Elemental in 8.1


(Redbullfly) #462
Yup, I'd love to see Ele speed up some. Keeping the current changes, but:

1. Buffing Lava Burst
2. Making Echo baseline
3. Speeding up our AoE somehow, even perhaps reducing EQ cost and damage.
4. And removing Primal Ele as a talent

...would be a welcomed change to the spec.
I'd honestly be satisfied at this point.

(Brodan) #463
09/22/2018 03:29 AMPosted by Redbullfly
Yup, I'd love to see Ele speed up some. Keeping the current changes, but:

1. Buffing Lava Burst
2. Making Echo baseline
3. Speeding up our AoE somehow, even perhaps reducing EQ cost and damage.
4. And removing Primal Ele as a talent

...would be a welcomed change to the spec.
I'd honestly be satisfied at this point.


No please, keep Primal Ele or I'll lose every game to RMX. Primal Ele will be default PvP choice now.

(Goraxe) #464
I don't mind being a turret if the trade off is fair, but it's not. They are never going to let shaman out DPS mages in a turret battle. Really, if we are the least mobile class we should be highest DPS while standing still but that's not the case. We don't have the highest sustained damage while standing still I don't think we have the highest burst damage while standing still either. I would assume that still goes to destruction locks or fire Mages.

(Goraxe) #465
09/22/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Brodan
09/22/2018 03:29 AMPosted by Redbullfly
Yup, I'd love to see Ele speed up some. Keeping the current changes, but:

1. Buffing Lava Burst
2. Making Echo baseline
3. Speeding up our AoE somehow, even perhaps reducing EQ cost and damage.
4. And removing Primal Ele as a talent

...would be a welcomed change to the spec.
I'd honestly be satisfied at this point.


No please, keep Primal Ele or I'll lose every game to RMX. Primal Ele will be default PvP choice now.


Not if Ice Fury is properly buffed and viable. Ice Fury is the active talent and requires far greater interaction and decision-making than Primal Elementalist. Ice Fury should be the go to PVP talents in that row and in PVE if you want the highest DPS rotation.

Primal Elementalist is improperly balanced being it's the strongest talent in that row and requires no thought.

(Madalot) #466
09/21/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Drixhk
09/21/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Randomshocks
So, from what I saw the biggest complaints for Elemental were:

1) Slow maelstrom accumulation
2) Lack of mobility
3) Poor target switching
4) Poor cleave
5) Too much damage locked behind fire elemental
6) Low damage.

So, how many of these problems have the changes fixed? Not one.

Good thing I rerolled. Blizz is beyond pathetic.


This so much. BLIZZARD LOOK AT IT!!!^^^


100% agree with this. Also tell us what our niche is. what role do we play? where are we strong?

(Ashlorn) #467
Posted by Drixhk
09/21/2018 09:14 AM

Posted by Randomshocks
So, from what I saw the biggest complaints for Elemental were:

1) Slow maelstrom accumulation
2) Lack of mobility
3) Poor target switching
4) Poor cleave
5) Too much damage locked behind fire elemental
6) Low damage.

So, how many of these problems have the changes fixed? Not one.

Good thing I rerolled. Blizz is beyond pathetic.


This so much. BLIZZARD LOOK AT IT!!!^^^

(Allodar) #468
09/21/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Drixhk
09/21/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Randomshocks
So, from what I saw the biggest complaints for Elemental were:

1) Slow maelstrom accumulation
2) Lack of mobility
3) Poor target switching
4) Poor cleave
5) Too much damage locked behind fire elemental
6) Low damage.

So, how many of these problems have the changes fixed? Not one.

Good thing I rerolled. Blizz is beyond pathetic.


This so much. BLIZZARD LOOK AT IT!!!^^^


So much this... best short write-up yet. So disappointed with Blizzard.

(Madalot) #469
09/22/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Allodar
09/21/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Drixhk
...

This so much. BLIZZARD LOOK AT IT!!!^^^


So much this... best short write-up yet. So disappointed with Blizzard.


Only thing i'd add is that echo feels vital. not having echo feels punishing

(Brodan) #470
09/22/2018 06:30 AMPosted by Goraxe
09/22/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Brodan
...

No please, keep Primal Ele or I'll lose every game to RMX. Primal Ele will be default PvP choice now.


Not if Ice Fury is properly buffed and viable. Ice Fury is the active talent and requires far greater interaction and decision-making than Primal Elementalist. Ice Fury should be the go to PVP talents in that row and in PVE if you want the highest DPS rotation.

Primal Elementalist is improperly balanced being it's the strongest talent in that row and requires no thought.


You don't understand why we need this talent and why is it taken vs RMX/Hunter comps. Overall Icefury is better PvP talent at the moment. You only take Primal Elementalist vs these teams as it's very hard to stop their CC. You can stop most of sheeps or traps but die on that 1 CC chain. Primal Earth Elemental gives us extra 40% damage reduction and that's the key. There is no problem with damage but sometimes you need survivability to deal that damage. What's more you can control your elemental while being CCed so you can chase Rogue with it not to let him restealth.

(Goraxe) #471
09/22/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Brodan
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Not if Ice Fury is properly buffed and viable. Ice Fury is the active talent and requires far greater interaction and decision-making than Primal Elementalist. Ice Fury should be the go to PVP talents in that row and in PVE if you want the highest DPS rotation.

Primal Elementalist is improperly balanced being it's the strongest talent in that row and requires no thought.


You don't understand why we need this talent and why is it taken vs RMX/Hunter comps. Overall Icefury is better PvP talent at the moment. You only take Primal Elementalist vs these teams as it's very hard to stop their CC. You can stop most of sheeps or traps but die on that 1 CC chain. Primal Earth Elemental gives us extra 40% damage reduction and that's the key. There is no problem with damage but sometimes you need survivability to deal that damage. What's more you can control your elemental while being CCed so you can chase Rogue with it not to let him restealth.


You don't understand that Primal Elementalist is by far the highest dps in any raid situation while being basically passive talent. While the much harder to use Icefury is handily beaten in dps. I already know how bad Icefury is, but I will link/show you what every major guide and the people from discord have to say about it.

Icy Veins - Icefury is currently too weak to be considered.

Wowhead - On the level 90 row Primal Elementalist tops the charts, and the extra defensive cooldown it provides makes it an even more favorable choice. For dps Earthen Rage isn't far behind, but Icefury is very far behind.

Storm, Earth & Lava Guide -https://stormearthandlava.com/guide/general/talents.html

As you can see, none of the guide suggest for you to take Icefury in any situation.

The active talent that requires constant thought and decision making should be the highest dps.

(Olaanis) #472
in the 7.3 PTR we saw the addition of great spell visuals, some of which were taken away. You can find those spell visuals here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7lC83PbukY

Two spells in particular are in Dire need of updating for a similar reason, that reason being, they feel very underwhelming to cast and contribute nothing to the class feel, if not take away from it.

Lightning Bolt: The current visual for Lightning bolt feels underwhelming for a number of reasons. In speaking with players I have heard phrases such as "flat", "two dimensional", "too quick", "unrealistic", and many other negative terms. In addition players I have spoken with who said that they vocally opposed the 7.3 animations, did not hate the new Lightning bolt animation, just Chain Lightning. I can agree that Chain Lightning looks great as is, even though I liked the new one, but Lightning bolt definitely needs a change.

Earth Shock: I'm sure many of you have heard this argument before. Earth shock is a large-resource amount spender. It's not meant to be spammed and as it stands it has an almost completely unnoticeable animation. Many people have offered fantastic replacement suggestions such as a few earthen rage spikes rising from the ground and flying at the target, fulmination lightning being added back, or simply a large chunk of rock rising from the earth akin to that of an earthbender from The Last Airbender series.

If you're frightened that spell visual changes would negatively impact some of your players then I urge you to implement some of these animations as Glyphs or alt spells that can be purchased from Shaman trainers. That way both players who do and do not want these animations to change can be satisfied and play the class in the way they want to.

My hope is that something like this can be looked at for the 8.1 rework of Elemental as I feel we are currently on Blizzards radar and I would hate to see us get big changes with this great opportunity to improve our class being atleast looked at.

(Madalot) #473
09/22/2018 04:24 PMPosted by Olaanis
in the 7.3 PTR we saw the addition of great spell visuals, some of which were taken away. You can find those spell visuals here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7lC83PbukY

Two spells in particular are in Dire need of updating for a similar reason, that reason being, they feel very underwhelming to cast and contribute nothing to the class feel, if not take away from it.

Lightning Bolt: The current visual for Lightning bolt feels underwhelming for a number of reasons. In speaking with players I have heard phrases such as "flat", "two dimensional", "too quick", "unrealistic", and many other negative terms. In addition players I have spoken with who said that they vocally opposed the 7.3 animations, did not hate the new Lightning bolt animation, just Chain Lightning. I can agree that Chain Lightning looks great as is, even though I liked the new one, but Lightning bolt definitely needs a change.

Earth Shock: I'm sure many of you have heard this argument before. Earth shock is a large-resource amount spender. It's not meant to be spammed and as it stands it has an almost completely unnoticeable animation. Many people have offered fantastic replacement suggestions such as a few earthen rage spikes rising from the ground and flying at the target, fulmination lightning being added back, or simply a large chunk of rock rising from the earth akin to that of an earthbender from The Last Airbender series.

If you're frightened that spell visual changes would negatively impact some of your players then I urge you to implement some of these animations as Glyphs or alt spells that can be purchased from Shaman trainers. That way both players who do and do not want these animations to change can be satisfied and play the class in the way they want to.

My hope is that something like this can be looked at for the 8.1 rework of Elemental as I feel we are currently on Blizzards radar and I would hate to see us get big changes with this great opportunity to improve our class being atleast looked at.


As I understand, the negative response was to chain lightning, as the overload looked nowhere near as impressive as it does on live.

(Zugglife) #474
these changes are not enough.. its not what any of us asked for. makes one wonder wtf they look at when they make these changes

(Kaesebrezen) #475
09/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Nimox
Core Ability Changes:
  • Shifted some damage from Earth Shock to Lightning Bolt.
  • Elemental Shaman is the only lightning based spell caster. However, over time, Lightning Bolt has gone from being a significant portion of your total damage to one of your least damaging abilities. It should be a powerful and effective spell for you to cast, and not something that feels like a burden to your rotation. Earth Shock will still be your hardest hitting spell, but Lightning Bolt should feel a bit better as part of your rotation.
    This kind of seems like an abhorrent lack of basic understanding of the class.

    Looking at the current PTR numbers:
    Lightning Bolt: 70.4% SP
    Lava Burst: 53.125% SP
    Chain Lightning: 30% SP

    On live Lightning Bolt is below Lava Burst, and it has to be, for the simple reason that Lava Burst does not benefit from crit. With the current PTR numbers there is a (with procs) reachable point of crit, when Lightning Bolt will deal more raw damage than Lava Burst.

    Chain Lightning also suffers from this. You essentially move it's target cap from 2 to 3 targets, and it already was pitiful weak in cleave scenarios.

    Aside of the elementals damage breakdown being pretty poor (spend 33% time casting Lightning Bolt and it's 12% of your damage), there are significantly more problems with more damage in Lightning Bolt than there are benefits.

    Still, if Lightning Bolt damage goes up, so should Lava Burst and Chain Lightning.
    --------------
    Now let's switch the topic to the "lack of mobility/turret"-talk.

    Elemental might feel like they're the super turret-spec and suffer massively from movement, but as a matter of fact, several specs loose (signficant) more damage due to movement compared to elemental (5-10% higher loss), i.e. Demo, Balance and Shadow.

    The harsh reality is that, and contrary to poplular believe, Frost Shock is by far the hardest hitting movement filler in the game. It deals (signifcant) more SP-coefficent/s second than lightning bolt does.

    A rotation that drops Lightning Bolt completely and replaces it with Frostshock, looses 6% damage in simcraft - because Frost Shock is just that much more of a raw damage upgrade, and it makes up a good junk of the lost earth shock casts.

    Elemental has several issues, but the lack of mobility is put far above it's actual place.

    (Brodan) #476
    <span class="truncated">...</span>

    You don't understand why we need this talent and why is it taken vs RMX/Hunter comps. Overall Icefury is better PvP talent at the moment. You only take Primal Elementalist vs these teams as it's very hard to stop their CC. You can stop most of sheeps or traps but die on that 1 CC chain. Primal Earth Elemental gives us extra 40% damage reduction and that's the key. There is no problem with damage but sometimes you need survivability to deal that damage. What's more you can control your elemental while being CCed so you can chase Rogue with it not to let him restealth.


    You don't understand that Primal Elementalist is by far the highest dps in any raid situation while being basically passive talent. While the much harder to use Icefury is handily beaten in dps. I already know how bad Icefury is, but I will link/show you what every major guide and the people from discord have to say about it.

    Icy Veins - Icefury is currently too weak to be considered.

    Wowhead - On the level 90 row Primal Elementalist tops the charts, and the extra defensive cooldown it provides makes it an even more favorable choice. For dps Earthen Rage isn't far behind, but Icefury is very far behind.

    Storm, Earth & Lava Guide -https://stormearthandlava.com/guide/general/talents.html

    As you can see, none of the guide suggest for you to take Icefury in any situation.

    The active talent that requires constant thought and decision making should be the highest dps.


    I don't care about raiding, I don't care about Storm, Earth & Lava I play PvP. Icefury might be buffed but don't remove the only tool that I have vs these teams.

    If you say that decision making should be the highest dps then there would be only one cookie cutter build. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

    You should be able to have choice. In PvP Icefury was better overall because it was other school of magic so even if they kick you on nature and fire you could deal damage. What's more it had good Maelstrom generation for Earth Shocks.

    Primal Elementalist is a good talent and if it's too good buff 2 others as our dps sucks anyway.

    If you don't like 1 talent don't force others to play what sucks just because you don't like it. Blizzard should buff other talents to be on par with it. That's it.

    (Brodan) #477
    09/23/2018 06:22 AMPosted by Kaesebrezen
    09/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Nimox
    Core Ability Changes:
  • Shifted some damage from Earth Shock to Lightning Bolt.
  • Elemental Shaman is the only lightning based spell caster. However, over time, Lightning Bolt has gone from being a significant portion of your total damage to one of your least damaging abilities. It should be a powerful and effective spell for you to cast, and not something that feels like a burden to your rotation. Earth Shock will still be your hardest hitting spell, but Lightning Bolt should feel a bit better as part of your rotation.
    This kind of seems like an abhorrent lack of basic understanding of the class.

    Looking at the current PTR numbers:
    Lightning Bolt: 70.4% SP
    Lava Burst: 53.125% SP
    Chain Lightning: 30% SP

    On live Lightning Bolt is below Lava Burst, and it has to be, for the simple reason that Lava Burst does not benefit from crit. With the current PTR numbers there is a (with procs) reachable point of crit, when Lightning Bolt will deal more raw damage than Lava Burst.

    Chain Lightning also suffers from this. You essentially move it's target cap from 2 to 3 targets, and it already was pitiful weak in cleave scenarios.

    Aside of the elementals damage breakdown being pretty poor (spend 33% time casting Lightning Bolt and it's 12% of your damage), there are significantly more problems with more damage in Lightning Bolt than there are benefits.

    Still, if Lightning Bolt damage goes up, so should Lava Burst and Chain Lightning.
    --------------
    Now let's switch the topic to the "lack of mobility/turret"-talk.

    Elemental might feel like they're the super turret-spec and suffer massively from movement, but as a matter of fact, several specs loose (signficant) more damage due to movement compared to elemental (5-10% higher loss), i.e. Demo, Balance and Shadow.

    The harsh reality is that, and contrary to poplular believe, Frost Shock is by far the hardest hitting movement filler in the game. It deals (signifcant) more SP-coefficent/s second than lightning bolt does.

    A rotation that drops Lightning Bolt completely and replaces it with Frostshock, looses 6% damage in simcraft - because Frost Shock is just that much more of a raw damage upgrade, and it makes up a good junk of the lost earth shock casts.

    Arguing that Elemental has some mobility issues in the current (8.0) state is just factually wrong.


    #youthinkyoudobutyoudon't

    Blizzard knows better what will be more "fun" to you.

    (Goraxe) #478
    09/23/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Brodan
    If you say that decision making should be the highest dps then there would be only one cookie cutter build. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.


    What's retarded is you thinking a one button spam rotation should be on par with an old school Feral druid rotation or Dragon Soul Arms warrior rotation.

    I guess you only listen to yourself then, because what I said is an extremely popular opinion. That opinion is, "The harder the rotation the better the reward". Now perhaps you should go re-read what I said, because I never said Primal Elementalist should be removed. I know you're not an English speaker, but you keep accusing me of something I did not say. You even quoted the guy that said it and that fellow was not me. So stop it. I said the level 90 talents should be balanced. That means all 3 should be viable choices.

    Not if Ice Fury is properly buffed and viable. Ice Fury is the active talent and requires far greater interaction and decision-making than Primal Elementalist. Ice Fury should be the go to PVP talents in that row and in PVE if you want the highest DPS rotation.

    Primal Elementalist is improperly balanced being it's the strongest talent in that row and requires no thought.


    See ^^ I made it bold so you can read it.

    Active talents should always be higher DPS, and I did not say higher by leaps and bounds. If you are playing a total 7 talent passive talent tree and I am playing a fully 7 active talent tree you better believe I should have around 10% higher damage. Not 10% from one talent but all of 7 of them, because each one should be a percent or two higher depending on how hard it is to pull off. For example Rune of Power is a much harder talent to use than Incanter's Flow for mages, so yes, it should obviously produce the higher dps, but on Live right now it does not. The only time a passive talent should be possibly better is when it introduces a mechanic to the spec that is passive but requires that person to make a lot of decisions, like old Combat rogues Main Gauche.

    I think it is very much reasonable that Icefury produces 1% to 2% higher dps than Primal Elementalist. Is much harder to use since you cast it every 30 seconds and it introduces a new rotation instead of every 2.5 min ele that auto attacks and you can use meteor 1 time.

    (Liljessie) #479
    Just to disagree with the previous poster. No, active talents should not always net more dps in all situations. They should provide advantages and uses for certain situations (burst aoe, faster rotation, burst single target, etc) Just cause a talent is passive, should in no way mean less dps.

    On to the general topic. I don't think most people hate ele rotation, aside from flame shock cd. The big issue is its undertuned. Ele needs a damage buff to bring it in line with basically anything at all. Its damage is so sub par in comparison to basically every other dps. On top of that they lack mobility which only makes their low damage go even lower and feel even worse on the vast majority of fights these days.

    Blizzard buff elemental's damage, don't just move it around (earth shock, lightning bolt), and not some 5% flat increase either. A serious buff that at least makes you feel like you aren't wasting your time playing as dps.

    (Apollovc) #480
    I main resto but I play elemental out in the world for wqs and stuff. I will say this...Lightning bolt is straight useless. It's damage needs to be tripled or more even.

    (Brodan) #481
    09/23/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Brodan
    If you say that decision making should be the highest dps then there would be only one cookie cutter build. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.


    What's retarded is you thinking a one button spam rotation should be on par with an old school Feral druid rotation or Dragon Soul Arms warrior rotation.

    I guess you only listen to yourself then, because what I said is an extremely popular opinion. That opinion is, "The harder the rotation the better the reward". Now perhaps you should go re-read what I said, because I never said Primal Elementalist should be removed. I know you're not an English speaker, but you keep accusing me of something I did not say. You even quoted the guy that said it and that fellow was not me. So stop it. I said the level 90 talents should be balanced. That means all 3 should be viable choices.

    Not if Ice Fury is properly buffed and viable. Ice Fury is the active talent and requires far greater interaction and decision-making than Primal Elementalist. Ice Fury should be the go to PVP talents in that row and in PVE if you want the highest DPS rotation.

    Primal Elementalist is improperly balanced being it's the strongest talent in that row and requires no thought.


    See ^^ I made it bold so you can read it.

    Active talents should always be higher DPS, and I did not say higher by leaps and bounds. If you are playing a total 7 talent passive talent tree and I am playing a fully 7 active talent tree you better believe I should have around 10% higher damage. Not 10% from one talent but all of 7 of them, because each one should be a percent or two higher depending on how hard it is to pull off. For example Rune of Power is a much harder talent to use than Incanter's Flow for mages, so yes, it should obviously produce the higher dps, but on Live right now it does not. The only time a passive talent should be possibly better is when it introduces a mechanic to the spec that is passive but requires that person to make a lot of decisions, like old Combat rogues Main Gauche.

    I think it is very much reasonable that Icefury produces 1% to 2% higher dps than Primal Elementalist. Is much harder to use since you cast it every 30 seconds and it introduces a new rotation instead of every 2.5 min ele that auto attacks and you can use meteor 1 time.


    Then be clearer. I'm not native English speaker but what languages besides English do you speak? None...

    I can quote you

    "remove Primal Elementalist as a talent" and I was talking about it.

    I understand English, don't worry. I even work with native English speaking people. The problem was I missunderstood your intention.