DPS self heals

No non hybrid should have healing. With that I’m done. Have a good rest of the week.

Lots of confident declarations, zero sound explanations to back them. You as well, happy holidays.

People this “unintelligent” actually exist, My God.

All pure dps specs should have either certain healing abilities pruned or have it at 50% when engaged in pvp combat. Or even better, actually properly tuned.

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Why?

Jesus… I’ll try my best to explain with an example. Your class has almost unlimited stuns, a silence and 2 incapacitates. Not to mention very high sustain damage and very high burst damage, on top of mortal strike. Edit, forgot about smoke bomb.

Now lets take something like a retribution paladin. They have 1 30sec cd stun that can be dispelled, and that’s it. 1 Sanc on a somewhat long cd that costs a talent, medium and leaning to bad sustained damage and very high burst. No mortal strike.

See the drastic difference? The lack of cc, mortal strike or ability to be disruptive is sometimes refered to as the “hybrid tax”, which is suposed to be compensated by their ability to offheal and have very long utility and defensive cds.

But what’s the point of that if a rogue has more reliable selfhealing/defense while keeping all the perks of a pure dps? If you want your self reliance to continue to be this strong then prune kidney shot, mortal strike and blind.

Nobody wants that to happen. I could take enhancement shaman as another exmaple but for the sake of my good mood I think this is enough.

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Ugh, specific examples have no place in this discussion. Rogue is kind of a busted class and should not be a representative for all pure DPS classes the same as paladin shouldn’t represent all hybrids. (Come on, a stun and that’s it? That’s what you reduce the entire ret spec to? :rofl:)

The question on the table, which no one has answered yet, is why should all non-hybrid classes have gimped self-heals or no self-healing at all as compared to all hybrid classes?

It’s a broad question. I don’t need another essay about how crimson vial is OP because you don’t have to cast it or how warlocks sacrifice no DPS to heal (even though drain life isn’t the filler anymore…).

I already answered with an example. Want me to use destro or demon hunters now?

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You realize that Death Strike procs Runic Corruption right?

No I really, really don’t.

Don’t answer with an example. Answer with an… answer. Why should we have bad/no self-healing? Because that’s how the game was a decade ago? Because all non-hybrids are more OP than all hybrids right now (as per your rogue to paladin example)?

The difference is that pure dps classes had some amazing defensive CDs to make up for the lack of self healing. Cloak/evasion/vanish are absolutely insane. They’ve had these since wrath as was pointed out. Difference is now you have no self heal tax.

It’s why we have these classes (combined with tank trinkets) that straight up don’t die. Okay so we give hybrids better defensives to make up for their week offheals and we just created another half a dozen people that don’t die.

I’m not in the camp that pure dps classes shouldn’t have self heals but man something right now has to give. Rmx is a prime example of two pure dps classes that have insane sustain, insane cc, insane defensive cds and insane damage. Any comp with a dk/destro/dh are exactly the same. Just have too much of everything. Homogeneous classes that can’t die doesn’t make for great gameplay.

As a fun side note… What hybrid is doing really well right now? Even ele is meh after lasso nerfs. Pretty sure we have a hybrid tax of our offheals sucking a** with zero compensation.

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Requires them to be in active combat and actually attacking the target, but the worse that it still also costs mana which the above problem still arises.

This is a proc chance that requires them to have spent 5 combo points to get a guaranteed proc, again requires you to engage in combat to do it.

Requires 4 globals of spending holy power to build the stack required to get the instant, which guess what? Requires being in active combat.
And you have 5 classes that can purge the stacks off never letting you get a proc.

Yet the top dps specs right now are warlock rogue and mage. The combined numbers of those 3 make up the next 7 dps specs.
You know what those 3 specs have in common? Incredible control, powerful pressure, and insane self sustainability.

Never said that. That’s how the design philosophy for arms warrior all tank and no heal and it seems to work just fine for them.
However because of the overtuned survivability of the 3 aforementioned specs they have to resort to healing tank trinkets like spores

Also back to this, this is a pve philosophy never been a pvp one.

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Monk, and that’s only because the comps it runs are with high pressure partners and the monk’s job is to be a gimped rogue.

And every spec ww partners with has better choices other than a ww that would be easier/stronger comps

Yeah I don’t even consider monk to be doing really well… They’re one of the few doing okay.

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Hmm sounds exactly like death strike, which is apparently insane. You describe the only the advantages of some abilities and only the disadvantages of others to suit your position.

Really punishes all those 4 combo point finishers ferals are tossing around, huh? Neglected to mention that it has no resource cost and doesn’t hurt DPS to use. Still ignoring that it’s usable on others. Continuing the trend of selectively evaluating abilities to make some sound better or worse than they are in reality.

The meta is what it is. It’ll shift next patch and again the following. The DESIGN. PHILOSOPHY. that pures should deal better damage is gone. If a couple of pures are sitting at the top, it isn’t because a team of developers mutually agreed to just make them better than other classes to account for… what exactly? Since we do have self healing now. Hybrid tax is gone.

I know. I’m posing a hypothetical to you that’s extremely similar to the one you’re supporting.

If it’s right for healer hybrids to have better self-healing than the rest then is it also right for tank hybrids to have better survivability? Why/why not?

I personally like a nice, slow TTK but some don’t and I respect that. Personally, I’d rather see healer throughput take a small hit- better to make healers less singularly influential than to make a bunch of classes even more reliant on healers than they already are by removing/gimping their self-healing. Playing an arms warrior for example feels like absolute garbage when there are no healers on your team or none within constant range of you.

I really don’t think crimson vial is the reason RMX might feel so tough to nail down… it certainly isn’t those sweet mage heals causing it. But I’m not an arena guy.

It’s the infinite resets you can’t punish

Dps should have zero self healing but have CD’s to counter damage

All healers should be brought up to druid pally levels

It would be nice to go back to that world. But Blizz doesn’t want a high learning curve so they removed some CDs and gave heals to specs and classes that didn’t have healing because new players were struggling with playing classes and specs with no heals.

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Except casting heals as an enhance takes both mana and maelstrom (if instant casting) as well as it’s a fixed amount.

Death strike when casting it procs rune generation abilities allowing them to therefore gain even more runic power making a perpetual cycle, shaman doesn’t have the same.

Those instanted casted heals take several gcds to get off and their effect is negligible overall compared to a single instant cast (let’s say 35k heal)

Like feral takes 5 combos and then them using bite or whatever the stun one is. At best that’s 4 gcds at worse thats 6, and that’s just the proc.

I am not ignoring at all. See above on how many gcds it takes to get a proc and how much it might heal for. In the amount of time it takes to get that measly 34k (being generous) 7 gcds guaranteed you have done more dmg than that.

There has been no balancing since 8.1 and even then the meta has basically only shifted at the bottom and the top has been top the whole xpac

I already said this with arms warriors being a prime example. They have zero healing but are hearty.

It’s a combination of things. Like I have listed before: it’s amazing pressure, control, and self sustainability.
No hybrid has all 3.

You hit the nail on the head here

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Great, let’s take crimson vial for example.

Pros:

  • Instant cast / can’t be interrupted
  • Doesn’t require a target or specific range
  • Heals for hearty amount

Cons:

  • Has an energy cost and will result in modest DPS loss
  • Has a 30 second cooldown / not spammable like many other heals
  • Heals over time, not instantly
  • Only usable on self

That’s what an honest evaluation looks like. Notice that both pros and cons are present. I didn’t list only the cons to make it look like it’s a worse ability than it really is to suit my narrative. I can make any comparison look skewed if I compare the best of one to the worst of another. This nonsense about non-hybrid heals having no downside is, well, nonsense.

First off, druids say hi. :wave: Second, there are more categories. Warlocks for example have outstanding control, survival, and pressure as you said, but no one’s going to accuse them of having even remotely passable mobility or support. They’re not blinking about and tossing freedoms/BoP’s to their pals. Well, healthstones and gate are pretty great, but you get the point. If you’re intentionally giving an incomplete picture, you’re showing bias to fit a position.

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And healing classes should not be able to wear a dps down one on one.