Dungeon and ELITE damages - do it right for god sake

[Xanthak-durotan (Xanthak)]

Hey, at the end of the day a lot of us that played much earlier in Vanilla had a different experience. No, I wasn’t an avid private server player either. When I did play it, i thought it was stupidly easy and inaccurate. The jokes on me. Haha.

And I didn’t play much of any expansion. So really, what i remember is pretty much just … Vanilla and early TBC. And my experience pretty much follows the progression path. I can’t tell you what leveling or dungeons were like in 1.12 - which is why I’m not claiming it’s inaccurate.

When I’m not trolling about 1.12, I’d like to think I try and stay fairly subjective about all this stuff. If proving things were more difficult is impossible, keep in mind that there were a lot of us (most not around anymore) that weren’t terrible at the game, were not 15 years old, that actually went through all the ninja nerfs that happened to your class. Again, mage ignites used not have a limit and they ninja nerfed if. That’s an example. Can I prove it? No way. Did it happen? It did.

Heck, I may not even play Classic as it is. Even before I saw what was going on in the Beta. I have nothing to prove. Nothing to gain. No oats to sew when it comes to Vanilla. There is no agenda behind any of this.

You might want proof that is impossible. But you can’t possibly dismiss the experience of countless others either. That’s just being short sighted. This isn’t a black and white issue.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

You might want proof that is impossible. But you can’t possibly dismiss the experience of countless others either. That’s just being short sighted. This isn’t a black and white issue.

Just as you can’t dismiss the possibility that maybe there is a reason for why the game felt harder at launch that isn’t “They stealth nerfed literally every dungeon without anybody making note of it”.

Not everybody was terrible at the game all throughout Vanilla but everybody did experience a learning curve when they were new to the game, even if you were a veteran MMO player.

[Lapdance-garona]

I play on a classic EQ private server, Project 1999. EverQuest was, and is, brutal by comparison. Seriously, WoW was not that hard. Those of us that came from old-guard MMOs recognized this.

I’m not coming back for Classic because I want challenge and/or difficulty- I get that with P99. I just liked the feel of WoW, story, characters, etc. If the mobs are off a teensy in the dungeons, so be it. Let’s meet up and try fun alternatives then or just spend time farming a zone and get to know one another.

You know- real MMO stuff.

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

Interesting factoid: Shaman were originally intended to be a tanking class. That’s part of the reason they stayed viable as such for so long.

I’ve even seen a properly-itemized Warlock tank (via Voidwalker) one of the Sulfuron Harbinger adds during MC back in my BWL days. In Vanilla WoW, gear and skill were king.

those add primary , and almost only, source of DMG came from the DoT they put on their target.

dispell that and they did nearly 0 damage. gear and skill have nothing to do with it.

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

Say if the higher level dungeons will actually require some crowd control, 1.12 would still suck, but it would suck less. lol.

As it stands now, no cc required. Dungeons that we’ve seen so far are brain dead. Like retail brain dead.

I’ll never get tired of classic enthusiast who think vanilla dungeon were more complex than modern mythic +.

I had the vague hope that this beta would show you how trivial classic was, and the only reason you tougth it was hard is because people were awfull players back in the days… but it seem you’ll just move the goalpost. Now it’s because patch 1.12 made stuff too easy.

btw, the patch note are public, could you point me what patch trivialized all that stuff? Yes, i know strat/scholo got some big revamp when blizz enforced a 5 man cap instead of the mini-raid they originally were.

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

As stated earlier, blizz can make mistakes, and have done so in the past. Thinking they had the right client for demo, but didnt. I played Vanilla since beta, i wasnt 12 or 13, i to remember dungeons being a bit harder. But, as stated previously this is the 1.12 client. Things changed a lot since it launched. I think all this confusion may be due to people not remembering what patch they did dungeons in, but as people have stated and i agree, the outside world is as we remember. It is the dungeon instance world to which we disagree on difdiculty. You want proof, as you should, and id say thousands of people seeing a discrepency is enough to investigate. Which blizz says they have done and says its accurate. We dont have ample evidence to show or prove othetwise at this level. There IS ample evidence in the 55+ range. I guess we will have to wait until then to confirm or disprove our concerns. You will have to forgive us of we dont trust blizz. Seeing it for ourselves will quell the concerns.

Tl;dr
Reserve all concerns until 60 beta

there’s also thousand of player not seeing a discrepency, but just remembering how awfull people were 14 years ago.

I was a keyboard-turning clicker who spread SW pain on every mob and used a max-rank flash heal as it’s main heal… I still managed to complete dungeons. If such a horrible priest back then managed, with an equally horrible tank and DPS’er… then it’s no wonder people who actually know what they are doing are steamrolling through instances.

[Xanthak-durotan (Xanthak)]

Lol. Who brought retail into this discussion? I get your narrative now. And the funniest part? I was one of those who said that retail raiding at the highest levels was much harder than Vanilla and that Vanilla wasn’t difficult at all.

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

We might not have had databases and spread sheets, but we weren’t dumb.

I was a keyboard-turning priest who clicked his ability, spreaded Sw:pain on every mob and used flash heal as it’s primary heal.

I was totally and absolutely awful. The tank and DPS weren’t much better.

I still managed to complete dungeon just fine, including the timed stratholme runs.

[Abigaiil-tichondrius (Abigaiil)]

All that I can say is that the elites used to chunk you. I am not seeing that here.

I did not play in 1.12, so it is possible they changed how hard they hit. Maybe we will see a different result at the higher levels.

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

Lol. Who brought retail into this discussion? I get your narrative now. And the funniest part? I was one of those who said that retail raiding at the highest levels was much harder than Vanilla and that Vanilla wasn’t difficult at all.

hum, going by the quotes in my original post…

let me quote it again:

As it stands now, no cc required. Dungeons that we’ve seen so far are brain dead. Like retail brain dead.

particularly this part:

Like retail brain dead.

which I suppose is true if you do nothing but normal mode.

But if you actually push mythic + a little bit, even M+10 ( who aren’t even close to what the top guy do) are miles ahead of anything classic has to offer difficulty-wise… timed stratholme is a cakewalk

[Vlorm-bleeding-hollow]

All that I can say is that the elites used to chunk you. I am not seeing that here.

I did not play in 1.12, so it is possible they changed how hard they hit. Maybe we will see a different result at the higher levels.

not true.

I was soloing dragonkin elite on my Spriest in dustwallow. tons of people were solo’ing devilsaur in un’goro for the leather. Rogue were solo’ing the bar in BRD for their barman shanker. or the arcanite reaper rare in LBRS. I even remember solo’ing those elite demon in winterspring trying to get an eye for my anathema since Kazzak was dead all the time. I remember shamans tanking instances even in the 40s…

maybe what you remember is people in green quest gear trying to tackle an elite quest 4 level above them while not knowing how to play…

[Ogderawm-proudmoore]

And like ive conceeded, i can be wrong and so can others. Thats why i am waiting for level 60 beta. I think at that point everyone can come to a consensus.

[Abigaiil-tichondrius (Abigaiil)]

Right - but they weren’t standing there getting smacked in the face. They were using fears, kitting, pots, ect. to avoid trading blows.

[Xanthak-durotan (Xanthak)]

Well, there were definitely dungeons that were harder than others. When I see 1.12 scholo/strath and UBRS I’ll know for sure. My reaction was an extrapulation (spelling) from what saw via stream. It possible it was an over reaction on my part.

I didn’t do a whole lot of lower level dungeons back in the day. I don’t think I ever set foot in RFK or RFD. SFK maybe a handful of times. SM I did do a decent a mount. But more cathedral than anything. I don’t even remember what the graveyard looks like. But Scarlet monks i remember hitting like trucks. Granted I as wearing cloth, but i got like 1-2 shot by them.

It was too bad, but i just power gamed everything.

Who knows maybe the early instances were tuned easier than end game. That’s also possible. Like I said above, i just extrapolated and assumed that the same behavior would apply to later level dungeons.

In the beginning, I keyboard turned too. But I remember early on in the forums there was a post along the lines of “Use your mouse you idiots”. Lightbulb.

[Lapdance-garona]

But Scarlet monks i remember hitting like trucks. Granted I as wearing cloth, but i got like 1-2 shot by them.

What I remember of those bald bastards is that they hit slightly harder than most, but they also dual-wielded (fists) and kicked your spells. A caster’s nightmare. It was like the Myrmidons in Armory.

[Xanthak-durotan (Xanthak)]

Lol. Who brought retail into this discussion? I get your narrative now. And the funniest part? I was one of those who said that retail raiding at the highest levels was much harder than Vanilla and that Vanilla wasn’t difficult at all.

hum, going by the quotes in my original post…

let me quote it again:

As it stands now, no cc required. Dungeons that we’ve seen so far are brain dead. Like retail brain dead.

particularly this part:

Like retail brain dead.

which I suppose is true if you do nothing but normal mode.

But if you actually push mythic + a little bit, even M+10 ( who aren’t even close to what the top guy do) are miles ahead of anything classic has to offer difficulty-wise… timed stratholme is a cakewalk

I’m just comparing dungeons to dungeons. I didn’t play enough of Retail . I only dabbled in LFR - which I’m discounting as anything PvE. I did however level up a pally (I’ve always wanted to tank as one) by doing nothing but spamming dungeons. It was fun at first, but then it just got dumb. But watching the streams, it’s what it reminded me of.

I forgot watch patch, but when I logged on I was wondering why people had server name attached to their names. Then when I joined an SFK group in retail I almost freaked out when the tank just ran down stairs and aggroed everyone. My exact words were, “What the hell did Blizzard do to this place?”

But no. You can go back in my history. Raiding at the higher levels in Retail is much more difficult than Vanilla. I also said that the highest level raiders in Retail will be able to pick up Vanilla easier than if the highest level Raiders in Vanilla went to Mythic + Raiding.

Edit: And just because I mention cc, it still doesn’t mean it was “hard”. Just not mindless like it seems now. Kill order, cc, etc none of that matters as it stands now.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

All that I can say is that the elites used to chunk you. I am not seeing that here.

Because people are better geared proportionately as they have nothing better to do.

Maybe we will see a different result at the higher levels.

The one thing that stopped shamans really being tanks was this fact. The jump from leather to mail is nowhere near as significant as from mail to plate.This low level testing they’re running is a good indicator of whether or not they’re getting the base mechanics right.Scarlet monastery is a set of dungeons that have been designed for everyone to tank which is why they don’t do as much damage as people expect. RFD,Mara,ZF,ST etc will really test just how close numbers and damage intakes really are.

[Abigaiil-tichondrius (Abigaiil)]

You and Blizzard are likely right on this - but man it doesn’t look right.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

Edit: And just because I mention cc, it still doesn’t mean it was “hard”. Just not mindless like it seems now. Kill order, cc, etc none of that matters as it stands now.

Until you’re in a high level mythic plus then it all counts.
-Blew up the whole pack with CD’s on bursting week? GG.
-Followed the wrong kill order? It’s going to cost you time,Do that a couple of times and RIP timer.
-Didn’t save your CD"s for the boss on tyranical? Well that’s gonna cost you time.
-Don’t use personals frequently and often? RIP.
-No snares for the tanks in necrotic week? RIP.
-Don’t use any CC’s whether hard or soft on casters? RIP.

Theres a reason why I don’t mess around with mythic+ this expac, and it’s not the lacklustre loot or the time investment. It’s due to the fact that despite playing the game for 12+ years on a multitude of different toons I can’t dedicate the focus needed to succeed at high level keys.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

You and Blizzard are likely right on this - but man it doesn’t look right.

You really need to keep in mind that most of the streamers are good players too. Not scrubs freshly minted in westfall, It makes a difference. A huge one.