Here’s hoping we can get Unbound Freedom, Heart of the Crusader, Divine Protection, Divine Toll and Auras fixed in the class tree.
Divine Toll would be replaced in the Holy/Prot tree with something of more value.
Divine Protection would be replaced in the Holy/Prot tree with BoW and BoK respectfully.
Ret has access to Falling Sword because its about time Ret gets something cool.
So, you want a slow Heroic Leap?
How about, seeing as we’re going to be stuck with the pony, a proper mounted charge, with a holy lance, so the charge does some serious damage to the target (making it different from other charges)? Subtlety rogues get to teleport as part of Shadowstrike, so it’s not a new idea, but as this would be a charge, not a teleport it’s not identical.
Extra talents could grant it an AoE around the struck target, or a knockback/up, or some other effect.
I want to have an instant gap closer than travels the Z-axis, without clipping on doorways or boxes. >.>
The original Judgement of Justice/Seal of Justice effect would be great.
Slow/snare with a chance for brief stun on hit.
Well Perhaps they could put The Mad Paragon where Final Verdict is and move Final Verdict to where Divine Toll is. Then put Divine Toll and Divine Resonance where The Mad Paragon and Seal of the Crusader are.
For holy they could then perhaps replace Divine Toll and Divine Resonance with Ashen Hallow and Radiant Embers respectively.
I don’t know about prot, maybe Vanquisher’s Hammer and Duty-Bound Gavel
Hi all, I hope this post will contribute to the discussion as a whole:
I’ve played ret paladin for years, multiple Cutting Edge achievements as Ret, but the struggle is real. Ret paladin has lackluster utility, paladin’s see play in high level only when these are true:
That already dissuades people from playing Ret, then you factor in community’s perception, sitting on LFG for one hour as a ret paladin getting declined because groups think it’s literally trolling to bring a ret to m+.
High level things ret paladins want out of the spec in DF:
Now an overview on talents themselves (wont comment every single one):
Hammer of Wrath: please make this baseline for all specs and think of something else, or make the auras baseline. The paladin tree feels extremely lazy as we are just getting our spec and class abilities turned into talents and getting nothing new. For example, shamans don’t need to talent into lightning bolt, but we are forced to talent into this, plus talent into crusader strike extra stack which we always had baseline.
Aura of Swift Vengeance: can we get this to be more interactive somehow? Paladins will often be forced to go into devotion when running solo groups, losing the entire point to have this aura at all, maybe this aura can combine devo with a steroid seraphim applied to ourselves? Also, what’s the goal behind the wings component upon death? It does not extend wings, also if you have people dying, thats usually bad, maybe this could store a wings proc, or some revenge dmg and we can use it actively rather than a non engaging passive.
Fist of Justice can we move it somewhere else? This may not always be used (e.g raid fights) but it precedes seal of alacrity which we will always wanted to get, thus causing a dead node that costs 2 points.
Divine Steed Seasoned Warhose - combine and give us something else or move templar into that row
All these consecration modifiers - Golden Path, Hallowed Ground, etc poop with sprinkles. If its too late in development to do this, increase the duration on consecration while increasing CD, or make the enhancement to blade of wrath extend the duration on existing one.
Move After Image a tier up into a choice, remove golden path, give access to holy shield to all specs
Seraphim and Sanctified Wrath on Same node makes no sense, we have the option to combine both currently when holy power flow is enough to warrant playing seraphim, split this into something else, depending on tuning seraphim will likely be dead as it will be passively applied through auras, thus making it unusable.
Seal of Might needs to connect to the end of the tree, and it should be 2 points, not 3
Highlord judgement and Seal of wrath complement each other but are far apart
obduracy, more like obDULLracy, cmon this talent is supposed to be what?
virtuous command is low impact, it should not be soo deep down with the tree
I mean, in baseline into talents discussion, just listen to the man himself, skeletor, he had a post on retpaladin xyz
Now some bonkers crazy ideas:
In all honest, I think it comes down to us being a bit less single dimension and being able to fare well in M+ for more playability, along with better utility (soo many specs getting godlike utility, all we get is bop).
In addition to what I posted above, reviewing spell caps for our abilities would also be nice, Wake of Ashes being capped to 5 and fallout dmg feels bad, while specs like shaman and Lock get the 20 cap, surv gets the 8 cap… etc
If possible something other than divine steed maybe? Something like Vi’s charge from league of legends, where we trample and knock things aside (good for sanguine week, or steed knocks back like it did in pvp for prot).
Also there are talents in the way of other better talents that are mandatory waste… for example a BOP in between wings talents, there will be scenarios where a BOP will be worthless, so why force it through two talents we will always pick. These talents should be positioned in such way that they can be picked situationally and not be mandatory everytime.
I wish it would exist into the Holy tree too.
Thats a big no no. Some holy player really like the Mad Paragon. So why limiting to Ret only. And also as Holy I much prefer Vanquisher hammer over Ashen. And seal of mercy is a nerfed version of Ashen anyway so I dont need it twice
It’s actually capped to 1 target. You don’t do full damage on any other target besides the main target. And it gets low after that pretty fast. I’ve been asking for it to start degrading in damage after 2-3 targets instead, maybe this could be implemented as a talent to help our cleave?
That’s fair. The way it’s implemented on the retribution tree currently is trash anyway. Class tree needs some changes.
Seal of Mercy is just garbage.
Stuff Holy its all Blizzard focuses on
Sorry I meant Goldn Path healing 5 player
Except Holy got the worse tree out of all spec and was released 1 week after so not sure they focus on them that much
Falling Sword, yes, please.
Landing and then popping wings would feel so amazing
Hardly, you watch, only holy will be super viable for raids, M plus and pvp.
Never they weren’t viable. Just their tree is horrible right now with bad branching.
I love how the ret writer for wowhead spent 95% of the article praising the trees, “so many possibilities” to then in the VERY LAST PARAGRAPH say “I don’t think either tree does much to address the fundamental issues Ret has had recently with either survivability or even getting a raid spot to begin with”
He speaks of “lots of customization” when the trees have a clear path to lock you towards pure aoe or st. He briefly mentions how bad the class tree is but just moves forward .This is why we are in this mess, I am sure blizzard sees someone be happy about the tree and just move on to the next one.
I never read these articles they are always biased and weird to be honest. They often dont seem to know what the class need also
Apologies if any of this has been said. Copying from Wowhead:
Make Wings a default 2 mins on one node. Replace current second Wings node with AW: Might. Scratch that. Just make Wings one node, 20% dmg, heal, & crit. Nonsense that we should have to buy back our base CD in multiple point spends. Replace the second AW node in the class tree with Divine Toll. Add Ringing Clarity as a choice in the node with Divine Resonance, to sit where the Seal of Might node currently sits. (see below)
Replace AW: Might with Light’s Decree as the choice pair with Crusader. Give Prot the choice of Light’s Decree or Sentinel, give Holy choice of Avenging Crusader or LD as well, just that it does healing splashing from themselves and their primary Beacon instead of damage.
Horse should be 2 points, max. Not 4. Make the duration 6 seconds baseline.
The choice node of Repentance/Blinding Light should be moved to be optionable and off the main progression path. Swap it with Judgement of Light.
Move Holy Aegis to Cleanse’s spot. Drop Cleanse one row (mirroring Turn Evil). Move Seal of Might to Holy Aegis’s old spot and make it a 2 point node.
Delete Obduracy and put the DivPurp/Holy Avenger choice node in its place. Swap the Afterimage node and the Judgment debuff node.
Get rid of Improved BoP, make the Spellwarding choice node a simple choice between it and BoP. PUT DIVINE PROTECTION IN BoP’s PLACE.
Stop trying to make Consecration a thing unless you’re going to make it move with the Paladin. It’s going to be useless in M+ (which is likely where they think it will shine) because the melee group especially is constantly having to move. It’s never felt good to press and, even with its many buffs here, still has no meaningful synergy with the class outside of exorcism. Even if it does high damage, it’s not damage that the player is actively engaged with. It’s just a maintenance buff that is extremely easy to lose through no fault of the Paladin. Feels bad.
Give Ret a talent that makes them useful in a raid beyond what Prot/Holy already bring better. Improved Ret Aura - anytime Ret aura is triggered, cause raid members to gain X% crit for equal duration to Ret aura’s effect. Place it where Holy Crusader sits in the Ret tree. Delete Holy Crusader.
JV and Eye for an Eye are a wasted node that will never be taken by anyone who remotely knows what they are doing in pve outside of extremely niche situations (for Eye only) and JV in particular is little more than a newbie trap. In pvp, Eye has some usefulness but will still be a rare choice. Why are we still dealing with the corpse of JV in our tree six years later? At the very least make this node a choice between a personal phys dam reduction (Eye) and a magic dam reduction CD. Or maybe make Divine Protection in the class tree have a 90s CD, reducible to 60s in this node?
Also, give Long Arm back, you can keep the horse Blizz. Or at least make Long Arm a choice node with Hindrance. If we want to go down the left side of the tree for an Execution build, we’re forced to either take a useless snare or equally useless consecrate “utility”. The point of utility abilities is that they are both a) optionable and b) actually useful. Literally the only node on this row that meets muster and grants access to the end of the tree is the Healing Hands/Selfless Healer node.
Can we just quote this with our hearts and soul? This is pretty much how ret feels.