it was touted by blizzard devs as being antiquated and a QOL issue.

We really need a blue post describing where they actually see the spec fitting into the current game. We used to be good at burst AOE, but now we aren't. Single target has been an issue for years, as well as mobility and survivability. (Useful) utility is also extremely lacking. Ion has mentioned multiple times about specs needing to have weaknesses and offsetting strengths. Right now, ele has a ton of weaknesses, and no offsetting strengths. You can look at the 3 major areas of endgame content to see that we're sorely lacking in all 3 (raiding, mythic plus, and PvP). There is literally nothing we bring to the table that other classes don't do better. And these changes on the PTR don't fix any of it.

(Axön) #628
10/30/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Icculüs
So, is this all we get? Marginal dps gains (not NEARLY enough) and throwing away some of the garbage talents for marginally better ones? Why no response to baking in totem mastery and Echo? Or the actual reasons behind having a cooldown on flame shock, when exactly 1 expansion ago it was touted by blizzard devs as being antiquated and a QOL issue.

We really need a blue post describing where they actually see the spec fitting into the current game. We used to be good at burst AOE, but now we aren't. Single target has been an issue for years, as well as mobility and survivability. (Useful) utility is also extremely lacking. Ion has mentioned multiple times about specs needing to have weaknesses and offsetting strengths. Right now, ele has a ton of weaknesses, and no offsetting strengths. You can look at the 3 major areas of endgame content to see that we're sorely lacking in all 3 (raiding, mythic plus, and PvP). There is literally nothing we bring to the table that other classes don't do better. And these changes on the PTR don't fix any of it.

(Favi) #629
Don't know, haven't been back in a while, but the Icefury buff was something that I mathed out what felt like months ago doing a full comparison of the maelstrom economics and the damage from just the spell ratio. I really liked the playstyle during Legion, and the talent just died with the changes going into BFA. It's only one part of the playstyle however, particularly when dealing with the scaling from M+ and PvP. Recommend it and check-in after the patch after the patch? Specifics with limited echoes of "X should be baseline". Yeah, X should probably be baseline, but you think they haven't already heard that Z times now?

A root ability, that only does a root; Return of Earth Grasp Totem:
There are very limited means to create space. Thunderstorm is the only ability that attempts to assist in this and it hasn't been relevant as melee classes will reserve a gap closer. It's a simple matter for melee to approach and remain engaged; It's not even a problem to reserve a gap closer due to either the multiple charges or the plentiful availability of such abilities. Stuns will be trinket due to the Diminishing Returns on such a common CC.
Surge of Power Frost Shock seems like a bad approach to providing elemental with a root, but this is contingent upon building maelstrom, which you're not going to be able to build towards while the melee is engaged upon the shaman.

Currently, a shaman's only option then is to bundle up attempting to either heal themselves, bundle up as ghost wolf, wait for lava surge procs, and hope for outside assistance. Capacitor totem is not a reliable solution due to the ease it can be killed; you'll catch people who are unskilled in it, but it won't catch a skilled player when at most you're going to be healing, frost shocking or walking away.

The viable solution previously was Earth Grasp. It'd be nice if the Capacitor Totem cooldown reduction talent was reverted back to provide the option of having Earth Grasp, even if it replaces Capacitor Totem or Earth Bind Totem.

I'm not sure how often it's taken, but every time I've taken that talent, it only ended up sending targets into DR faster or seeming to hit their immunity. It's never been a factor that contributes to a CC chain effectively.
In M+, it was only relevant in lower keys due to the health of the mobs. In higher keys, the talent once again became worthless. My contribution in terms of adding to the CC chain, beyond the first Capacitor, was always better spent maintaining EQ's underneath the targets as best as possible.

TLDR: Capacitor Totem's Cooldown Reduction talent loses its value dramatically due to DR in group settings. A return of Earth Grasp as a talent would add variety to shaman's CC options that would not conflict with the toolkit of the group or his own. This is significant when dealing with CC chains where stuns are so prevalent.

(Keltas) #630
I just want our mastery to affect our pet.

Fire Elemental is our major cooldown and it doesn't scale with mastery whatsoever. If it either got flat damage, or could duplicate spells, it'd be in a way better place as a major cooldown. Especially since it has multiple talents dedicated to it.

It's already stupid that we are one of the only specs in the game whose mastery doesn't affect our spenders (outside of the slight maelstrom generation increase), but if they could duplicate they'd get nerfed just like all our other spells.

I'm actually surprised how little I see people mention it too. I think our pet not scaling is one of our largest dps related problems. Our mastery in general is kind of holding the whole kit hostage by bringing all the numbers down so it can fit in the kit. Plus it scales like !@#$ now that it only affects filler spells.

(Chandy) #631
I think we need the level 15 talents to set the tone of which element the shaman wants their filler to come from. Earthen rage needs to go to make room for something that is more interesting. Make echo baseline and put in its place a new talent that makes lava burst the focus if one wants big lava bursts. Buff elemental blast to become an alternative nuke for those who would rather not see a lot of damage coming from a fire spell. And replace earthen rage with a spell that focuses on nature spells (perhaps earth shock overloads and more lightning damage?)

I don't think a 'turret' class can have too many nukes. If that is what the developers want us to be then surely hard hitting lava burst, elemental blast and earth shock is not too much to ask. Every cast that a turret class gets off should be impactful.

(Prinsoph) #632
Even though our class is incomplete they're too busy balancing other classes to look at ours. If you expected any type of fix in 8.1, you're out of luck. Look forward to a "possible" fix next expansion.

Thanks blizz for ignoring us once again.

(Elementwil) #633
10/31/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Prinsoph
Even though our class is incomplete they're too busy balancing other classes to look at ours. If you expected any type of fix in 8.1, you're out of luck. Look forward to a "possible" fix next expansion.

Thanks blizz for ignoring us once again.


I'm fairly certain nobody was expecting anything in 8.1 let alone 9.0. We will never get positive design changes until a developer is hired that actually plays shaman or someone gets held at gunpoint til they code some tuning.

(Majyka) #634
10/31/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Prinsoph
Even though our class is incomplete they're too busy balancing other classes to look at ours. If you expected any type of fix in 8.1, you're out of luck. Look forward to a "possible" fix next expansion.

Thanks blizz for ignoring us once again.


Ummm, what classes have they actually been balancing? They gave the same half-baked crap to Shadow Priests, that didn't fix anything. Then moved on to destroy Frost Mages. I don't see any "balancing" going on. It's not so much that Elmental is being ignored, but more a case of the class team just completely ignoring what the players want.

(Prinsoph) #635
10/31/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Majyka
10/31/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Prinsoph
Even though our class is incomplete they're too busy balancing other classes to look at ours. If you expected any type of fix in 8.1, you're out of luck. Look forward to a "possible" fix next expansion.

Thanks blizz for ignoring us once again.


Ummm, what classes have they actually been balancing? They gave the same half-baked crap to Shadow Priests, that didn't fix anything. Then moved on to destroy Frost Mages. I don't see any "balancing" going on. It's not so much that Elmental is being ignored, but more a case of the class team just completely ignoring what the players want.


I stand corrected.

(Suhuy) #636
5 weeks until 8.1, are there any other changes for elemental or enhancement? enhance hasn't seen any changes yet, and could bare minimum use some talent balancing. for elemental I'd like to see some icefury changes. I love what it adds to the rotation but it doesn't give enough oomph to frost shock to offset the number of gcds involved. I wouldn't mind it going to 3 buffed frost shocks and either it gets more up front damage or a bigger buff to the frost shocks.

(Elehehe) #637
Just a reminder that FS cooldown sucks.

My take on it is that its low duration and cooldown forces me to stop casting regularly to reapply it, further lowering MS generation.

Also, FS shock CD not being affected by haste means its hard to get into a flow. At start of expac I could FS > 2 casts > FS > 2 casts (...) but as I gain haste there's a delay either putting me behind on refreshes or making me stop casting to wait for CD.

Also do we really have 15% chances to proc lava surge? I find myself really unlucky with procs even with 2-3 shocks up.

(Moonshayde) #638
Huge list of things that need to be fixed for Elemental. Here are a few of my top contenders:

Flame Shock needs to return to not having a CD.

Damage needs a buff (and, no, particularly on ST, Elemental is more than 2-3% behind).

Stormkeeper should also buff chain lightning damage, not just lightning bolt.

Survivability needs a massive buff. Talents like Spirit Wolf need to back in the trash. For example, Spriest Dispersion is getting buffed from 60% because that is too low for an ability that silences them and adding 50% movement speed. Then, add a talent buffing it to 90% and adding a heal. So, Spirit Wolf, also silences us, gives us a massive 20% damage resistance, but only after 4 seconds and speed increases by 20%, again needing 4 second build up. This is a joke of a talent.

Spirit Walker's grace and Earthgrab totem both need to make a comeback. (I'd prefer Gust of Wind, but I think that ship has sailed.)

Lava Burst needs a buff and Echo of the Elements needs to be baseline.

(Ehelolx) #639
Another PTR build, all we get is a new icon for surge of power. The change we truly needed.

(Kabbie) #640
Given that the blues haven't tried stepped down from that corporate ivory tower of theirs to post in two months, are you really surprised?

(Sieten) #641
11/06/2018 05:10 PMPosted by Ehelolx
Another PTR build, all we get is a new icon for surge of power. The change we truly needed.


Where?