I’m going to assume you’re being trolling in the 2nd line since you were in the 1st line, so in that case… good one.
spec 2 slow and just going to make casuals do no damage
Gonna have to half agree with both of you here. While WW has always had a high APM (I mean they keep nerfing our resources on the grounds of GCD capping for christ’s sake), the APM has shifted more from management and more into the actual rotation itself. The APM of managing stuff like Chi Brew, old SEF, EE, TP buff, and TeB got turned into landing XBG’s crit window, burst windows, and burning RNG procs. The latter is certainly faster than what we had before because there is a lot of urgency now especially with other new additions that we’ve gotten to the spec, but old WW wasn’t slow.
Maybe we are having an issue of definitions? Windwalker has typically been toward the lower end of how many casts or actions per minute (CPM or APM). When people talk about a spec having low or high “downtime”, this is what they are most often talking about.
When talking about these numbers it’s generally button presses per minute, so times where we’re channeling FoF, SCk, or CJL of the past and future, that’s most often counted as 1, even though your character is dealing damage multiple times during those channels.
It’s typically hovered around 45-50 with times as low as 35-40 or as high as 55-60. Only Assassination Rogues are known to regularly be lower than WW. Some specs, and it’s often Warriors, have APMs or CPMs in the 75-80 range
Uptime and downtime would be better definitions for this. More of WW’s uptime was management before, and now it’s been pushed into the rotation. However, nerfing our resources in TWW to reduce GCD capping isn’t going to work where GCD capping happens the most. It’ll just make downtime for WW and kinda have us lean on RNG to fill in holes.
Potentially, but over the years I’ve seen quite a few definitions of “downtime”, and “uptime” often just means show well you can stick to a boss.
To illustrate my above points, we can get APM numbers from the SimCraft profiles. Currently the WW profile is at 54 compared to Prot Paladin and Prot Warrior at 88. 54 is higher than average for WW, but most specs are faster in DF than previously.
CPM is generally a slightly different number, but it’s rare a spec to be too different in those metrics relative to others. For example, my teams’s kill of Rashok, the WW that was in was at 54.4 and with our DH tank at 96.1.
Perhaps we should just use wordy blunt terms like “Amount of time we’re not waiting for energy.” Nerfing our resources decreases the amount of time we’re not waiting for energy and doesn’t solve the giant GCD cap we hit during our burst window.
Yea, they benefit from haste n what not and have stuff off GCD.
go eat some more sugar and complain about ur aching body. 35 is young. you just havn’t taken proper care of yourself. theres always tommorow
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Maybe my brain is just really good at separating off-gcd defensives from the ‘rotation’ but I don’t feel like this is a fair comparison. I really don’t feel like either Prot spec is especially frenetic, so I’m more curious what WW’s AMP looks like compared with other DPS specs.
This is easily disproved on simulationcraft. WW has always been near the bottom in terms of apm. Best case middle of the pack.
h ttps://simulationcraft.org/reports/DF4_Raid.html
I cant post links but this data is available every expansion on simulationcraft.
in the above link its found under table of contents > actions per minute / dps variance summary. WW is the lowest apm melee spec in the current tier.
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buddy were talking pvp. WW was made for pvp. you dont even use half ur tool kit in raids.
ww is a very high apm spec in pvp
Its not but you keep thinking what helps you sleep at night.
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Where in the following quote do you mention pvp?
The hilarious part, even if you did mention pvp, which you didn’t, ww is still not a high apm spec.
There is the objective APM and there is how the spec/class feels to play, and I think these are being conflated.
One of the reasons why WW monk feels fast is because of our mastery. A lot of these high APM specs not only benefit from haste (making it impossible for a fixed global spec to compete in APM) but they also press the same button multiple times in a row, consistently. Compared this this a WW is making new decisions on abilities every second (short of our channelling windows).
This makes it feel faster, which is fine by the way because I don’t think a spec needs to have high APM to feel like a fast paced spec.
What we WERE talking about is how the class FEELS on the beta, which right now has painful gaps due to being resource starved, short of some lucky RNG.
Unless there is a decision to change our resource generation/cost ratio situation, regardless of APM, it wont feel like a flowing martial artist.
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Yeah, it’s just one of those things that gets lost with a lack of a universal definition. Do you count defensives, movements, cooldowns? Does an ability with a 4s channel or cast time count as 1 action or 4? Do you include things like Power Infusion or Lust? If Lust, how long of a fight, since the longer the fight the smaller chunk is covered by Lust.
There are merits to most of the definitions, we just have to try to make sure we’re all talking about the same one
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I think this is an excellent point and not one that I’d really considered before. Because of the planning and balancing nature of the spec, there’s rarely time where you’re not pressing anything AND not trying to figure out what to press next. So it may lead to some people feeling like they’re always doing something, even if their fingers are not, or have the opposition opinion for the same reason.
Dude I think you put it borderline perfectly regarding APM and pacing for the spec.
That said, I don’t think our mastery specifically is as big a contributor to the speed of our pacing because it’s borderline impossible to mess up mastery on our important abilities and not hitting the same button twice is a pretty simple task. With what we have on live, I think a lot of the feeling of fast pacing comes prepping/managing resources for XBG windows, getting the most out of Skyreach, and burning off RNG procs. Sometimes all at the same time, which gets us to the point of GCD being too slow.
I for one both love and hate the way it is in retail right now. I love the number of buttons I am pushing and knowing how pushing those buttons work. Right now it feels satisfying.
I haven’t played beta so that is what it is.
But currently the only time I have to take a sip of water or pop a chip in my mouth is during fist of fury, outside of that I constantly push buttons though sometimes ( not often ) I end up starved for chi.
The way I look at it is spend gain chi until you run out then fists of fury as down time to regen chi. It’s fairly simple.
I think the current speed or apm feel good. If they slowed it down a little I believe it would feel just as good.
I know that when playing my prot pally and running 8 keys a week after spamming those 8 dungeons my fingers, wrist, and elbow hurt. However I can run 8 keys on my windwalker or resto shaman and that doesn’t happen.
Honestly, if they just changed some of the pathing in the talent tree this might help. allowing us to get our major cooldowns without having to take Combat Wisdom will give us an extra talent point to play with. or you can take it for a more simplified gameplay. personally, not having expell harm as an active ability doesnt feel right. if they insist we play with Combat wisdom, then i do agree the cost of jab needs to be reduced. maybe it has a fluctuating energry cost based on the combat wisdom buff being active of not.
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In updating the WW tree, Blizz cut a lot of the bloat from it even though we still have garbage like Touch of the Tiger. It’s a good thing, but in doing so, Blizz added a lot of what feels like will be essential. I don’t mind that we pick up Combat Wisdom for CD access. I don’t think re-pathing our tree would be the correct choice in terms of point management and IMO it doesn’t do enough.
I think certain talents should be shuffled from the WW tree (and the MW and BrM trees) onto the main monk tree. For all the cleaning Blizz has done with the WW spec tree, they still left a lot of garbage and crap on the main monk tree. Therefore, we have a lot of room to work with and strength to share with the other monk specs.
RJW, Invoker’s Delight, DoCJ, and SBT should be moved to the monk class tree. All of the monk specs have RJW and SBT (MW’s SBT has a little variation because MW stuff). MW and WW have access to Invoker’s and DoCJ, and BrM would likely benefit from having access to those two talents. And from the MW and BrM trees we can pull potentially what’s left of Healing Elixirs (a spell that used to be accessible to all monk specs) and slap it onto the main monk tree for better sustain across all the monk specs.
In doing this, we save several talent points across all three monk specs and make all three of them stronger as well. And it might reduce the chance of a nerf because it might bone two other specs if Blizz nerfs one of those talents because of one spec.