<span class="truncated">...</span>
Ignorance must be bliss for you.
Back in vanilla, warriors used leather, paladins used cloth, and that was normal.
The reason this is an issue, is because you can't tell if someone is ninja looting to give to someone else.
With a 2 hour loot window, you can easily transfer an item to someone else after a dungeon and none would know.
How are you going to blacklist someone that looks like the item he won is useful for him? that's nonsensical, again there is no way to tell if the item he won isn't going to be traded to someone else later on.
Well then perhaps no GM services to correct any loot issues then?
Despite popular belief these things cost money.
Perhaps a new purchase price and seperate subscription to offset the costs associated with correcting loot issues?
There is a simpler option, that would take very little effort on their part, even though i would prefer loot trading to be gone, this is at least better.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769709310
Loot sharing is a feature from Wrath of the Lich King, so I believe it should have no place in Classic.
It goes beyond simple QoL changes that could be done with an add-on, like the features being kept in the mailbox interface.
(I am opposed to those types of changes, as well.)
In my opinion, any feature or system that was not present during the 1.x life span should not be considered for Classic whatsoever.
11/06/2018 12:23 PMPosted by
Tuathaa
11/06/2018 08:28 AMPosted by
Snear
...
Your post doesn't make sense. We're talking about ninjaing which is the problem with loot trading. People don't usually post that they're going to ninja an item in the group loot rules. Instead they'll respectably say it's on reserve.
No the post is about someone pugging a group and 3 or 4 other people rolling need on an item for one of their guildies.
What the op doesnt realize is that gear is a known in classic. Where to go what to farm is a know also and reserve groups are going to be made if it comes down to that scenario.
I don't know about gear in classic? Inspect me bro.
Groups will have a hard time filling if certain pieces are reserved. Not reserving, then getting friends/guildies to roll with you will increase the likelihood of them getting the item they want.
There might be a Furry warrior who already has a HoJ and never equips it the entire dungeon run. He then rolls need when it drops to give to his fellow rogue friend. People say grats and never know that he traded to his friend afterwards.
This is going to happen mostly on rend/jed runs and lava runs. Calling it now.
11/06/2018 08:22 AMPosted by
Tuathaa
Dont pug?
I fail to understand why people feel forced to pug groups that they dont agree with the group rules.
Which is what all these anti loot trading complaints are at their core.
This everyone gets a gold star for logging in mentality from current retail really needs to go away
So you're saying kill the entire pug community because of a feature that isn't needed? Brilliant.
This change is entirely from the standpoint to alleviate gms, not make the game better. There isn't a problem in the first place if they say tickets for dungeon/raid loot will be ignored.
So then, everyone just roll need on everything and then the winner sells it to the guy who needs it.
11/07/2018 12:12 AMPosted by
Gattz
11/06/2018 08:22 AMPosted by
Tuathaa
Dont pug?
I fail to understand why people feel forced to pug groups that they dont agree with the group rules.
Which is what all these anti loot trading complaints are at their core.
This everyone gets a gold star for logging in mentality from current retail really needs to go away
So you're saying kill the entire pug community because of a feature that isn't needed? Brilliant.
This change is entirely from the standpoint to alleviate gms, not make the game better. There isn't a problem in the first place if they say tickets for dungeon/raid loot will be ignored.
there is an issue with that. Removing loot trading will take effort to remove, since it's already added in. You realize you are asking blizzard to
1; backpeddle
2; make an effort
3: admit they were wrong
These are things that blizzard absolutely won't accept, so think of something else.
It has to be a solution that costs no effort, and lets blizzard be right.
If it can't fulfill those conditions, then no chance in hell.
really looking forward to re visiting classic wow.
seriously couldn't care less about loot trading. No big deal, plus it is 9 months away lol. lets hope they get the important stuff right
"DON'T PUG" is not an option in vanilla. It's the mindset of community-less retail WoW.
PuGs liked going to guild runs. They could do well or mesh well with the people there and maybe they'd want to join the guild. I'm not sure how this concept is lost on people? It happened all the time.
The only people defending loot trading are the ones who plan on abusing it. It will make gearing up a lot easier, because a group of 4 friends can increase the chances of each one of them winning an upgrade over the PuG. They are disguising their intent behind bull!@#$ excuses that they hope we buy.
11/07/2018 04:29 AMPosted by
Kamlyn
The only people defending loot trading are the ones who plan on abusing it.
I’m not sure that’s true, but a lot of valid points have been brought up in this thread that clearly make loot trading a game-ruining feature.
The vanilla system was pretty restrictive, and I think it would be easy enough to reproduce using technology. Some possabilities include:
1. In 5 mans, let players submit a request to trade, and require all group members to agree to it, like a ready check.
2. In raids, let players appeal to the raid leader to trade loot before the raid has disbanded, and then announce trades in chat to all players who saw the loot.
In vanilla, GMs kept records of loot trades, and would refuse players that requested too many. This could be simulated by limiting the number of loot trades to 2 per month per player, so that aggressive loot trading becomes extremely risky.
This solves: Need roll abuse, backroom deals on raid loot, and wouldn’t change the look and feel of the vanilla item interface.
11/06/2018 09:05 AMPosted by
Ristra
11/06/2018 09:01 AMPosted by
Kosumi
At first I thought it was no big deal, because it was just removing the human element of making a GM swap it around if someone was assigned the wrong item. But as people have pointed out, it’s more of a problem in situations where friends might “gang up” to all roll on something that only one of them actually needs, or in extreme situations where people might roll need to try and get people to buy something back off them. Those are both pretty significant departures from how vanilla worked, so the 2 hour trading window definitely needs to be reconsidered.
I would assume that the main use case for item swap tickets in vanilla was in a master looter situation, for when the wrong person was assigned an item. If so, I would propose that the 2 hour trade window should only be enabled in situations where master looter is also enabled.
If there’s edge cases that this doesn’t cover, just let those be handled through tickets instead. Completely automating the process is not worth risking a reasonably big change to the social dynamics of loot.
TL;DR; loot trading as-is can be gamed, so it should either be locked down in a way that prevents this, or kept out entirely.
The counter, that Blizzard pointed out as their concerns, is the increased CS load.
If you have a suggestion that doesn’t increase that load you’ll get more traction.
It’s sort of tricky to conceive of an alternative that wouldn’t increase CS load in some way. In particular, I struggle to think of a way to automate loot correction that doesn’t involve the potential for abuse or other distinctly un-vanilla interactions.
The only thing that I can come up with is that maybe they could make the behaviours in question into ToS violations (still a CS load, but much lower), but that would be extremely unintuitive based on the way the system presents itself.
That’s why I put forward the suggestion that they should only enable loot trading in a Master Looter environment. It’d hopefully cut out the bulk of the work for CS reps, and people who really really needed to trade loot in another situation could still fall back on making a ticket.
It’s very simple to get rid of loot trading and not have increased customer service load.
Simply don’t allow it. When you click need on a BOP item you get a second confirmation window that pops up asking this action will bind it to you. If you are dumb enough to hit it twice you are either,
A. A Ninja
B. So terrible I wouldn’t group with you again. This will very quickly be solved by the community
So basically the lesson is learn to play.
ITT People who never had to deal with Ninja Looting in classic. lol
Some good points being brought up here. A couple scenario's i can already see happening.
1. Group leader : Loot can be bid on. Group or even raid lead can have a bid loot system. Highest bidder gets the item.
2. Friends needing items for friends . I am all for not allowing people to need on items they cant use (i.e rogues cant need on 2handers or other class specific gear).
I'm cool with blizz implementing the trade loot. But if it becomes a problem I hope blizz listens to the community like they say they will
11/06/2018 08:22 AMPosted by
Tuathaa
Dont pug?
You will likely almost never set foot in 5 man content with that mentality.
Puging is a big part of vanilla even if it's not the goto for 40man content.
11/07/2018 08:31 AMPosted by
Nuju
ITT People who never had to deal with Ninja Looting in classic. lol
This is a new form of ninjaing for classic.
Agree with no loot trading and no sharding. Gonna suck running with rando's at low lvl's where you haven't found a good guild yet if that's the case.
11/06/2018 08:14 AMPosted by
Pekel
but I'm sorry: customer service is what made this a great game 15 years ago.
WTF? The only time I spoke to customer service was when I was stuck so bad that the anti-stuck feature didn't work. Great? It would have been 100% unnecessary for me if the anti-stuck feature wasn't just a hearthstone, because as it turns out, you can't use that thing while dead.
I respectfully disagree, sir. What made the game great was the game and it was because they handed you a world with relatively few rules and said "go f*ing nuts."
I just don't understand why loot trading is the solution to the problem they are trying to solve, i.e., accidentally needing, or accidentally awarding loot. Sure it solves that problem, while creating additional problems. Wouldn't a simple confirmation dialog work just a well? If someone blows through that, then it wasn't accidental and they lose server rep. Done.
My suggestion below
Issue:
Players may misclick loot by mistake with no way to remediate the error sans customer service intervention and loot trading enabled in Classic may encourage widespread ninja looting behavior.
Group Loot Solution:
When selecting "Need" on an item, a second prompt will appear stating the item is BoP and will not be tradeable. The player will then need to confirm by:
a) Typing "Confirm" in a text prompt before the button can be clicked to finalize the roll for the item or
b) Holding the button to confirm for 5 seconds (a bar can fill up to show progress to completion)
Pick whichever solution is easiest to implement.
Master Loot Solution:
When selecting the player to distribute the item to, a second prompt will appear stating the item will be given to player "X" and become untradeable (you can have their class symbol appear next to their name) to confirm that is the correct player. The master looter will then need to confirm giving the loot to that player by:
a) Typing "Confirm" in a text prompt before the button can be clicked to finalize the distribution or
b) Holding the button to confirm for 5 seconds (a bar can fill up to show progress to completion)
Pick whichever solution is easiest to implement.
Result:
Players will be deemed fully responsible for their actions-- the community can then decide how to handle the player's actions as having to type out confirmation or holding the button to confirm prevents the "oops, I misclicked" excuse. This will also discourage ninja looting behavior due to the requirements to make a mistake.
This process is similar to having to type "DELETE" to confirm deleting a character.
Thoughts? #changes