Elemental in 8.1


(Wondersheep) #522
09/27/2018 03:43 AMPosted by Brodan

I'm pretty sure even they don't know. They talk a lot about making classes fun and talk a lot about "class fantasy". First of all they gave us fire elemental mount and now they say ele is lightning based lol. About spec being fun - different things are fun to different people. Why do you think I play ele? Because it was fun to me and this design they try to push is not fun as it's not ele.


Yea I don't think they know what Shaman should be either. Any of their three specs for that matter. I think that's what our #1 demand should be right now. We need to know if they actually have a vision for us.

And I know different people find different things fun; that's why I'm getting my opinion in here in case they actually read the forums. In general they only want to hear about what works, what doesn't work and why, not how they could possibly fix it. Us giving suggestions makes us feel like we're helping but the dev's egos don't let them hear us because we're "backseat designing".

So my three cents are:
    1) As a DPS Shaman I feel too slow to do any teamwork mechanics or even personal mechanics in a way that is above passable. I can't make plays with my positioning and movement. There's no reason to bring a Shaman to any fight that requires movement like Zek'Voz or G'Huun because half the classes are so superior to us in movement and the other half are tied with us.

    2) My utility isn't required for anything as long as people do mechanics like G'Huun's Gaze. Tremor Totem doesn't even allow for DPS optimization because the fear will still interrupt casts for a half second until the tremor procs. My utility is so unimportant that I feel obsolete. There are no moments of glory for DPS Shaman in a raid. Resto Shaman still have SLT which is the only thing they have to justify having a raid spot but even that isn't really usable in most Uldir fights which require the raid to be in a 5 yard spread. I wish we had something unique and also truly useful, like if Tremor Totem made the group Fear/Charm Immune so the group could still go ham and ignore a mechanic.

    3) We didn't even get our group buffs back in the expansion that supposedly did away with "bring the player not the class". They gave the group buffs back to all the classes that were already important and useful. I used to be fought over in a raid to give a group Windfury or Wrath of Air or Mana Tide. Shaman were the raid buff champions. I miss being wanted for the class I play in a party and raid instead of feeling like I'm a burden who is kept around just because I don't cause drama. I'm not saying I want those back exactly how they used to be but something that says SHAMAN BUFFS and would be enticing to a group.


For the foreseeable future I'm a new Hunter main until I get bored of their animations and quit because I only play to raid and M+ but nothing compares to Shaman's style.

(Prime) #523
I want to know what blizzard sees as strengths for elemental, because I'm struggling to think of any.

Weak mobility, weak durability, weak single target damage, strong sustained aoe?

I mean if you want elemental to be less mobile, then it should do good damage while standing still right? If you want ele to be less mobile, then it should have more passive and cooldown based defensives right? I don't get it.

Also, why did earthgrab get pruned? The BS reason they pruned gust of wind was "too similar to blink" even though we all know it wasn't. So what was earthgrab totem too similar to? Frost nova? Why do mages get everything?

What are elemental shaman supposed to be good at?

(Prime) #524
Ele was one of 3 ranged specs in the game that could kite melee, and you pruned gust of wind and earthgrab totem. Why?

Do you literally want every melee to have 100% uptime on every caster in the game except mages?

(Chihao) #525
09/29/2018 11:16 PMPosted by Prime
Ele was one of 3 ranged specs in the game that could kite melee, and you pruned gust of wind and earthgrab totem. Why?

Do you literally want every melee to have 100% uptime on every caster in the game except mages?

Someone's gotta be the punching bag, shamans win that role everytime.

(Shamazing) #526
For me, shaman still with bad mobility, the changes that you told, are pretty nice, I think blizzard should listen The players, and I still saying, it is bad to move and do dps with this long casts....

(Madalot) #527
09/29/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Prime
I want to know what blizzard sees as strengths for elemental, because I'm struggling to think of any.

Weak mobility, weak durability, weak single target damage, strong sustained aoe?

I mean if you want elemental to be less mobile, then it should do good damage while standing still right? If you want ele to be less mobile, then it should have more passive and cooldown based defensives right? I don't get it.

Also, why did earthgrab get pruned? The BS reason they pruned gust of wind was "too similar to blink" even though we all know it wasn't. So what was earthgrab totem too similar to? Frost nova? Why do mages get everything?

What are elemental shaman supposed to be good at?

(Vegito) #528
I don't mind LB buffs if anything they're more than welcome. In PvP however it'll almost never really be worth casting. Feels like the burst is going to move into playing with Surge of Power into Earth Shock, Stormkeeper LB's rather than consisting of purely ES's.

Surge is going to add a lot of flavor to the spec through the root from frostshock and FS not going on CD, but for the consistency of the spec casting LB will almost never happen. Whether from it doing laughable damage without SK or just from not wanting to get locked out of all of our defensive, including GW which is our only form of kiting currently.

Hoping for a LvB buff so Igneous will be the meta trait

(Herdimmunity) #529
Take elemental attuenement
Take earthfury
Take after shock
Take that new meme talent

Repeatedly (minimum 2) stun people with a non dr stun earthshock. This sounds freaking idiotic and it needs to be changed before people complain and we get nerfs. Obviously this shouldn’t be the case.

(Popolyfe) #530
09/14/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Sybille
I think the Flame Shock cooldown should be removed. Let player skill know when it’s right to refresh and when you’re potentially wasting a GCD. This will also allow some multi dotting. Let Lava Burst always crit as was originally intended for BfA. Destruction warlocks get auto crits on Chaos Bolt, so we know it can’t be game breaking.


This

(Popolyfe) #531
09/14/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Sybille
I think the Flame Shock cooldown should be removed. Let player skill know when it’s right to refresh and when you’re potentially wasting a GCD. This will also allow some multi dotting. Let Lava Burst always crit as was originally intended for BfA. Destruction warlocks get auto crits on Chaos Bolt, so we know it can’t be game breaking.


This ,
09/14/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Sybille
I think the Flame Shock cooldown should be removed. Let player skill know when it’s right to refresh and when you’re potentially wasting a GCD. This will also allow some multi dotting. Let Lava Burst always crit as was originally intended for BfA. Destruction warlocks get auto crits on Chaos Bolt, so we know it can’t be game breaking.


This

09/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Nimox
As the patch 8.1.0 information starts to comes out, we wanted to share the current plans of what is being changed for Elemental Shaman.

Core Ability Changes:
  • Shifted some damage from Earth Shock to Lightning Bolt.
  • Elemental Shaman is the only lightning based spell caster. However, over time, Lightning Bolt has gone from being a significant portion of your total damage to one of your least damaging abilities. It should be a powerful and effective spell for you to cast, and not something that feels like a burden to your rotation. Earth Shock will still be your hardest hitting spell, but Lightning Bolt should feel a bit better as part of your rotation.

  • Lava Burst has had its functionality changed behind the scenes to allow an in-flight Lava Burst to gain a guaranteed critical strike from a Flame Shock cast after the Lava Burst has been cast.
  • This change should help your initial spells cast against a monster, boss, enemy player, or whatever else feel much better. You can cast Lava Burst before combat, and when it finishes, cast Flame Shock, and the Lava Burst will gain the critical strike benefit from your Flame Shock.

    Talent Changes:
  • The level 15 talent Elemental Blast will now always pick a different secondary stat buff when causing an Elemental Overload.
  • The level 30 talent Master of the Elements can now also benefit a Physical damage spell, allowing it to increase the damage of an Earthquake.
  • The level 100 talent Stormkeeper now also increases the damage of your next two Lightning Bolts by 250% in addition to its existing effects. This damage bonus will also apply to the Elemental Overloads of Lightning Bolt from Stormkeeper.
  • The Master of the Elements and Stormkeeper changes are primarily to help keep balance between single target damage and area damage of the talent rows. Master of the Elements will now affect your next Earthquake spell to keep the talent more competitive when dealing area damage, and Stormkeeper will grant you two really powerful Lightning Bolts that also cause Elemental Overloads when fighting just a single target.

  • The level 15 talent Exposed Elements has been removed, and the level 90 talent Earthen Rage has taken its place
  • The level 60 talent High Voltage has been removed.
  • New talent in the level 60 row: Call the Thunder
  • New talent in the level 90 row: Surge of Power
  • When looking at the whole sum of changes made to Elemental Shaman this expansion, we feel that some of the passive talent choices weren’t holding up well, and had no interaction with how you played the game at all. We’re adding some experimental new talents that should allow some additional decision making on how you choose to use some of your abilities. Please keep in mind that both of these new talents, as well as all of the other changes, are still under iteration and may change entirely throughout the patch 8.1.0 PTR cycle.


    Gust of Wind back please. There is no reason why we shouldn't have it.

    (Rognvald) #532
    Regarding Icefury.

    Icefury was awesome at first in Legion. Having a casted frost nuke really helped sell the theme of an Elemental Shaman, and it helped out with mobile DPS!

    I feel like its a shadow of its former self now. The nuke doesn't hit harder than a lava burst, and the increase to Frost Shock damage has been severely reduced, to the point where using the Frost Shocks don't even feel worth it.

    The problem is Earth Shock. So much of our damage is tied to this spell, that using the increased damage Frost Shocks feels bad because we lose 4 GCDs of Maelstrom generation.

    My suggestion would be to make the next 4 Frost Shocks both increase damage and generate Maelstrom, similar to that of a lightning bolt (8). I think this would be a decent middle ground, where Frostfury isn't a massive nuke, nor are the frost shocks, but we keep our precious Earth Shocks.

    (Borgini) #533
    09/28/2018 05:39 AMPosted by Gumble
    2) Remove Earthquake


    Do players seriously ask this just because they don't want to be bothered with ground targeted AoE // getting better tanks who only move things with purpose?

    Keep Earthquake. Keep knockdowns, keep instant cast spender for our mobility in those situations. Keep all of it. No crappy CL activated Earth Shock AoE mechanics please.

    (Hópkins) #534
    Part 1/3
    Intro Comments

    The following changes are my suggestion for mechanics alterations to Elemental Shaman in the context of 8.1 PTR changes. A brief description of the change is given alongside a tier by tier discussion of how such a change hopes to address Elemental Shaman mechanically. The goal is to maintain the Blizzard-stated theme of Elemental as strong in sustained AOE, good in Sustained and Burst ST, relatively weak in 2 or 3 target cleave, relatively weak in target swapping, and relatively weak in overall mobility. By “relatively weak” I argue that, averaged out across all dps specs, Elemental Shaman must work harder and/or be more conscientious (have less room for error) when planning their movement, target-swapping, and approach to cleave fights.

    Changes to Flame Shock
    Before suggesting tier-by-tier changes, I think 1 overall spec change should be implemented in order to eliminate frustration felt (and articulated) by many Ele Shaman: interaction between Flame Shock and Lava Burst. This interaction has severely limited the Tier 15 row especially (most opting for Echo) but has also curtailed design space more generally for Ele Shaman. The updated change to in-flight Lava Bursts benefiting from FS cast post-LvB only indirectly deals with what is ultimately a mechanic issue related to the timing of Flame Shock. We feel compelled to cast Flame Shock on an add we know will die in half of the duration of that Shock if only to increase the damage of LvB during that window; either choice – to simply cast LvB on targets without Shock, or avoid casting LvB at all – feel fundamentally wrong to the design of the spec. My suggestion is a middle ground:

    Flame Shock
    15% of base mana 40 yd range
    Instant 6 sec cooldown
    Requires Shaman (Restoration)
    Requires level 3
    Sears the target with fire, causing (43.75% of Spell power) Fire damage and then an additional (153.125% of Spell power) Fire damage over 18 sec. Grants Master of Flame buff for 21 seconds, causing Lava Burst to always critically strike.

    Master of Flame
    Your Lava Burst has a 100% chance to critically strike.
    21 seconds remaining


    What this change balances is the awkwardness of re-orienting Flame Shock to a priority target with the need for Elemental to make choices about target-swapping. We want Flame Shock to matter, so it makes sense that maintaining the DOT should take priority, but I think it is better for the spec moving forward if Lava Burst is decoupled slightly from the target of Flame Shock. By placing a buff on the player, this opens up Purge potential in PvP, which I think offers interesting counterplay. In all cases this frees up the Tier 15 to offer different approach to dealing with Lava Surge procs, instead of forcing players to take Echo in nearly every instance because the proc cannot immediately be cast without repercussions.

    (Hópkins) #535
    Part 2/3
    Tier 15
    Earthen Rage – Replace entire talent with following:
    Elemental Fury bonus critical strike damage increased to 325% for Earth Shock, Earthquake, and Earth Elemental.
    Echo of the Elements – remove LvB charges. Replace with following:
    Flame Shock now generates 1 Maelstrom, and Frost Shock generates 3 Maelstrom whenever they deal damage. All Shock spells (Flame, Frost, Earth) can Elemental Overload.
    Elemental Blast – Keep Overload not stacking same buff. Add following:
    3 second baseline cast time. Damage = 125% SP. CD = 20 seconds baseline. Elemental Blast can overload two times.

    Explanation
    Earthen Rage’s current (8.0) passive damage is a missed opportunity to add flavour to the spec and gameplay adjustments even if in a passive form. The goal with adjustments in Tier 15 – in view of the alteration to Flame Shock which de-couples it from Lava Burst – is to offer meaningful engagement with Secondary stats that don’t interfere overly with Lava Surge. Earthen Rage offers better Crit scaling on the spender side of the equation; Echo offers moderate Maelstrom generation for key spells and gives Mastery an extra upside for all three types of Shocks, improving throughput for FrS and ES in a new 8.1 environment where Lightning Bolt carries a heavier load and ES is toned down. Finally, I suggest that EB offer players a significant damage burst – the spell itself, for its animation and thematic power currently does very mediocre damage – increasing both the CD and cast time, but offering higher rewards (the exact damage ratio is not overly important, but EB should do at least 1.5x more damage than LB. This tradeoff is far more appealing in a scenario where you do not have to time perfectly a Flame Shock into Lava Burst swap, and where wasting Lava Surge procs is of utmost importance.

    Tier 30
    Aftershock – keep the same
    Master of the Elements – increase to 30%
    Totem Mastery – Alter to 30 second duration, 2 min CD. 50 yard range. Upgrade effectiveness:
    Summons 4 totems for 30 seconds that increase your combat capabilities:
    Resonance: Generate 3 Maelstrom every second.
    Storm: Increase overload chance for Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning by 10%
    Ember: Increase Fire damage by 10%
    Tailwind: Increase Haste by 3%

    Explanation
    I like the proposed update in 8.1 for MotE, but I think with the above suggested changes to Echo of the Elements, and the reversion to a traditional Lava Surge proc mechanic, Master of the Elements ought to offer more bang for its buck to remain competitive. Aftershock and Totem Mastery offer distinct gameplay opportunities, but Totem Mastery ought to play a more dynamic roll as a choice, rather than a set it and forget it. Cutting the uptime, and increasing the relative strength of each portion makes this choice more meaningful, less onerous, and forces better decision-making for movement. It also introduces an additional CD in light of suggestions for changes in later Tiers.

    Tier 60
    Call the Thunder – keep the same
    Storm Elemental – add:
    Lava Burst to the list of spells that reduce the GCD of Lightning/CL.
    Liquid Magma Totem – 1.5 min CD, -15% damage, 20 second uptime (or whatever is appropriate to bring it in line), add:
    Each time it deals damage, Liquid Magma Totem increases the damage of Lava Burst and Lava Beam by 1.5% for 5 seconds. This damage buff stacks and refreshes its duration each time LMT deals damage.
    [Since LMT lasts 20 seconds and deals damage each second, players can expect a ramping buff to Lava Burst/Lava Beam that will last for 5 seconds at full stacks (25% bonus damage) beyond the duration of the totem itself]

    Explanation
    There is a clear choice between Call the Thunder and Storm Elemental; but LMT remains a un-interesting and potentially frustrating talent that frequently gets in the way of players choosing SE. It must be competitive in both ST and AOE, and yet its 60 second CD offers very little interaction with the rest of Elemental’s priorities. Storm Elemental encourages (perhaps unsuccessfully before the 8.1 changes to LB) Lightning Bolt spam, but I think Lava Burst becomes very clunky and it is perhaps counter-intuitive that players maintain the normal priorities of casting LvB even though they have access to this insane buff to Lightning Bolt. Call gives players flexibility on EQ/ES timing. I think it would be appropriate to have LMT offer synergy with Lava Burst-oriented builds so as to line up better with Ascendance and Lava Surge, and offer a clear difference in approach from the other two options.

    (Hópkins) #536
    Part 3/3
    Tier 90
    Surge of Power – change to be more consistent (also fix bugs: in-flight LvB eating buffs):
    Earthshock causes the next spell cast to:
    Flame Shock: incur no cooldown.
    Lightning Bolt: cause an additional two Elemental Overloads.
    Lava Burst: reduce the CD of Fire Elemental by 6 seconds.
    Frost Shock: generate 8 maelstrom.
    Primal Elementalist – keep the same
    Icefury – change to be more initially movement friendly (counterpoised with Storm Keeper), but less demanding of GCDs:
    Instant Cast. Damage = 70% SP Frost Damage. Generate 15 Maelstrom. Root target for 6 seconds. 45 second CD. Causes next 2 Frost Shocks to deal 150% damage.

    Explanation
    Currently on 8.1 the wording of Surge of Power is slightly misleading. Overall I like the idea of the talent, but I think it should be tuned to impact the NEXT spell only in all cases, in part to make its interaction clear, but also to make it consistent with MotE gameplay [As a note, Earth Shock overloads via the proposed Tier 15 talent would not proc Surge of Power]. I am concerned with tying Frost Shock roots to Earth Shock casts, for the implications for managing this talent in both PvE and PvP. In PvE, ES into FrS is often a go-to movement choice for Elemental Shaman, which makes this additional mechanical choice less than ideal if rooting the target (c.f. M+ or Raids) is not desirable; but it also makes wasting the ES buff on Frost Shock problematic in these instances if you are forced to move out of some mechanic to stay alive but wish to avoid downtime. I have suggested moving the Root mechanic over to a modified Icefury talent so that it is clearly connected to a choice to utilize the Frost School. As for the suggested Icefury changes, I believe it is more appropriate for both PvP and PvE. On the PvP side of the ledger, it places a powerful root tool in the hands of a spec that desperately needs it, but it does so in a controlled form that can be predicted. At 45 seconds it is not in Mage territory, but it needs to be at the instant cast speed to be of any value. I think this also goes for the PvE side, where casting 4 Frost Shocks became an awkward game of MotE weaving, or interference with Earth Shock priorities, while granting a great deal of on-demand movment where perhaps far less was required. Shaving this down to 3 casts (Icefury + 2 Frost Shocks) at 45 second intervals makes more sense overall for the spec. In addition, the damage of Icefury should be competitive and attractive (as with Elemental Blast), rather than being only a gateway to buffed spells.

    Tier 100
    Unlimited Power – keep the same
    Stormkeeper – keep the same or slightly nerf(as per 8.1)
    Ascendance – keep the same

    Explanation
    The changes on 8.1 introduce a better balance of choices between UP and SK because of a renewed focus on Lightning Bolt. Stormkeeper appears to be too strong in PvP in this regard, since it can be stacked with MotE and Surge of Power to produce 2-shot scenarios. Otherwise it is worth bringing this talent into line for ST choices. Likewise, Ascendance remains a flavourful and interesting choice for Elemental, lining up well with Lust/trinket/potion pulls, and other on-demand ST burst moments. This row is a really good example of talents that complement different playstyles with special niches that do not give Shaman all the tools for every encounter.

    (Gumble) #537
    10/01/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Borgini
    09/28/2018 05:39 AMPosted by Gumble
    2) Remove Earthquake


    Do players seriously ask this just because they don't want to be bothered with ground targeted AoE // getting better tanks who only move things with purpose?

    Keep Earthquake. Keep knockdowns, keep instant cast spender for our mobility in those situations. Keep all of it. No crappy CL activated Earth Shock AoE mechanics please.


    I'll quote myself....

    * - Earthquake Problem..... a unique CC effect that makes Elemental incredibly useful for 5man dungeons and/or CC-able raid mobs. If you make Ele a good all around damage spec with survivability approximating other specs, Ele would be an autoslot for every group, no questions asked. Blizzard is forced to keep Ele doing less damage with less survivability because Earthquake exists. Just imagine if Blizzard randomly knocked mobs down. Would any group ever not have a Frost Mage (and yes, I know how much the slow it currently does makes them nearly an autoslot for all Mythic+).

    I don't want Earthquake removed because I cannot target a circle or make a macro, I want Earthquake removed because it is a lodestone that hangs over the head of the Elemental Shaman spec and is justification for blizzard keeping the spec balanced on the lower end.

    Because if it wasn't, EQ would be a HUGE problem for any Mythic+ races and contests, as the CC it provides is unique and unparalleled for tank survivability. However, if Ele shaman simply don't bring the dps and cannot survive higher keys, the issue becomes moot because they won't be taken anyway.

    Earthquake is a problem.

    (Borgini) #538
    What you're asking for isn't removing Earthquake then. It's nerfing the knockdown chance, making it DR itself in one way or another, etc etc....

    Or don't. They aren't passionate about balancing anything.

    Regardless, no need to cut off your leg because of a stubbed toe....

    (Gumble) #539
    I don't particularly want it at all, simply because I don't find it engaging. Its just brown Blizzard/Rain of Fire/Starfall/etc..... without the knockdown its just a recolored crappy AOE.

    Maybe you didn't play Ele back when Earthquake didn't exist, but Ele AOE used to revolve around chain lightning and earthshock.... I just want them to go BACK to that, when Ele was actually fun, and make that playstyle work in a way that lets them finally boost up damage/survivability to the levels other specs enjoy so Ele can just be taken to things on its merit of being a "good ranged caster spec".... not "knockdown bot"

    (Borgini) #540
    Like the Fulmination days? Where every spell except for Chain Lightning could potentially be pushed out of an AoE rotation where everything was equal priority?

    10/01/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Gumble
    because I don't find it engaging.


    10/01/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Gumble
    I just want them to go BACK to that

    (Gumble) #541
    Yea, hence why all my suggestions is to turn chain lightning into a trigger for a cleave-able earthshock, which would allow them both to be used for AOE/Cleave.

    Which makes it as engaging button-wise as now, CL+EQ >>> CL+ES, however now Shaman can be balanced around doing solid damage on fewer targets without the need to factor in knockdown shenanigans.

    It could become a good caster, instead of a constant joke.