Dual Spec.. please?

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
5381

I would say that removing world buffs, killing pre-nerf drums before that whole thing got going, the regen buff hotfix, and the feral energy change were all within the spirit of what TBC “should” be, where the change was meant with the express purpose of trying to make sure the experience is more like TBC, even though they’re making unprecedented changes to achieve it. For example the regen buff hotfix. Ferals were slated to have, without question, the absolute worst rotation in the history of the game, all expansions or classes considered, if that wasn’t changed, and nobody knew about it back then. It would be a completely different experience than original TBC. There’s also the fact that it just made no sense to leave it untouched, it was an absurd mechanic.

I would say that dual spec does not do something similar.

It’s simply a player convenience people want…because it’s convenient and lets people be lazier. It’s not a feature that aims to achieve any sort of TBC-vibe that could be lost due to modern player habits, it’s not a change that would be made to balance out the 2021 WoW players knowledge of the game. It’s not a change meant to fix what could be considered a crippling error in the original.

It’s simply a nice-to-have that presents a major, undeniable boon to players that they didn’t actually have back in those days, and I don’t believe anybody should have access to that boon because it creates variables for approaches to TBC content that simply wouldn’t exist otherwise, and never did exist. It would create certain metas or scenarios of optimization that are completely alien to the TBC environment/sandbox. It’s oddly shortsighted to think that this simply won’t affect anyone but the people who pay to unlock it. It affects the entire game and everyone who logs in. The efficiency and versatility of players drives so many external elements, it’s hard to think how that even became an arguing point.

Similarly, I thought the (one time) boost was horrendous too, and the fact it’s something that never existed is maybe only half the reason. The arguably more pressing reason is the opportunity it presented bots to abuse and we all know to this day that TBCC has a massive botting issue.

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5382

Can you elaborate on how these represent TBC design goals? and how those goals are different from classic and/or wrath?

5383

I don’t agree but I fall short of saying you’re outright wrong. Sure, peoples opinions will vary on what is good or bad for an MMO but I dont think all or even a quarter of them are looking at it from a solo viability vs old school design angle.

I think its much more simple - dual specs are convenient and people like convenience and they are just hard pressed to formulate that into an opinion or argument that foregoes the acknowledgement that they are just entitled and lazy.

Vanilla feels like a lifetime ago at this point and its clear to me that people have forgotten that both Vanilla and TBC were still very convenient MMOs for their times. These were already highly accessible games in comparison to their predecessors. Even so there was this odd balance between accessibility and challenge* that felt pretty good - you still had to spend a fair amount of time doing things in game to get anywhere - and yeah, that started to really tilt in the wrong direction from Wrath onwards.

We can sit here and discuss expansion specific design goals til the cows come home. It just gets us further off topic from the heart of the matter which is people want it not because it is good but because they like things easy.

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5384

I think this is an important line, both zip and rigor have expressed the want to keep tbcc to the intent or spirit of tbc.

design goals matter to them, so actually delving into those concepts seems relevant.

It’s not like you’re here to truly change some already made up minds, the only ones that might sway are fence sitters or slightly on one side.

So why not delve into this?

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5385

The most relentless 6 people i have ever seen on these forums. 5.3k+ comments of arguing and even acknowledging the other peoples positions and subjective opinions, agreeing to disagree and still going strong.
I’m curious as to why this hasn’t been locked. It’s quite clear this could go on for another 5k comments and nothing new has been discussed since around comment #50. Is it time to call it? No?

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5386

So here’s the thing. Consumables are not a gold sink.

Gold sink deletes the gold from the economy. Consumables, gems. Enchants, exc. They just transfer the gold to a different player in most cases.

And as to why it’s a bad thing for dual spec. It goes against the clearly stated intended design goals for tbc and seeing as tbcc is attempting to be a faithful recreation of the intended design goals and experience of tbc that needs to be weighed in vs any possible change.

We have clear quotes from the devs fo tbc saying multi spec (which is what dual spec is a form of) goes against the intended design goals of tbc.

Dual spec is convenient, but it changes how the game is played by its effects on player behavior, and those changes in player behavior have far reaching effects. It effects how people approach farming gold, how people approach solo content, group content, pvp, pve, and even gear and consumables gathered and used.

Tbc isn’t perfect, but dual spec also isn’t fixing a bug, isn’t fixing a design intention flaw that wasn’t seen in the actual tbc from the change in playerbase to the 2021 players, it doesn’t fit the intended design goals and intent of tbc.

Is dual spec convenient? Yes. But pure convenience isn’t the only standard for a change being reasonable for being made.

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5387

Just as I have done they have expressed their preference for a dual spec-less TBC which is much more in line with the original TBC as it did not have dual specs. To add dual specs to TBC would stray away from what TBC was and I dont see a need to back this up with the original devs intentions. Its not really that relevant. Original TBC didnt have dual specs, current TBC doesnt need nor would it benefit from dual specs. Case closed.

Furthermore its already been discussed multiple times over the months. People have posted the quotes from the TBC devs which are perfectly clear on where they stood on multiple spec convenience at the time - they didnt care for it and stated their reasons as to why. All of which backs up the Rigor’s and Zipzo’s of the world and just invites the opposition to repeatedly reference the irrelevant dev commentary on dual specs in WotLK and keeps everyone spinning their tires for another day so we can avoid ending an already complete and dead discussion.

Why bother? It seems all discussion on this matter keeps missing the mark and likes to focus on the minutia while ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

But I guess it could be a fun time waster if you dont mind being trolled 90% of the time.

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5388

People who are against dual spec have low IQ and are stuck in the past. Nothing can be done to help them.

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5389

People who want dual spec in tbcc are history revisionists who have no respect for the past, nor the ability to learn from it.

I can throw baseless insults as well. Doesn’t make it true, but for some of the pro dual spec people it sure feels true.

5390

It depends on how you look at that I would say one This tbc is not tbcc On top of that I don’t think it would change as much as you think.

The way you describe you think it would change the entire aspect of the way the game is played I don’t think so.

Is what dual spec provides Is choice Is The Choice to have a off speck and be a little bit more flexible there’s nothing wrong with that.

And quite frankly depending on your class it may not change a single thing I mean if you’re a hunter what does dual speck really do for you not much.

You can have A PVP spec and APVE spec A rogue same thing There is not a single person that plays erotic seriously dis seriously daggers are not good and PVE.

This has been very crafted and tested multiple times if you were a rogue you were combat swords in pve

I would even say warlock You have seed a corruption and most of their big utility Abilities utility cool down baseline At that point if you’re really wanting to progress like the way you’re describing it.

Surely every single warlock would be going Dynamic sacrifice build I Is 20% more shadow damage Is stacked up on top of 2 other damage multipliers.

I just don’t see a lot of people wanting to give that up for Is what Oh my dots had a little bit harder.

No you get seat of corruption at level 70 Again it’s Your secondary speck for all of those classes would probably just be A PDP speck.

realistically As far as this blue post you keep talking about blue posts that already happened years ago this is 2021 not 2008 or 2007.

Is the player base has changed dramatically And there’s been tons of private servers with dual speck in them and it doesn’t hurt anything.

Like it or not most private servers are Passion projects and do you really think they would put something in the game that they felt was going to destroy it.

I’m just saying Dual spec isn’t the reason those private servers did or Didn’t do well.

And even if that gold doesn’t technically go out of the economy Technically it is going to another player depending on that player then mayor may not need.

I mean you don’t know what they’re going to use that gold for for all you know they could be saving up for their epic flying or maybe they’re saving up for another old character’s epic flying.

I mean you and I could sit here all day in argue hypotheticals But at the end of the day if a feature is still better for the game whether it was the original design intention or not it’s still better for the game.

I mean I could take one I don’t like which you would be very surprised at seal twisting I absolutely hate it I would rather them do class balancing personally but that’s me.

It’s the same thing with the greater blessing Spam I can’t stand that Even though it technically helps my class dramatically it’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of.

Hey I Spam greater blessing of kings and somehow that makes me hold thread this is fun.

Different examples but you get my meaning But just because I don’t like those doesn’t mean they aren’t good for the game.

That’s my point

5391

TBC and Classic are pretty much dead.
Empty servers. No traction with streamers. Casual fans all gone.
It’s just a game for speed runners and gold sellers now.

I hope Blizz is learning from all this and will start using this content in more interesting ways like Season of Mastery.

5392

It let’s people play more and therefore “work” harder at the game. You have this fictionalized version of the game in your imagination but that’s not how people are playing it. I never respec and many others don’t so we’re not “working” to make enough gold to respec constantly. The lack of people in arenas make it clear that lot’s of people aren’t respecing to play them. They’re simply skipping that part of the game. Add dual spec and many people will farm the gold to get it and play more parts of the game they are presently skipping.

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5393

Careful. You’re asking the wrong questions.

In this discussion, “TBCC design goals” refers to “ultimately, what the experience felt like in original TBC”.

What the design goals literally were in original era TBC are slightly…not as important because Blizzard has already stated a willingness to make #somechanges.

It was a TBC design choice to not have some of the things that they’ve already changed/added.

So when I hear the phrase “TBC design goals” in the context of TBCC, I think those are goals that are intended to recreate or mimic the feeling of playing original TBC.

Drums were not a widely used phenomenon back except in the latest parts of the life of TBC, Sunwell, by the highest performing guilds.

This time around, drums was going to basically be the world buffs of this expansion, where everyone was primed to respec LW and it would be a natural part of raiding life, even in mid-core guilds. This was something that was changed in an effort to make sure the experience of the original is properly recreated.

The regen buff mechanic was completely new and discovered going in to TBCC during beta. It was a mechanic that existed for the whole of original TBC, but nobody abused it back then. It was simply not something anybody, on any sort of findable record, ever utilized. Yet, the feral rotation going in to TBCC was primed to look like spamming trollblood potions every 2-3 seconds in order to utilize the mechanic. This was hotfixed and changed, because it better realizes the original TBC experience, because nobody did this back then even though it existed.

These changes are accounting for differences in player behavior, in an effort to balance the experience towards how it was back then and not cause too many “meta shifts” that are alien to what actually existed back then.

I don’t see how this question is relevant to anything. I don’t care the ways how TBC’s design is different to Classic or Wrath’s design. It’s irrelevant. We’re playing a recreation of TBC. The only design ethics (I prefer this phrase) that matter are TBC, and TBC alone. When I’m playing WOTLKC then wraths design ethics will be front and center for me.

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5394

I simply don’t believe you.

I have absolutely zero faith that any of what you just said here would actually be the case if they add dual spec, unless you provide an reliable evidence that this is the player behavior that would erupt from its addition.

The best evidence we have, the two expansions where dual spec existed, shows that you’re grabbing at straws at best.

I simply believe people aren’t doing those things for wholly different reasons unrelated to their spec choice, and I think it’s naïve to believe that it’s the only thing keeping people from doing them.

There might be some people are singularly blocked by the 50g respec fee, but that pool of people simply doesn’t like playing any part of the game other than an active raid activity or battleground/arena. You aren’t to be catered to at any cost. You are not the type of player that an MMORPG like TBC needs to better or improve it’s community.

This isn’t just about player behavior, it’s about the quality of the game.

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5395

nope

can you elaborate on those design goals?

I think it is, if you don’t want to get into it, that’s fine, but i think it matters.

the thread is over 5k long…

This just doesn’t quite have the same feeling as the one before it.

so then to me it makes sense to be able to explain what they really are, and how each change or non change relates back to them. Comparing them to classic or wrath design ethics is more of a tool for showing the differences, or why dual spec might not fit into the tbcc design.

When you claim something doesn’t fit tbc design goals, i think it makes sense to explain what those goals entail, to better describe why something wouldn’t match up.

For example, I think at one point someone brought up that classes seem to be made purposefully with niche weaknesses, as to encourage finding other players to fill those gaps, and thus create groups. This to me seems like a design goal, encourage grouping by design.

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5396

Blizzard said it themselves.

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5397

You’re right, and Blizzard has done exactly that for each of the changes I spoke about. They provided a detailed and thorough explanation as to why they changed it and how it was in-line with TBC values, and I agreed with them.

All I can do is infer off of Blizzard. I didn’t personally design TBC.

Blizzard gave their exact reasoning for not wanting dual spec during actual TBC. I don’t need to do any speaking for them, nor is there a need for you to excessively ask us to speak in their stead.

bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/98646792-we-need-free-respecs-or-spec-swapping/

My opinion on dual spec is guided by these sentiments. It’s clear, at least to me, that not having dual spec is inherently important to maintaining the experience of original TBC. There’s plenty of content within these statements for you to digest if you are trying to understand why dual spec does not fall neatly under “TBC design ethics”, for me.

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5398

The game itself is an embodiment of their design goals and/or philosophy. Up until that point they were still at least somewhat interested in specialization being a relatively important choice.

The current devs said they wanted to keep to the originals as close as was possible in the current climate.

I really dont know what there is to discuss in terms of developer intent on the subject of dual specs and TBC. They weren’t vague about how they felt as you can see from the quotes.

If anything, that should put the whole matter to bed once and for all and should have months ago as well but hey, 5k posts. Beating a dead horse is still beating a dead horse no matter how long it goes on for.

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5399

If there’s anything coming from pro dual spec posters that I 100% agree with, it’s that Blizzard should definitely comment on it.

5400

I found it much easier to find groups in Wrath for my dps alts. I was one of many that helped in that respect since I started to heal with my druid because it was added. Unless you provide that reliable evidence you claim I need to provide: