And if he hadn’t done that, do you think she would have gone on to do all the banshee queen stuff?
That because sometimes a bad thing doesn’t work it never does?
Yes. That is the point I was making.
It isn’t what sounds stupid here.
You have all the elements here but stubbornly pretend they don’t connect.
It depends entirely upon what course she decides to take for herself.
Which is to say I don’t know what she would have done, because I don’t know how the world would have changed, and can only speculate.
Just like you.
That because some people cannot overcome the adversity with which they’re faced and fall to vice does not mean they are not responsible for the actions they commit.
And it’s irrelevant because one has to choose to act upon it to begin with in either case.
A person can be 99% likely to do something, and still just not do it, because in the end it is their choice.
Because there’s nothing to connect.
Arthas is not responsible for her actions in any way shape or form after she was liberated from the will of the Lich King, and so bears no guilt for them.
Sylvanas is the only one at that point that is responsible for Sylvanas’ actions, and so bears the guilt for them, because she then has agency.
How many times do I have to say I’m not saying that before you get that point?
Again. He’s not responsible for her actions.
He is responsible for his part in shaping her into the being that would do those things. His actions and their consequences are his responsibility.
Yeah its super plausible that living Sylvanas would do all those same things as a living breathing ranger general with an intact soul and ability to feel emotions.
Incredibly plausible.
As many as you must until you realize guilt to responsibility equates.
Which I’ve never contested.
He’s responsible for what he did, just as she’s responsible for what she did.
Apparently to some that’s misogyny.
Who but you said she would do all the same things?
I mean, I’m still waiting for you to get I’m talking about guilt for different things done.
Yes you have, or at least whenever I spell out what he’s responsible on you change the topic to what Sylv did.
Because what Sylvanas did is on her and isn’t something for which Arthas is responsible or for which he has or ought have any guilt.
Find me where I said that. I specifically said they should both share the same fate(whether that be damnation or redemption). Because Sylvanas of all people has gone and implied the only difference between her and the Lich King is she works for the Horde.
Yes, yes, because obviously Ranger General Sylvanas was clearly on the path to naturally become the banshee queen all on her own.
When the Ranger General wrested her agency and will back from the Lich King’s control, she did go on to do the things that she did.
After massive amounts of physical and psychological torture, and being raised into undeath, which canonically does change a person’s personality.
And, as I said and have been saying, went on to do the things she did, manifesting her will into the physical world through action.
And as I’ve been saying, without Arthas’ influence on her, she would not have gone on to do those things.
She did the things. He made her.
it’s almost like a stupidly literal view of “responsibility” doesn’t have much to say for itself and in fact only can repeat the same talking point without much constructive or salient thought
He didn’t.
She chose to do what she did.
She could have chosen otherwise, but she didn’t.
So once again, you’re saying a Sylvanas with no Arthas would have gone on to do the same things.
No, that’s only you.
I’m saying she decided to take the courses of action which she did after she had her agency back, not apropos of nothing naturally but ultimately they were her decisions.
So, that Arthas’ actions had an influence on her later actions?
Which she had to elect to allow to influence her.
Hence she has sole responsibility, and guilt, for her actions.
Or do you not believe she had that choice?
Have you read a single post I’ve made?
Sylvanas made her choices and owns them. Arthas owns the fact that he played a part in shaping the Sylvanas that would make those decisions.