Dragonflight Season 4 - Knowledge Catch Up Mechanic Needed

Gameplay Professions
21

So, sort of going to agree and disagree.

Using Wikipedia is always kind of…risky, but…

Grinding is a term used in [video game] culture, referring to the act of repeating an action or set of actions, including non-repetitive tasks to achieve a desired result at a level of certain difficulty, typically for an extended period of time, such as earning [experience points]. Grinding is commonly performed in [MMORPGs].

While each week the KP quests/tasks do not meet the definition of a grind (thank you time gates), the repetitive nature of it over the course of the 6+ months to complete filling KP meets every criteria of a grind.

Time gates often prolong grinds by limiting what players can do in the specific period of time. But that does not mean that the basic task is not still a grind.

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22

Let’s use season of discovery leveling to illustrate the difference. In season of discovery, there are leveling raids that have a 3 day lockout and give a large chunk of experience. It is a perfectly viable way to level your character if you are willing to wait the 3 day lockout every time. Conversely, you can do the entire thing in a repeated series of 5 man dungeons (this phase it’s cath, ZF, mara and BRD) and you repeat those over and over. In practice you don’t run into the lockout on those dungeons. Most people would not consider doing the leveling raid every 3 days to be a grind or grinding their way to level 50, but would consider doing cath, ZF and mara over and over until you’re 50 to be a grind, even though they are basically the same activity.

23

Agree with your point on people perceiving the 3-day raid lockout as not being a grind.

But it is the same method of running the instance over and over and over again to gain experience for leveling as the acknowledged grind of repeatedly running Cath, ZF, Mara, or BRD. It stills meet the definition of a grind even though it is spread out in three day intervals instead of back to back.

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24

It’s an overly broad, and not very useful definition imo, because then basically anything that requires a long commitment then becomes a grind.

The time gate is the defining difference between a grind, and something the devs have implicitly said they don’t want players to grind. Running 80 keys in a week (grinding them for gear) is just a fundamentally different activity to me than something like doing heroic every week and gearing up over the patch. Gearing up for pvp at the start of a season and getting your upped conquest points cap every week isn’t a grind, but once it’s uncapped, playing 300 games in a week to get fully geared is something I’d consider a grind.

25

For such an overarching concept, I look at the definition of grind as being pretty decent because it allows one to carve out blocks, interest areas, play styles, or a host of numerous other things to create different versions of a grind to address things developers want to create within their game.

Time gates can prolong grinds.

Soft caps can create diminishing returns to continue grinds.

Hard caps can encourage people to change what, or how, they are grinding.

And numerous other restrictions that developers put in place because they understand that unrestricted grinding is unhealthy for both the player and the game.

But all of them remain a grind: most simply, a repetitive activity done over time to achieve an end state.

PvP, Dungeon spam (Mythic, TW, normal, etc), world quests (weekly, profession, daily, etc.), Artifact Power, Anima Power, Elemental Overflow, and Brawler’s Guild are all different activities that players perform as variations of grinds. You may not see one or more as a grind, that’s fine. I may not see others as a grind, that’s fine too. But all of them meet the definition of a grind regardless of our perception of the activity.

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26

Time gates/hard caps preclude something from being a grind. Are you going to call SoD leveling in a level up raid every 3 days a grind?

Let’s go with a more recent example: To get the wrathion/sabellion rep, you can do the weeklies every week over a number of weeks, or you can repeatedly kill mobs for rep items and then turn those in. No one is going to call doing the 3 weeklies every week “Grinding wrathion rep” but if they’re out there killing mobs for however many hours it takes now, they might say they’re grinding for Wrathion rep.

Or how about the alchemical flavor pocket. You can do the soup once per week, or you can kill the profession rare out on the forbidden reach over and over again to get a drop. I don’t think anyone would call doing the soup once per week as grinding for a flavor pocket, but killing the rare over and over is a textbook grind.

By this definition literally all of WoW is a grind. Pressing shadow bolt 5 times to get soul shards is a grind. The act of dragonriding anywhere is a grind. Clicking the right arrow on the barber shop until you get a hairstyle you like is a grind. You can’t say that there’s some minimal time frame on it, as activities like the cobalt assembly or the winterpelt furbolg are unquestionably grinds, but they can be done in a couple hours. Hell, even the old profession system would have been a grind under that definition, you just craft things over and over until your skill goes up. The difference between a grind and not a grind is some sort of time gate.

The definition given overly broad, and not useful. If it was correct, then every activity in WoW is a grind, and at that point, why ask for something to not be a grind if every single activity you can do is a grind? MMOs have always been a high time investment activity with a focus on longer term rewards. If you’re after an instant gratification gimme now experience, then a different genre may be a better fit for you.

27

You are highlighting both good and bad aspects of the definition which is why I said it’s decent, not great.

But you are also showing the versatility of the definition while not acknowledging why that’s a good thing.

No, I would not consider leveling in SoD using the 3-day raid limitation a grind. But it does meet the definition of a grind.

Similarly, I would not consider the three weekly quests a grind when the time perspective is limited to a weekly basis. When the time horizon is expanded to the total time necessary to reach True Friend with either, or both, then yes, I would consider it a grind. But I also understand why some people would not. But our perspective does not change the definition, and this is a case where interpretation of the elements helps determine how we perceive whether an activity is a grind or not. That broadness is a good thing for an overarching concept, but bad because it precipitates disagreements like this from allowing perhaps too much leeway for interpretation.

You are right, I simplified the definition too much. But also yes, taking the definition to its extremes means you could interpret almost every activity in WoW to be a grind.

“the act of repeating an action or set of actions, including non-repetitive tasks” yep, pretty much everything from raids to pet battles to moving around the map would meet this element.

“to achieve a desired result at a level of certain difficulty” this is an interesting restriction that allows our mental models to disassociate things like walking and dragonriding from a grind. Even your example of soul shards would meet this element while still allowing us to mentally not consider it a grind.

“typically for an extended period of time” Typically is always a fun word because it allows for things that are atypical as well. When applied to ‘extended period of time’ it allows for things that do not take an extended period of time, and things done in chunks of time, and things done in whatever time horizon the player/user wishes to define. It allows for us to perceive that the 3-day raid leveling is not a grind, and perceive that it is a grind depending on the time horizon the individual applies. This is where our disagreement over time gates, soft caps, and hard caps comes from. To reach agreement we have to be willing to apply the same perspective to the period of time. You seem to want to contract it or make it all contiguous for this discussion. I am going back and forth with some things in short periods, some things in longer periods, and using contiguous and non-contiguous time blocks. All are correct per the definition. A Time Gate interrupts or pauses a players’ ability to continue a grind, it does not make the activity no longer a grind.

“such as earning [The Reward].” I changed experience points to ‘the reward’ to indicate the endless variety of potential rewards. Experience, reputation, currency, items, titles, achievements, and other things are all encompassed by ‘the reward’. There is also no limitation on the amount of time required to achieve the reward here. It can be short (Winterpelt Furbolg), it can be variable (the amount of time it takes to craft all items to reach max skill), or it can be long (the total time required to collect all KP for a profession), but it is still the reward for the activity. And even the perspective of what constitutes ‘short’ and ‘long’ time periods are mostly up to the individual even though there are ‘common use’ or ‘community agreements’ that can muddy the waters.

“Grinding is commonly performed in [MMORPGs].” While this does allow for grinds and grinding in other game genres, WoW is still a MMORPG. Grinds are part of everyday life and everyday action throughout WoW in all manner of contexts.

Acknowledging something as a grind, and asking to change, in this case the amount of time for the grind, does not mean someone is after instant gratification or gimme now unless they ask for the grind to be removed. Which no one in this thread has. You may not agree with their interpretation of gathering KP as a grind, but it does not mean their perspective does not meet the definition of a grind.

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28

Vague definitions are bad, the entire purpose of a definition is to give specificity about what a word or phrase means. If there was a language that used the word “Marklar” for every single noun, that’s not a good word to use, and causes confusion, even though it is a very versatile word that can be used for all manner of things.

Just so I’m absolutely clear on what you’re saying. Consider a hypothetical reputation. The reputation gaining activity requires killing 1 mob for 1 rep, and you need 100 rep to get exalted. If blizzard sets a cap so that only the first 10 mobs you kill in a calender year will give you rep, meaning it takes you 10 years to hit exalted, is that a grind?

If yes, then you’re basically just defining grind as “an activity that takes longer than I personally deem is worth it” in which case, that sounds like a personal problem and we’re back to the instant gratification thing.

If no, then great, we agree, time gates stop something from being a grind.

Please tell that to the people who struggle with dragon riding, or grey parse. Pressing those buttons absolutely has a degree of difficulty.

It does if their perspective is wrong. If someone genuinely truly believes in their heart of hearts that an apple is an orange, they’re still wrong no matter how hard they believe it.

29

Agree that vague definitions are less than ideal. ‘Grind’ in the video game context is part of a large group of terms that are based on colloquial or community use instead of meeting the requirements to be published in a standard dictionary after being discussed, spindled, mutilated, and refined by lexicographers. But even within standard dictionaries there are words that have very broad ranges of interpretation that often seem like people are using different words. At least here we are arguing the semantics of the elements and criteria that constitute a grind, and their resultant outcomes, rather than combating the definition.

Me, personally, I would not consider ten kills per year for ten years a grind. But at the same time the hypothetical situation you pose meets the definition of a grind.

Worth has no attachment to, or inclusion within, the definition I posted earlier. Worth is a value applied to the reward by the person or player. Whether a grind is ‘worth it’ has no bearing to the discussion of what is a grind.

Your example with parsing and dragonriding highlights exactly what I’m describing within the definition of grind. “to achieve a desired result at a level of certain difficulty.” I remember hearing Molten Core and Temple of Ahn’Qiraj as grinding through them. Raiding has always been in an interesting place because grind absolutely applies to them, but the language has evolved over time to more precisely reflect what raiders are doing when they approach raids and perform in them. It doesn’t mean raids are no longer grinds as groups go through them reset after reset although the introduction of LFR and other QOL changes make the perspective even more elastic. Similarly with Dragonriding, it does require a certain degree of skill depending on what one is doing which meets that criteria for a grind. But most people/players’ minds will look at what Dragonriding is doing/accomplishing and say, ‘nope, not a grind’ even though it still satisfies that element to be one.

Part of the problem with broad definitions is it becomes much more difficult to argue something is wrong even if we do not agree with it as long as it still meets the criteria. You do not agree with the interpretation and say it is wrong, but you do not challenge the element of the definition, just the broad outcome defined by someone else with a different interpretation even though it still holds true to the latitude offered by the definition.

A belief is not the same as satisfying the elements of a definition. An apple is not an orange because an apple does not meet the definition of an orange. They both meet the definition of fruit though, along with dozens of other edible foods.

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30

Hey. New player here who generally gets things.

Profession system and currencies and catch-ups and tokens are so bad that I’m literally thinking about only doing PvP and buying tokens because I don’t want to Google 70 things. This isn’t to say I’m lazy, I will Google 10 things, just not 70.

So to your point, speaking as the choir, I’m working on gearing, figuring out getting Embelishment ASAP so I’m not creamed, player abilities, muscle memory, finalizing my binds. if I do PVE? I heal, and I pride myself on being good at it. So I need to figure every boss out, when to precast Radi- the works.

90 percent of the other stuff is too much because I also have a full-time job.

I’m not calling for vanillared homogenization, but I’m saying there’s a gray area deperately needing addressed. My excitement on replaying is waning fast on the prospect of them wanting all this meta homework. Even the catch ups you guys have in place are so decentralized and wonky I can’t figure them out, even Wowhead struggles to update their info on Df mechanics, some stuff I look up is two patches old? this is twice as bad as SL. Oh yeah I also forgot, I need to figure out the 17 gear upgrade systems too.

It’s ridiculous. The best case scenario is you have me, who will just PvP and you are thinking ‘okay bye big loss’- which is fair! But worst case? You guys have people playing who don’t catch up or do homework and they will weigh everything you guys try to do down, and hard, by final content patch, mark my words.

Final edit: I know my post seems vague but seriously I would making specific talking points but I understand nothing about the current systems so I don’t even know really how to articulate the fact I’m confused and spending a lot of time simply trying to figure out how I can try to figure out how I can understand everything and be a positive and content-achieving contribution to my server.

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31

Wowhead Forget google, this is all that is needed.

Also, punctuation. I know you needed to vent but I can barely understand your train of thought. DF has far less currencies than say SL? Theres the 4 crests type that are still quite relevant but other than that?

Anyway take a look at the site, lots of good stuff in there.

32

So everyone maxes the easiest profession, then undercuts everyone else on the hard professions with their alts ? That doesn’t seem fair, does it?

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33

I am a veteran player and I have been dabbling in WoW professions for a long time. Even I am at a point asking what they world were they thinking designing professions to be such a mess.

:man_surfing: :surfing_woman: