I lol’d hard.
You make wild assumptions that competency in one dungeon translates to others. It does not. Clearly based on how many people are complaining about SD.
You wouldn’t know since we have no experience, but tyrannical is actually easier to get KSM. It is only higher keys where it swaps to fortified being push weeks.
I said I wouldn’t respond, but you have some wild assumptions that are born out of thin air.
I mean, if you’re not willing to talk about what exactly you disagree with, or what you see differently and why, there really isn’t much conversation to be had. About all you’re going to be left with is “We have different experiences”.
Like … for example, where I said this, if your personal experience is more like “Well, actually, I get 15 of these every time I list a key on the Group Finder”, that would clearly have explained some difference in opinion, and then we might have explored why, hypothetically:
That’s clearly a different scenario, but frankly from everything I can tell, this is not common at all to the point of being an absurd consideration.
If what you’re about is trying to hunt someone’s history/logs or whatever to sidestep the discussion, or insert an agenda you think they should have, *shrug
You make wild assumptions that competency in one dungeon translates to others. It does not. Clearly based on how many people are complaining about SD.
Well, no, that’s not an assumption I was making there at all. In the next point, I specifically even went into the different dungeons aspect. That simply set a baseline to get into more complexity from, e.g. that we’re talking about a player who has hands and can do damage/plan routes, has experience with the dungeon’s mechanics, whatever baseline expectation is required for their class or role. It served an appropriate starting point to then go down difference scenarios in the following bullet points, that’s all.
If anything, the actual assumption there is “Players shouldn’t be learning in +15”.
You wouldn’t know since we have no experience, but tyrannical is actually easier to get KSM. It is only higher keys where it swaps to fortified being push weeks.
The point there wasn’t Tyrannical vs Fortified, it was variation in affix combinations, and dungeon difficulty, making some “runs” mean more than others.
Incidentally, in my experience, I’ve seen more runs struggle/brick on handling harder bosses on Tyrannical than anything else. Not that the entire run is harder, but that the pass/fail becomes starkly focused, and that then creates a setback.
Where do you guys get all this time to argue about this stuff? TBH, Blizzard doesn’t care what any of you think and whatever changes anyone would like to see applied they have proven very recently that the only thing they will give a discussions like this one is the the big middle finger.
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Look back at all the patch notes on dungeon nerfs, tank buffs, loot increases, valor ect. All of that came from people talking on the forums and other platforms. What you added to this thread is absolutely nothing.
Your not wrong lol it’s all fun for me!
Again, we’re referring to top runs, right? I just want to clarify that because (again), expanding specific dungeons and seeing a ton of untimed keys doesn’t indicate that the particular player is bad at their particular role.
Yes, this whole thing has been about top scoring run. Not untimed runs that are below your best.
Yes we have different experiences. You two chested a 5 plaguefall in January once… I’d say our experiences are different LMAO.
Yep, it’s been “the highest scoring run” from all the relevant places I can tell.
Where do you guys get all this time to argue about this stuff? TBH, Blizzard doesn’t care what any of you think and whatever changes anyone would like to see applied they have proven very recently that the only thing they will give a discussions like this one is the the big middle finger.
Yeah, I don’t think anyone is delusional enough to think this involves any care or change by Blizzard lol. At best, they’ll read the Chains of Domination PTR forums right now, and probably ignore most of that anyway. The Torghast changes are … something.
If anything, this new scoring system was always going to be “A worse version of Raider IO with a worse UI to boot”.
Look back at all the patch notes on dungeon nerfs, tank buffs, loot increases, valor ect. All of that came from people talking on the forums and other platforms.
I mean, that’s hugely debatable. Most of that was conveyed to Blizzard even before in Beta, then on PTR, then for months on Live, and consequently ignored. If anything, chances are it came from them observing players quitting/failing to engage with content, and then trying to bandaid a reason to keep them grinding.
For example, while bringing back Valor was a common suggestion, it’d be delusional to suggest that anyone was thinking of (or desired) the current iteration of Valor as something they wanted implemented. There was huge negative feedback on the 9.0.5 PTR for its flaws that was then also ignored. People talking on the forums and other platforms who mentioned Valor were clearly talking about something more akin to previous “Valor” systems.
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The thing is that Sosari seems to think that having a bunch of untimed 15s is worse than having all timed 14s and no untimed 15s, whereas in reality they are exactly the same thing.
Why else would you specifically say having untimed runs as your highest run for a dungeon is “a red flag?” The alternative is that you just leave if you don’t time.
This is a made up reasoning. Top teams have an insane number of untimed keys. I’m sure you can find a moron or 2 who thinks this way, but it’s far more likely that people who leave no longer think it’s worth their time. Whether because they wanted to time for score or because they feel it would take longer to finish this run then the next.
Keys. Are. Not. Ruined.
They are simply downgraded. If you want to up your chances of success, build better groups or find people who care about your progress. If you’re going to take the lazy route of pugging, expect set backs.
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If you’re pumping high keys than untimed runs are a waste of your time and most groups usually mutually agree to disband or drop their key down a level if they realize they’re not timing it. Having a failed run on your report looks bad if people look you up because they may think you don’t have enough capability to finish a key at that level.
It’s also a waste of time a lot of times to run keys you’ve already completed (especially at a lower level). If I have a +19 key I’ve already timed than I’m probably not going to run it if I already timed a +20 on it, especially if its a dead key. I have 5 out of 8 timed all +20 so I’m only interested in running the last 3 I haven’t timed…
Nobody pumps high keys on Tyrannical week because I watch the M+ community I’m in (and guild) go from running +20-22 keys on fort week to only doing enough +14/15s for their GV on Tyrannical week.
Maybe if we got rewarded more points for running keys on hard affix weeks it’d be more worth it, but right now it’s not.
The bad affix combinations and Tyrannical are the two main culprits of the shifting M+ activity levels. We only have 1 week a month that is “push week” and the other 3 are usually not push weeks.
I agree. While I am not at the +20 range, I can hit 16 or 17s on fort weeks with my group. On Tyrannical? Yeah one 14 HoA (two easy bosses, having a Venthyr makes that place a joke with well times gargoyles, lots of ways to plan your route) for my GV and I am out.
What I am afraid are how these two scores going to be calculated. Knowing Blizz, they will add more emphasis on Tyrannical giving bigger points than Fortified. It also doesn’t help that even on some Fortified Weeks the affixes are beyond frustrating (Looking at you Necrotic/Grievous as well as Sanguine on mobs that can’t be kicked/love to stay still).
It is going to be the same crap from last season if not worse with the nitpicking if people abandon RIO and just use the Blizzard one. It still isn’t solving the problem of finding quality players (especially on Alliance side where the numbers are falling down). M+ just punishes everyone. From tanks who mess up routes, healers OOMing due to stupid affixes and dps not meeting the checks needed due to the insane amount of extra hps the Bosses have on Tyrannical. I had more failed keys on Mists this week due to weak dps on the first boss.
Most dps can barely fly with 3.4k-4k on Fort Weeks however that stuff is weak sauce on Tyrannical weaks. If you got trash dps on some killer bosses like… all of Sanguine depths you just kill the key because you run out of cooldowns and the boss just vomits all over your team.
It really depends on when you’re not timing it though. If you’re obviously not timing it half way through then sure. But if it’s a situation like, you were on time and then someone didn’t kill their platform add on Muehzala, then not spending the extra 1 minute to kill the boss and get the loot/vault completion means you spent 43 minutes there for absolutely nothing. Which is an even bigger waste of time than just spending an extra minute to finish the key.
While some higher key PUGs may disband or drop it a level, it’s actually rare. As a lot of the time they’re doing the run for practice, testing new tricks or strategy. You don’t get to 2k IO without failing keys, that’s not how it works at all.
Keys above 15 aren’t designed to be PUG’d, they can be and I have done it. Just know that Blizzard never built it with PUGs in mind at those high levels.
I’ve seen plenty of teams pushing on both weeks. Yeah, there are a lot that think Tyrannical is just a waste of time, but there are certainly folks that still push.
THIS I strongly agree with. Mind boggling to me why people would leave at this point.
I agree! The highest keys I have completed this season have been on tyrannical. Although, if I pushed harder on fortified weeks I don’t think that would be the case, but I t’s still doable in the 20ish range. I also find it very valuable to play on the hard affix weeks a lot, think of it as high level practice for the easier weeks. I have taken this approach since M+ started (mostly because I’m addicted and play all the time regardless) but it has made me a substantially better player imo
As other people have pointed out, it hugely depends, but also even if you’re pushing high keys, there are always secondary goals people will have. If you’re 3 mins away from the end, those 3 minutes is still a completion, and one less run for the Vault, or another shot at a mount, or that BiS trinket that you still haven’t gotten to drop after 35 runs.
I agree! The highest keys I have completed this season have been on tyrannical. Although, if I pushed harder on fortified weeks I don’t think that would be the case, but I t’s still doable in the 20ish range. I also find it very valuable to play on the hard affix weeks a lot, think of it as high level practice for the easier weeks. I have taken this approach since M+ started (mostly because I’m addicted and play all the time regardless) but it has made me a substantially better player imo
Beyond that, there are also RL considerations that affect how people play, especially with an aging WoW playerbase.
If I had the spare time and mood last weekend to do keys (not specifically talking about last weekend here, just an example), that’s when I’m pushing, affixes be damned. This next week might not be an option because of a work trip, the week after might not because of some family stuff; people often juggle work, relationships, dates, children, etc., so they’re going to commit to playing when they can play - some people have the freedom to adjust those, but many don’t.
And for those who raid as well, they’re already committing 9 or whatever hours a week their raid schedule is, so spare time can be even more of a premium.
Incidentally,
Considerations like ^ above are a big factor for why people pug. Given that pugging tends to mean more trying to “vet” strangers, adjusting to language barriers, playstyles, more time/work repeating because of higher likelihood of mistakes, etc., compared to something like tagging along with guildies, IDK that I’d call pugging “the lazy route”.
Which takes more effort:
Joining a guild that does m+
Building a m+ group
Making friends
Grabbing 4 strangers off an app board