So far the new talents seems to me like garbage. It’s just the same talents we have now but with a new face and basically the same funcionality.
I mean, the 3 basic Enhancement melee abilities are now in the “new talents”. How the F are you gonna play early levels with no Stormstrike, Lava Lash or Crash Lightning? I dont have the Alpha but I cant picture what the spec looks like with 0 talents selected. Basically it’s nothing: no abilities, no passives, no nothing.
The problem is that the talents trees ARE BADLY DESIGN.
The Class part of the talent should improve the baseline abilities the CLASS has overall. For Shaman, that part should improve the abilities like Ghost Wolf, Reincarnation, Astral Shift, Purge and Hex. Also, it should improve and/or contain the Shields and the Totems. This should also improve general ability damage, like Nature damage or Lightning abilities.
In the other side, the Spec Tree should have and improve the abilities that are the signature of that fighting style. There should be major damage increase for those abilities, new interactions and the legendary effects. For example, Spirit Link Totem should be available for all specs at a normal potency, but Restoration Should have a talent to make it more powerful.
But nah, we just got a lot of talents that used to be passive abilities, normal abilities and we are supposed to think this is good news.
Like you do right now? You don’t get Stormstrike until lvl 20, Lavalash until lvl 10, Crash lightning until level 38 and Maelstrom weapon in lvl 28. With this tree you get Stormstrike at lvl 11, you already have Maelstrom weapon and you can have Crash lightning at lvl 29. So you get your main spells faster, idk why you are complaining.
While I think some abilities should be baseline, I think is better to have a tree with the actual abilities and not just passives.
I know blizzard have the reputation of not listening to peoples feedback, but man there is people who complain for EVERYTHING, they don’t want to improve the class. I hope they don’t listen to you, or that dwarf who is complaining in this post too, all you do is speak hate and not give any constructive feedback for the class.
That is what people were asking for lol. Why do people keep saying this? This is what people asked for when they complained about borrowed powers. It is getting new abilities then taking them away at the end of the xpac.
Lots of feedback was people asking for OLD spells back that they found fun.
They are not “new” talents. They are unlocked while you level. Right now you don’t even get SS till lvl 20. Right now during leveling you have LB and primal strike till lvl 10 when you pick your spec. You do understand that right? At lvl 60 you are starting with 30 talents from each tree or whatever it is. You are not unlocking all of these from 60-70.
This is mostly what the classic trees did and people did not like it. It was boring and didn’t allow you to have a playstyle. That is why they made the new trees. Now these tress have multiple play styles you can make.
Go read forums before the trees were posted. They gave what tons of people were asking for. Now you are complaining about what the community wanted?
Did you read the second part of my post? I detailed how the class and spec parts of the talents should work to have a better streamlined way of building specs in both parts of it.
Right now Dragonflight Enhancement is gonna be the same as it is right now. Yeah, being able to pick like 2 or 3 “legendary effects” at the same time is gonna be good but overall you cant deny this is just a new paint job. You are gonna do a lot of clicking to have the same abilities you have right now.
This has nothing to do with borrowed powers. I never talked about it. Im talking about the wrong approach to 2 separate talent trees that could do a lot more to create builds that are interesting, or focused on less spells, or more versatile.
You did not played Classic if you are arguing this. Classic didnt had a class talent tree. It had 3 separate Spec trees that you could use simultaneously. You could even take like 20 talents from each spec talent and botch your character.
The fun part was that the first talents were minor advantages, like being main Arms Warrior but take talents in the Fury Spec to do more damage, critical chance or having Blood Craze. Or being Fury and take a few Arms talents. That’s what people wanted.
People wanted a more deep way to play their classes and the talnt trees we are gonna get doesnt provide that.
Look at the Elemental tree: You have Frost, Fire and Lightning paths (roughly). Now choose 2 of them. Now look at Enhancement tree and pick 2: Primordial Wave, Ascendance and Elemental Spirits. Seems familiar?
The problem is that they are reworking the talents but not implementing a new philosophy or cool ideas on it.
The problem is this: if you take away from the trees all the abilities and passives you ALREADY HAVE NOW in Shadowlands, you are gonna end with a couple of options that are now probably a talent in a tier, or a legendary or a new idea. And this is how you just repainted the live talents into “new tree talents”.
Definitely agree with switching ascendance to the left side.
Primordial Wave should be moved higher in the tree though, it does not really feel like a build defining capstone that the other 2 branches feel like.
Portraits
If rather see something fire focused put there.
My suggestion.
Row 8 - Lava Burst now has 60 second cooldown, and triggers Hot Hand. Hot hand now also reduces the cooldown of Fire Nova.
Row 9 - Each point of Maelstrom Weapon consumed reduces the cooldown of Lava Burst by 1/2 seconds, and has an additional 1/2 charges. Lava Lash generates 1/2 stacks of Maelstrom Weapon.
Row 10 - Lava Burst is now instant cast and deals 150% more damage. Primal Primer and Primal Lava Actuator stacks are not consumed during Hot Hand
Your statement is a direct reflection of borrowed powers!
You want all new talents and abilities… Them changing that every xpac to give new abilities and talents was borrowed powers. You would get new things then taken away. That was the concept of borrowed powers.
You are miss interrupting what was said.
The classic tree did that. People hated it no matter what you say. It was complained about how boring the trees were which is why they changed them in Cata to what we have. Your talent choices picked a play style. As of right now you can pick a play style. People want to be able to pick PLAY STYLES.
This is not what people wanted. This is boring… Why it was changed. A tree that just increases damage by % or increases a stat by % is just dumb. It isn’t a style; it is just a boring buff with no depth…
You are just trolling with this comment lol. I mean how on earth do you not see the amount of different ways you can play right now? But you think increase damage by X% is a more in depth way to play?
This is borrowed powers!!! If you are wanting them gone and new abilities, that is what people did not want. People wanted to keep abilities we have and wanted past abilities from other xpacs. Would you like links to threads with people stating this?
Get rid of the “paths”. It is more of a Single Target build, Cleave, Funnel build. Those are the different play styles.
You also DO have different ways to use the abilities with things they have added. Did you even look at the tooltips? Way more ways to generate MS. Ascendance has 2 additions to it. You can have wolves two different ways now. MS stacking to 10 then being used for 200% damage increase if you want. They changed way more then you are letting on. You are coming across upset over same abilities which is what people wanted.
Do you understand the concept of borrowed powers… We didn’t want to lose new abilities every xpac. We wanted to keep them and add to them.
It is in the right spot. It is a huge dps spike to be higher with the addons. It should be on left side. Can get up to 40% haste buff, which goes very well with WF and SS. More auto attacks for WF and more auto attacks for free SS.
People need to not look at the tree as “element paths”. It is a playstyle path. Something not fitting is because how people are viewing the talents with how they want to label the paths. Not the playstyle and how it syncs with each other. Honestly Enhance tree syncs super well with each other.
You are not just putting words in my mouth, you are also misunderstanding the whole thing when what I’m saying is totally clear.
No, I dont want that. I want more versatile classes by having more interesting talent trees. Cant understand that yet?
Borrowed power was a problem in certain spec and classes (Enhancement was one of them) but not fundamentally bad. You could have ended Legion and begin with a new talent tier with the 3 most used legendaries to choose and people would have never complained about borrowed power.
But still, my criticism is not about that. Weird that you still cant understand that after explaining it over and over when I never said anything about that even remotely.
No, I did not “miss interrupted” what you said. And no, people didnt hated it. It just became old and add 5 more points every expansion would have been, in the long term, ridiculous. By Warlords, the talent trees would have been so filled of points that you could have practically everything from 2 specs.
I prefer to choose between increase my fire damage by 5%, or my nature damage by 5%, or my damage resistence by 5% any day than just picking Lava Lash at level 10 just because I need to take it so my spec can properly work. Who knows, maybe I want a very potent fire build centered around doing big Flame Shock damage and crits. Like Enhance + Skybreaker.
NO IT IS NOT.
No bro. Talent grids got old and hated because ever since their birth in Pandaria not a single talent tier was added in over 10 years. also, many talents are totally useless. Do you play enhancement? Then tell me a single scenario where Ice Strike, Crashing Storm or Earthen Spike is better than any of the other options. Dont worry, I’ll tell you: never.
The problem with borrowed power was not the fact about losing abilities, because that has happened since WoW is WoW. Seems that you haven been long enought to graps that or you just havent been paying attention… or you havent been in the short end of the borrowed power.
The problem is BP has always been the hassle around it and the fact that many specs were built AROUND the BP. Enhancement in Legion was great because of the Doom winds ability. Then in BfA was garbage the entire expansion because the spec lost its cenbtral component. And guess what, when Doom Winds returned as a legendary in Shadowlands it was the meta power to have during seasons 1 and 2. And now in season 3 the meta of enhancement is around Wolf Bones, Skybreaker, Primal Lava and/or Elemental Conduit. Remove them and the viable builds the spec has right now just dissapear.
Do you get it now? do you understand the difference?
You are saying they are using the same abilities… New talents and abilities would be borrowed powers… If we lose what we gained during SL, that makes it a borrowed power. We only had it for that one xpac. That is the point of the word “borrowed”.
That is not what you are saying when you are stating
Borrowed powers was never bad. People didn’t like losing the abilities. I don’t think you understand why people disliked that system still.
If they kept it, it would not have been a borrowed power lol.
No, they would have kept adding to the bottom of the tree like they did in BC and WotLK. You don’t keep going down another tree lol. It was disliked, people constantly on forums did not like a cookie cutter lay out where you had no play style choice. Why we got a different tree that changed your play style that you got to choose.
You can unlock it via talent tree or just given it by means of leveling… It is something to look forward to unlocking as you level. It isn’t that much fun getting all the abilities given to you from the start. But again selecting “storm strike damage increase by 2/4/6%” isn’t fun. Tons of those talents on the classic trees were that pointless.
Ice Strike as in the new talent? I can see a lot of use of it to buff Frost Shock to getting up to 250% increase damage on 5 targets.
Crashing storms— Go to bloodmallet and look at the dps sims for talents. Crashing storms is less than 1% dps difference.
it is less than 1% damage difference for ST. Min/max you wouldn’t take it because it is a dps loss. Plus movement can make it less. That will always be the case with ANY type of system. If something does 1% more damage, that is the only choice.
Earthen Spike did see use till scaling later caught up through the xpacs. It is a niche ability.
If your argument is there are 2 useless spells constantly because of min/max. That is how it works. It will always be a thing.
Yes it is lol. Why it is called BORROWED. Think of legion artifact. People spent so much time unlocking all those abilities then it was taken away. Then we had to do it with corruption. Then we lost it. We BORROWED those powers.
They kept what is working and added to it… It is no longer borrowed powers. They kept what is working with the spec and added to it. Which is what people wanted. Then people asked for old talents back that they loved.
The real question is
I mean they added two new improvements to Ascendance
PW gives you 10 malestorm which will be huge burst with up to 40% haste with DW while you still get to keep other top end abilities
Overflowing Malestorm for huge ST/Cleave
Icestrike to buff Frost Shock, if you take hailstorm that is 250% increase and hits 5 targets
CL reduces CD of crash which gives you even more uptime for cleave
Two different style for wolves
Two different ways to use LL
You can just stack SS buffs and 2 buffs to LL for ST damage
Easy cleave build
AoE focus build
Possible Lava Burst build
You are trying to tell me the tree is crap because you don’t have a “versatile” options in your builds… This is by far the best trees have ever been in the idea that you have multiple ways you can pick your play style.
I mean you have given any examples of how the tree is bad lol.
While you are correct that the paths are more playstyle based and not just elemental branches, switching places of Ascendance and PW is still helpful for these playstyles:
You would need only 2 talents to reach from Doom Winds to Ascendance (as they are synergizing talents)
You will be able to instantly reach Elemental Assault from Ascendance (as they are synergizing talents)
You will be able to reach Ascendance from Stormbringer / Improved Stormbringer and get reset / empowered Stormstrikes even during Ascendance
You will have a path containing Fire Nova, Swirling Maelstrom, Primordial Wave and Legacy of Frost Witch and they all synergize decently well together - you apply Flame Shock, spread it to 5 targets with Lava Lash, pop Primordial Wave, blast them all with 5-10 stacks MSW PW Lightning Bolt / Lava Burst (if one of my suggestions is implemented), receive massive Haste bonus, then blast them all with Fire Nova and receive several MSW stacks back, then hit them with Crash Lightning, then use reset and empowered by Legacy of the Frost Witch Stormstrike, then build 2-3 more MSW stacks from damage and then use Chain Lightning, having a quite decent AoE rotation from this branch.
The thing is primordial wave works with all the builds. It’s energizes with every build also.
If you would do a full ascendance build, you are going to want primordial wave with it. Doom winds ascendance and haste buff from primordial wave. I would assume the 10 stacks would be two different lightning bolts with the talent or just one big auto one into your target.
Fire Nova is going to be a lot weaker since primordial Wave is a flat 45 second cooldown and doesn’t have a chance to not use a charge. You’re not going to get that many fire Nova’s off during a pool so I would assume hail storm is going to be used way more over fire Nova.
Primordial wave is more going to sync with Doomwinds honestly. It’s not going to have the same effect in dragonflight compared to retail.
Switching sides isn’t going to accomplish anything anyway. They’re all very easy to get to because the talent choices are all good.
Compared to other trees we have it way easier. I mean I get primordial wave and all its extras, wolves are maxed out and I get ascendance.
The only thing I do not like is lava burst. Depending on how the damage plays out enhance might only use lightning bolt every 45 seconds. We would bounce between elemental blast and lava burst. But it is what it is.
I agree with him with how it is laid out. It has a very easy flow to get what you need for single target or cleave.
I checked in the calc and mostly you are right - I could easily access both PW and Ascendance at the same time. However, that only supports my suggestion - swapping the sides would not harm builds people are currently making (as if they want both, they can access both no matter on which side they are positioned), but would make these abilities fit the corresponding branches (Ascendance as Wind ability in the Wind / Lightning side of tree and PW as MW / Flame Shock generator in the Fire / MW generation side of the tree), as well as would allow to create builds that combine Feral Spirits with one of them instead and then putting mentioned in the previous post synergizing talents closer to each other would be helpful.
“I said my opinion. I stand by it and if people don’t see what I am seeing. then someone on the forums should not allow any more posts suggesting changes for the shaman class”
If Blizzard didn’t agree with you they should shut down the forums… that’s the reasoning you want to put forth here right now, really? It sounds like enhancement just isn’t the right class for you, you want things from over a decade ago and even then it was a meme and not serious. The shaman trees are exciting, not perfect, but good.
I’m curious if you’re coming to these assumptions just looking at the tree; or actually feel like you are making a build that “doesn’t work” because of placement.
In actually constructing trees, I’m not really seeing any issues getting down to any of the three 4-point capstone paths. Hot Hands gives you access to Feral and Ascendance and is basically required. Then for Single Target you’re taking EBlast and/or Imp. Stormbringer.
Also for single target, you have a real choice for your 20th point to unlock the final tier: between Improved Storm Bringer and Ice Strikes. You take Ice Strike if you want an extra filler spell, or you take storm bringer 2 if you don’t. But either way you have 10 points dropping to the final tier where you get your pick of two capstones and +2 points for Elemental Assaults / Frost Witch.
For reference here is the 20/30 point single-target build I’m looking at:
It is more the abilities that come out of branch theme:
Stormflurry being in the middle of Fire branch
PW being not in the Fire part, even though it has Flame Shock application and could be extended to Lava Burst for Enhancement (as suggested)
Ascendance being in Fire part even though it is definitely Air / Lightning part ability etc.
As somebody who is interested in taking both Ascendance and PW, my build takes them both, so their placement does not matter much for me - whatever side they both are I would need to pick the same branches and prerequisite talents to access them, so it is more for the themed parts and branches of the tree.
No, the issue is that if somebody would want to create a build that takes one of them alongside Elemental Spirits, he would need to scatter too much to receive useful talents. For example, if I wanted to create pure Fire / Earth build that takes right side talents, Primordial Wave and Elemental Spirits, them being scattered around the tree makes it harder and punishing for no reason.
So your criticism is that, if you want to take ZERO nature spells, for class-fantasy reasons (and don’t want to count Elemental Blast as a fire spell… which is it) you have to take 2 extra points: Storm Bringer 1 + Elemental Blast to get to Primordial Wave. That’s why yo don’t like the tree?
Counterpoint: what I said before, if they made vertical trees where everything you want was just in a straight line - there would be no interesting choices.
Right now, with the 20 points I recommended you have several interesting choices before you get down to 21+ tier.
Doomwinds - a 1 minute ability for single target
Improved Stormbringer - good if your rotation is “full” and have zero downtime.
Sundering - pretty nice to fill 1 gcd every 40 seconds, or if there’s an infrequent add phase.
Ice Strikes - if you have downtime in your rotation every ~15 seconds. Great choice. (there’s also some theorycraft out there that Hailstorm + Ice strikes might be good in pure single target just for the 100% damage increase, we’ll see)
Crash Lightning - if you need frequent filler -or- if the fight has an add phase.
Seems pretty cool as you get to basically pick TWO of those options above given the fight and your gcd use profile.
Yes, but it is better to be able to pick whatever talents you want to get to make your build, not the several ones needed simply because for some reason lower part of the tree is opposite to higher - it is wind / lightning left part and fire / MSW generation right part at the top and opposite at the bottom. Why should even be so, especially since the tree itself was designed to be split into these elemental branches and upper parts show that?
Do not confuse interesting choices with most likely just an end talent placement mistake. Moreover, if they swapped them, the number of interesting choices could only increase, as pure one-two elements builds would become more competitive with 3-4 elements builds, making the build variety bigger.