"Dogmatism bad" is hackneyed in WoW, give us something else

As far as I know, the angle they’re going for with Yrel and co. returning as villains (or as I call it “Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo - starring AU Draenei and Naaru”) is a “dogmatism is bad” message.

The problem is this story has already been done multiple times in WoW. The biggest example of the dangers of dogmatism we’ve seen so far is the Void. We fought the Cult of Twilight’s Hammer in Cataclysm and we’ve seen, fought and killed dogmatic followers of the Old Gods and Void in every expansion since.

There’s also been dogmatic followers of the Titans - such as Algalon from Wrath and Odyn from Legion onwards - the reason Odyn made his Halls of Valor is because he disagreed with the other Watchers making the Dragon Aspects as he was dogmatic that only the Titanforged can get things done. Not to mention other groups on a much smaller scale, like the Druid group D.H.E.T.A.

We’ve also explored that recently in Bastion’s story arc. Devos and the Forsworn went against dogmatic obedience to the Archon’s system. The Forsworn were wrong to try and destroy it, but were right that it wasn’t foolproof and needed to be re-examined. The Archon realized her system had problems that needed to be fixed, changes are being made though the system is still there, end of story.

We’ve even had Light dogmatism already with the Scarlet Crusade; their unquestioning obedience led them to fanaticism and also made them pawns of Nathrezim (ironic that they’re being set up as major players in the cosmic game now). Plus there’s very few dogmatic Light worshippers. The Scarlet Crusade are practically wiped out. Turalyon has become more open-minded as the story progresses, Calia, Faol and Velen aren’t fanatical plus we haven’t seen that from Liadrin or any Tauren Warbraves or Zandalari.

So in light (pun intended) of the above argument, it’s a bad idea to have a “Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo - starring AU Draenei and Naaru” expansion to preach - yet again - against dogmatism (oh the irony) because it has already been done many times in WoW alone.

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I’m not sure if I agree with the notion that dogmatism/fanaticism should necessarily be treated positively itself, but I wouldn’t mind seeing more dogma and fanaticism directed at PvE factions. The thing about the Scarlet Crusade (and the Brotherhood of the Light, in fact) was that they were fanatics, but as a consequence were really really good at fighting Scourge and frankly in the case of the Scarlet Crusade they would have made powerful allies if the dreadlord influence could be more thoroughly rooted out.

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I’m not saying dogmatism/fanaticism should be treated positively, I’m saying it’s a bad idea to do this story with Yrel and co because it’s already been done many times.

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I actually wouldn’t mind spending an entire expansion dedicated to killing light drooling Draeni and Naaru; it shows that the threat is bigger than some fanatical church in Lordaeron. Light themed big bads would be cool.

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The more fundamental problem is that religion in WoW, particularly religions devoted to the Light, haven’t really been explored at all despite their overwhelming prominence.

The Church of the Holy Light has been omnipresent throughout human civilization for like 3000 years and we haven’t even been told who leads it, much less the particulars of its philosophy or its relationship with the political establishment. Ditto with the Draenei and (to a lesser extent) Night Elves.

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I would like to see what you’re saying Ainhin. Nuanced critique of religion is rare in fiction. It’s usually one extreme (proselytizing) or the other (defamation).

The fact that religions devoted to the Light in WoW haven’t been explored and now we’re getting an expansion with Light baddies bodes ill for the idea that they - especially Yrel’s group - will be anything other than one-dimensional mustache-twirling fanatics.

If there is one thing I’ve accepted its that Blizzard is fond of repeating the exact same story beats over and over.

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Well that is partially the point. Warcraft is a cycle, a cycle we keep hoping we break but we never do.

“NOOO U CAN’T HAVE A SET OF MORAL BELIEFS THAT’S DOING A NOT 100 WHOLESOME KEANU DOGMATISM!”

This is wows story from now on, get used to it.

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Just admit that you don’t want an alliance-themed villain.

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Thadeus, I think the entire forums at this point are aware on your stance on Light Bad expansion.

You don’t want to see this story, we get it.

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As long as we get to participate in the badness a bit before our siege of stormwind raid I’d like that very much.

I understand your complaint is mostly driven by some issue concerning Yrel in particular. But where would you propose her story goes, if she is designed to be a villain?

Guldan and Palpatine are examples of unrepentant villains who do what they feel must be done to get their way. I don’t tire of those sorts, if they are fun.

But then we have folks like Elisande - who is more misguided and prevented from seeing a possible “good” future, and when proven wrong, she grants you a boon to finish the quest.

If you don’t want Yrel to be some dogmatic zealot that we must stop… would you rather have her be a faithless manipulator with no real love for anything? Like Sylvanas, except without the excuse of having her soul split?

Is your objection to Yrel being villain batted? Or is your objection to what you feel might be her cause going forward?

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In a hypothetical light crusade expansion, whose to say Yrel is even entirely in control of her actions?

We know Xe’ra is already brainwashing Mag’har and her main universe self tried to do something similar to Illidan, whose to say she’s even entirely cognizant of her actions?

Hell, would it not be reasonable storytelling to have part of the turning point of said expansion be freeing the Mag’har/Draenei from Xe’ra’s control?

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My objection is against Yrel and the AU Draenei being villan-batted, that this might be a one-dimensional author axe-grinding expansion (I don’t mind thoughtful critique of religion in fiction… but most writers go for one extreme or the other) plus rehashing a cliché story arc - and one that WoW already used, at that - for an entire expansion.

It’s telling that Blizzard is so desperate for another Light bad guys story, they’re resorting to time travel and AU shenanigans in addition to villain batting ( having Illidan job MU Xe’ra wasn’t enough, they seem primed - pun intended - to bring in an AU version to villain bat). And talk about a weak boss fight; how would AU Xe’ra if we fight her be a better boss fight than Argus or the Lich King considering she could get one-shotted by one Demon Hunter?

Lightforging isn’t brainwashing, that’s some fans headcanon. Xe’ra tried to Lightforge Illidan by force, not mind-control him, same with the AU Mag’har.

I actually agree with the OP’s point. I’m getting super-bored with the “dogmatism is bad” theme, and I’m really not looking forward to the inevitable “Light Is Not Good” expansion as a result. (Especially if it’s all leading up to a reenactment of the Babylon 5 Shadow War, as I’ve predicted elsewhere. Been there, done that, want to see something new.)

ETA: Another interesting thread:

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