It is not wrongthink to use bad faith argument tactics. I’m trying to get you to not use bad faith argument tactics where you willingly misrepresent opposing arguments, accuse others of things you actually do, refuse to engage in actual discussion with the points made, then make irrelevant points to try and turn the discussion in a direction where you might be able to claim victory through some non sequitur.
You are more than welcome to think wrongly.
rofl but no tho.
I’ve never once told you to shut up. I’ve never once told you not to question new lore. I’ve never once told you to accept the new lore.
This is the non sequitur argument I’m talking about. Literally nobody has told you to do any of this, but you insist they did just for the sake of pretending you’ve won.
The person who, thus far, has kept ignoring relevant lore information I posted accuses me of bad faith arguments?
You use a lot of words to say little in that comment. And you’re not attacking my evidence, but instead only attacking the person making the argument. A sure sign you’ve lost the argument.
I never said you told me to shut up, I said that’s how your attitude to me comes across.
You’re just projecting at this point, but you do you.
You have ignored relevant lore informatrion since my first post. Instead you went ahead and discounted nearly everything you did bother to address with baseless accusations from stage one.
Yes, you’re using bad faith arguments.
Try harder friend.
Because I did in the first post and you literally ignored it.
You claimed the Titans were never said to be benign, and that this retcon to their altruism doesn’t go against pre-established lore. I quote and link a source of WoW lore that clearly states they were and that it does. You keep ignoring it.
But you go ahead and pretend that it’s not a retcon if you want. Pretend there’s no previous lore backing my argument. Go and enjoy your fantasy. Have a good day.
You have ignored most of the things I stated in my initial post here. You immediately made bad faith arguments and accusations. You established from the go that you were not here to have a discussion.
That’s on you, Thad. You always do this when confronted with actual lore that contradicts your chosen beliefs.
It’s not a gotcha moment when people engage with you at the level you’re engaging with them.
You still need to learn what the word retcon means, because you have been misusing it since you showed up.
Considering Warcraft 3 lore literally states the Titans were “pure-hearted”, “benevolent” and “altruistic”, I’d say yes, they were good guys. But you don’t have to take my word for it, see for yourself.
I’ll be honest and admit I’m biased as I was never really a fan of titan lore to begin with. I like your typical fantasy stuff like dragons, elementals, dryads, etc
I don’t hate it or anything, it’s just not my cup of tea
But that’s the thing right : it’s not that every outcome is equally bad/good, it’s just that most outcomes are bad for some people, good for others. Moral relativism and nihilism are two different things. Taking the example of the Primalists here : a world trapped in a state of permanent elemental chaos would sure be a really bad outcome for the mortal races, but for the Elementals and Proto-Dragon ? That’s just the type of world that birthed them. The one that fits them the most. Which of course doesn’t change anything to the fact that from a mortal perspective it is absolutely right and legitimate to fight against such an outcome.
Same thing with the Light really. It is completely okay that Humans and Draenei consider the Light to be the one true path as well as a purely benevolent force. What’s not okay is enforcing this analysis of the Light on all the races and making it an objective truth. In other words, let each group fight for what it believes. Let the truths clash. That’s what good Warcraft fiction is to me.
I find it weirder they appear to be doing the opposite for the Old Gods. It’s so hard not to picture the Black Empire as exactly as advertised given the actions of the imprisoned Old Gods we have seen and now they’re saying the Titans lied about how bad it was? It didn’t exactly seem like a utopia when we went there later either.
I don’t think that anyone is trying to sell the black empire as utopia, but Odyn also wanted to paint it as a universally chaotic and evil era so no one got the bright idea that Black Empire 2.0 was a good idea. Which, the Twilight’s Hammer cult still came about but A for effort I guess.
Razageth is the villian of this arc, even though they have a point about free will, they ultimately have a vision that would force chaos on all of us or she would kill us all.
Blizzard always tosses out these moral conundrums but ultimately we decide on a middle ground. Absolute order is bad because it eliminates free will and creates oppression. Ultimate chaos is bad because it consumes, and if left unchecked it will consume everything.
Wow is currently playing with the Order is not Good trope, but it’s just a trope. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrderIsNotGood
Demonized seems a stretch. Yeah they’ve done things we don’t agree with - in hindsight - but the Black Empire doesn’t sound fun. The chaotic elemental war zone doesn’t sound fun. The representatives of both of these outcomes have been … less than friendly.
A handful of mutated horror shows that warped reality and perceptions just to bring about a reality covered by Zerg creep, tons of insects, and tentacles as far as the multitudes of eyes can see. Hard pass.
Or the friendly collection of elemental lords who have tried to … generally do evil things to us with their elements. And now the elements have sent their new emissary, Stormasaurus Raz, who has proclaimed wanting to destroy everything. Seems like a hard sell to sympathize too much.
So the Titan forces did what it took to take those groups out of power. Good for them. Looks like they may not have done it the most “virtuous” way, but a little bit ago my character listened to a talking dagger and helped it help an Old God so I’m not exactly being judgmental here.
All I’m saying is from my perspective, if I’m choosing between the world where the Titans don’t order stuff or the one where they do … do seems a lot better to me.
//
Went through the campaign and walked away thinking the dying primalists said the same things the dying mawsworn said. I’m on the wrong side, the bad guys are really the good guys, and they’ll set me free.
The last one makes me laugh. My character has been free to go murder hobo-ing for the better part of two decades. Maybe they were trying to convince my pet?
It is really way too late to really worry about this. I know it is only more depressing, but any sense of Horde involvement in the plot is long gone already.
I mean, Blizzard has made the characters that define both light and darkness characters be from Alliance Lore. The one who speaks for Azeroth herself is from Alliance. The character they arevgrooming to be the hero of us all, Anduin, is the actual leader of the Alliance.
And even when the Horde has a connection, Blizzard is perfectly willing to ignore it. They took took the conclusion of the legion story arc and decided it had nothing to do with the Horde, a race who is here because they were enslaved by the Legion.
The fact is that Blizzard has had nothing for the Horde other than to be foes for the Alliance and to be ignored the rest of the time.
So another nail won’t close the coffin anymore tightly. You have to either hope that the new team decides that the Horde is relevant to the plot, switch to Alliance, or find another game. (And its not like there aren’t choices.
When you put it like that, it’s clear that the Horde is getting kicked in the teeth from a narrative perspective. It seems clear Blizzard cared little for any Horde characters not named Thrall, Garrosh or Sylvanas (I’d say Vol’jin too, but look how quickly he was sidelined after Mists. And I think much of the spotlight Saurfang and Zekhan got was mainly due to fan demand).
It’s possible that Blizzard is putting so much focus on the Alliance not so much for Alliance favoritism, but to put the Alliance through the ringer (along with Arcane and Light).
Bad for some, good for others doesn’t erase good vs evil. Moral relativism is a part of nihilism. Strip away the prose, rationalizations and sophistry, and you see the core of nihilism, which is “by yourself follow whatever rules you want, whoever carries the biggest stick makes the rules when dealing with others” (human nature is too selfish and drawn to conflict - plus none of us are omniscient, and we can’t make ourselves that - to say that every disagreement between two “ubermensch” will be handled with facts, logic and compassion), especially since the closest thing nihilism has to good vs evil is master morality vs slave morality.
Besides, we see plenty of Proto-dragons who don’t have a problem with a Titan-ordered world. Razageth almost seems like nothing more than a contrarian; the kind of person who’d try to fist fight the sun if they thought it was telling them what to do. Razageth might have a legitimate grievance, but we haven’t seen that yet.
And when two truths are mutually exclusive, either one is right and one is wrong or both are wrong, otherwise you get the nonsensical practice known as doublethink (and the Void’s “Thousand Truths” are doublethink on a cosmic scale).
I don’t know why ppl still argue with thadeus in ANOTHER TITAN MUST BE THE GOOD GUYS related topic cuz one or two are not enough. What will be next? An illidan post perhaps? Surely he would not do it!!
@topic
Every expansion since legion has been about a cosmic force trying to get control of azeroth
We got chaos(legion)
We got void (bfa)
We got death ( shadowlands)
And now we are getting elemental and order ( dragonflight)
All forces want what azeroth has and order will try to continue have hold of it. So the titans been not good guys was something everyone have at least imagined at one point or another since wrath. Nothing new here.
You really think I post about Titans that often? And you seem to be ignoring the pre-Legion expansions, which are more numerous.
Even if I want the Titans themselves to remain the good guys they originally were, I don’t mind them having evil followers or the Titans failing, making mistakes or being tricked (which they have). You can have conflict and struggle without retconning good guys into evil guys (I’m unsure about Odyn, but could take him becoming a villain).
So, I realize not everyone here understands this, but… characters saying something is bad and them actually being bad are two different things in the narrative. Razsageth can both have some sort of secret about the Titans and that secret also be something that was a necessity to keep secret. The Primalists can go on about how we’re being lied to and on the wrong side but be wrong.
She can talk about how she has all sorts of cards up her tiny sleeves as much as she wants, her brain’s still going to short-circuit when someone tells her the planet is a Titan.
Speaking of, the pre-Chronicle, the Titans were already regarded as morally grey, or at the very least with goals that ran counter to mortals. For years the general theory was that they would be the final bosses of WoW, when they returned to Azeroth finally and decided to cleanse the planet and start over. Not due to some overarching war but because that’s just what they did.
I just don’t think we need to worry overmuch about the moral musings of a giant draconic Energizer Bunny, more than likely she’ll tell us things we already know. If anything, the Titans have been shown as a bit too nice and benevolent in their actual appearances, though several thousand years being tortured might have something to do with that. Really cuts down on the ego…
I don’t think the Curse of Flesh was fine w.r.t Algalon, the only one who had the authority to actually use the re-origination device. Algalon mentions that there are systemic corruption throughout Azeroth. In both its life support systems and its defense systems. The Forge of Wills serving as both to a degree. The forge helps nurture Azeroth while also being the primary source for the creation of Titanforged. The only other facility that could do this on a large scale was the Engine of Nalak’sha. Which was repurposed by Lei Shen to build his Mogu army as a way to place Mogu souls into soulless constructs. Thus finding a solution to the ‘curse of flesh’ problem.
“Analysis complete. There is partial corruption in the planet’s life-support systems as well as complete corruption in most of the planet’s defense mechanisms.” - https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Algalon_the_Observer_(tactics)#Quotes
It certainly doesn’t erase good and evil on an local level, however it does erase universal good and universal evil. I insist that nihilisim and moral relativism are two very different things : the former is a stance that argues that we should actively reject morality and truth as the driving forces of our actions, while the latter is just the acknowledgement of a known fact, that is, that your moral values and mine aren’t universally-shared nor objective because morality is culture-dependent. Knowing and accepting this doesn’t change anything to the fact that I’m super convinced, dedicated and devoted to my values, and that I’m willing to live according to them. Good vs evil still shapes my thinking. Moral relativism doesn’t eradicate meaning… the idea that meaning cannot exist outside of the “one single truth” frame is very weird to me.
So, as you probably guessed, I disagree with this, and if I had to pick sides the Thousand Truths trope just sounds more reasonable to me — the major difference being that in the case of the Old Gods this is associated with lies and mental manipulation aimed at making someone act the way they want. Because the Old Gods themselves have an agenda of their own… in other words, a truth of their own.
Moral relativism is rejection of objective morality, which means if it was correct that nothing could truly be called good or evil, and all people’s views are equally valid despite ones being mutually exclusive.
If moral relativism were correct, here’s a few examples of it in action;
There’d be no reason to oppose father-daughter incest because, by that “logic”, practicing it would be as valid as preventing it.
It’d be equally valid to support the Titans, the Old Gods, the Naaru or the Jailer regardless of any of their actions (with moral relativism even re-origination, Void mutation, forced Lightforging or Domination magic would be equally as justified and valid as healing or resurrection).
It would mean my position is as equally true and valid as yours, so there’d be no reason for either of us to question or challenge each other.
Do you see one of the problems with moral relativism now?
And given we were talking about morality, what you said about the idea of whether or not meaning can exist outside a single truth sounds like a detour at best to me, so why bring it up?
How does the widescale doublethink and mental gymnastics that is the Void’s “Thousand Truths” sound more reasonable to you?
