Elemental in 8.1

(Elementwil) #602
Nerfing Storm Keeper and making the overloads on SoP RNG... Just who the hell is designing shamans and why does it seem like they're a coked out 12 year old with 2 buttons on their keyboard, [NERF] and [RNG]?

FS still has a CD, all our spells still tickle because they have to account for our, yet again, RNG mastery, and it's only getting worse every build. I just don't get it.

(Ebonstorm) #603
10/19/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Orphanchild
The more I think about it, the more Totem Mastery needs to just get deleted from the game. Something you press every two minutes, or after traveling far enough, on CD is a chore and dumb. There's absolutely 0 thought behind pressing the button outside of using a global and most times even that doesn't matter. Please remove.


Shaman drop totems. It's part of the class fantasy, has been since day one. Blizzard has gone as far as making it so you don't have to drop totems - let those of us that want to play the class the way it was intended from the first play it that way.

(Baelmjolnir) #604
10/21/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Goraxe

I have, but I can't stand the Lightning Bolt spam. It feels like vanilla all over. Cept now we aren't getting mana back from spamming it. You can look back though at least 15 pages toward the front of this thread were we said, PLZ no to Lightning Bolt and asked for a Lava Burst buff instead.

And plenty of people like the Lightning Bolt buff. You're just mad because they listened to other people than you. I agree with Blizzard and everyone else that likes it, LB should be substantial. Better than Lave Burst? Of course it shouldn't be, but that's tuning, the base concept that LB should feel like decent damage is a good one.

(Hërn) #605
Well they tuned us right back to garbage status.
Stormkeeper change: gutted.
Surge of Power: wow even more rng, no thanks.

Survivability: ignored

(Zoresh) #606
Man, this change to Surge of power feels extremely bad. I feel like with this change SoP will not be on pair with Primal elementalist.

(Madalot) #607
They actually have no !@#$ing clue do they?

(Omajarn) #608
I'd like to look at two things today, the problems created by shoving so much of our damage into lightning bolt, and overall talent balance.

Lightning Bolt Damage
Lightning Bolt has been jokingly referred to as a "wet noodle" in the past, so it's understandable that it get a bit of a bump. However, giving it such a big boost does have a few problems of its own.

1) Lightning Bolt is the least flexible ability we have. It doesn't provide any sort of mobility, cleave, burst damage, anything. The only niche it can be said to have is sustained single target (patchwerk). What that means is: While the increase might leave us pretty stable on the sim charts, it will be much less impactful in actual environments.
2) Lightning Bolt is only used on exactly one target, replaced by Chain Lightning at 2 targets (note: this is actually not true on the PTR, because of how hard LB was buffed). Meanwhile, we continue using all of the other buttons up to 4 targets (ES vs EQ is decided based on need, but EQ is the higher simming of the two).
3) Lightning Bolt is our filler. That means that any buff to it will reduce the relative value of all other rotational abilities we have, because those abilities are replacing (higher priority) a possible lightning bolt cast. This reduces the impact of playing well (using your cooldowns on cooldown, using lava surge procs quickly), and hurts the value a large number of talents that are meant to have rotational impact.
4) There will be rare situations (based on secondaries) where Lightning Bolt is stronger than Lava Burst, simply because of its much higher SP scaling.

Based on all of this, I'd recommend shifting some of the Lightning Bolt buff into Lava Burst. Lava Burst is a much more flexible skill that doesn't suffer from nearly as many of the above problems.

Obviously, I continue to push for Echo becoming baseline. A nice replacement talent would be: Path of Flame: Flame Shock damage increased by 15%. Lava Burst now hits all targets affected by Flame Shock. I would expect this talent to be the weakest in the tier on patchwerk, but to help strengthen a weakness on cleave (which is probably Ele's biggest weak spot).

Also, just building on the above, Echo and EB are both extremely weak on the PTR, largely in part due to my 3rd point on LB damage. By being talents that replace Lightning Bolts, their % increase is weaker than live (and much weaker than ER, which does not suffer from replacing LB). And, even worse, Echo is what I'd call an "untunable" talent - meaning there are currently no knobs to turn on it to bump its value up.

There's a very obvious balance problem between AfS and CTT. AfS effectively adds 25% more spenders, while CtT adds 20%. My suggestion here would be: Make CtT also increase the damage of spenders very slightly (something like 3%). This keeps AfS as the theoretical better talent, but CtT would be reliable and would enforce a "spender strength" kind of gameplay - it would be the talent to take on anything where you'd want to pool up Earth Shocks (which you can save for 2 of with CtT!) for quick target swapping.

Honestly fairly well balanced, however MotE could use a small bump, especially if any damage was shifted from LB.

(Omajarn) #609
Surge of Power's Lava Burst effect feels like a trap, it's just so incredibly weaker than the Lightning Bolt effect (and, obviously, LB's effect is always available). The only time I can think to use it is if you need your fire ele to be up every 2 minutes instead of 2.5 for some specific mechanic, but it certainly would never be the best choice for overall damage. Additionally, I'd really like to see the talent changed to "Your maelstrom spenders enhance your next spell cast within 15 seconds". This fixes a current problem with the FS effect - where you'd want to use it on cleave, but Earthquake beats ES on cleave. Finally, I'd like to see Chain Lightning added, it could have an effect like: The next chain lightning cast benefits from your full mastery. Currently each CL bounce only has a 1/3 chance to overload, so this effect could help to boost mastery on AoE (which is currently a nearly dead stat).

Icefury is another talent that suffers from Lightning Bolt being buffed so hard, because Frost Shocks will ideally be replacing Lightning Bolts in the rotation. However, that's just a tuning problem, and it seems the most recent patch has done a good job bringing it up.

Ascendance is currently extremely weak on the PTR. Shifting damage into LvB might be all that is needed here, though. I do still find ascendance extremely annoying to play with on the GCD, so I'd urge moving it back off (or providing some kind of immediate effect upon shifting). This is another "untunable" talent, like Echo, where there aren't many knobs you can turn to bump it up.

Overload Maelstrom Gen
The final thing I want to call out is the maelstrom generation of overloads. I'm not sure if it's just a bug, but ever since the buff we got to the generation of our abilities at launch, the overload effects have been off from what I'd expect.
Lightning Bolt: 8 base, 3 overload
Lava Burst: 10 base, 4 overload
Chain Lightning: 4 base, 2 overload
Icefury (PTR): 25 base, 12 overload

Note that the overload numbers did not change when LB was buffed from 6 to 8, LvB was buffed from 8 to 10, and CL was buffed from 3 to 4. That's why I'd suggest it might just be a bug - the numbers were 50% before, but were not increased when we got buffed. Also, Icefury on the PTR's overload is very close to 50%, which suggests that might be the intended value. Obviously, the tooltip is vague, so maybe these numbers are correct (I'd love some clarification on this!).

Thanks for reading yet another wall of mine :P.

(Jibbles) #610
Can we just please make it so SoP immediately procs on the next LB cast? Especially if it is only going to apply the bonus overloads on one cast of LB now. Casting ES then LB, then a buffed LB just feels super clunky.

Plus, this would allow you to pool maelstrom and cast: Stormkeeper, ES, buffed LB, (depending on overloads, you might have enough maelstrom for another ES, if not then Lava Burst), then ES and second SK buffed LB.

This would give you the best damage output with SoP and SK but it wouldn't work if you have to cast the unbuffed LB first to get the SoP buff.

(Madalot) #611
Literally hardly changes a thing.
Blizzard, wake the !@#$ up maybe?

(Jibbles) #612
Or what if we just say screw it and succumb to the RNG gods. Make High Voltage baseline and increase our mastery % a little bit. So let's say you have 60% mastery. LB overloads. You have a 30% to cause another overload. That one overloads, and it has a 15% to overload. So on, and so on.

That way we can get like 4 noodles for the cast of 1 consistently.

(Gyllneas) #613
I haven't played a tonne of Elemental (mostly play enhancement) But I feel the spec isn't too engaging right now. Also it seems like the Maelstrom generation is a tad too slow. I really feel they need to up the amount of Maelstrom your spells generate. And make the "filler" spells a little more engaging.

(Smoph) #614
I haven’t made it to the PTR to play with the changes. Can somebody tell me if the damage is there yet?

Changes are one thing, but still having no mobility, low defense AND low damage for another patch is unacceptable

(Orphanchild) #615
Any updates? Ele damage is terrible in PvP.

Also, root totem on T45 would be awesome.

Also, can something be done about the base cast time of lightning bolt/chain lightning?

Also, bring back meaningful lava bursts.

(Madalot) #616
Really had enough of this !@#$ now.

(Magmir) #617
10/24/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Madalot
Really had enough of this !@#$ now.

Have you tried not being mad? Maybe try being Chillalot?

(Hërn) #618
10/24/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Magmir
10/24/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Madalot
Really had enough of this !@#$ now.

Have you tried not being mad? Maybe try being Chillalot?

No thanks, after being ignored through Alpha and Beta and now this is prefer just being honest with myself that I'm pissed off and fed up.

(Orphanchild) #619
No updates?

Baseline earth grab totem.

Cast reduction on lightning bolt/chain lightning.

Significant increase to lava burst damage.

(Elehehe) #620
Surge of Power
Additionally, I'd really like to see the talent changed to "Your maelstrom spenders enhance your next spell cast within 15 seconds". This fixes a current problem with the FS effect - where you'd want to use it on cleave, but Earthquake beats ES on cleave(...)

I'd like this as well, as it would help make more fluid a fun rotation on PTR where you spread FS with SoP, cast your FE and go in a rotation of LvB>EQ>LvB>EQ with the occasional CL thanks to the MS generation of LvB+FE.
This works well with MotE and would make a great place to take advantage of the LvB effect of SoP, turning FE in a cleave/aoe CD.

(Mysidia) #621
10/24/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Hërn
10/24/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Magmir

Have you tried not being mad? Maybe try being Chillalot?

No thanks, after being ignored through Alpha and Beta and now this is prefer just being honest with myself that I'm pissed off and fed up.

How many expansions now has Shaman been absolute !@#$e? We've been ignored for a very, very long time. And seems that they're done with us and have moved on to priests so they can become the top spec for all three. We should just be thankful that our masters have thrown us a 10% DPS improvement when we're 60% behind in all three specs. Just make sure everything's clumped up with their "Spread out" mechanics.