You should try to keep them capped so they have a bigger buffer between them and death.
As a paladin blessing of light+rank 1 flash of light spam is enough.
You’re scaring the crap out of the tank with your slingshot healing. It’s better, more mana effecient, and safer to just spam r1 flash and then use max rank flash and holy light (and shock if you have it) as needed to keep up with additional healing demand. R1 costs next to nothing and is hyper efficient.
Letting the tank dip to 40% so you can Holy Light without overhealing is absolutely terrible play and will get punished VERY hard in harder dungeons and in raids.
Doing that will make the run significantly slower / some fights will be a lot harder as you will run out of mana fast.
Classic healing is ALL ABOUT not spamming everyone to 100%, by maximising the 5 second rule, prioritising targets, drinking at the initial stages of a pull, etc
OP is a paladin. We don’t give a damn about the 5s rule, we just downrank and spam r1. We get mana refunded on crits, and r1 flash is the single most mana efficient heal in the game. It’s fully optimal to spam r1 to keep everyone topped. If a paladin needs to use one of their big heals, they have either messed up, or the group is taking SERIOUS damage.
Everyone is offering imput based on their own class, but every healer has very different spells and rotations, and what’s relevant to one isn’t relevant to the others. Paladin does not have the same healing style as druid, priest, or shaman, and none of them play like paladin either. Every class plays differently.
Bristlebane represent! Even if we were technically behind the other servers we did some great things.
Like the pre mod-rod nerf 40ish person Aten Ha Ra. That was a damn grind, 4am when we finally downed her, with a good number of us fighting off sleep. Pretty sure some of us were asleep.
We were also the only server with two real endgame guilds, it was a fight between us and AO. RoV was almost there, they got hosed hard by Acrylia caverns.
Ok, well the OP is saying that what you are saying is BS.
Seriouslt - rank ONE Flash of light?
No, I don’t buy that for a second nor have I frankly seen anyone else say that.
That you should spam, yes, that you use downrank spells, yes.
bur rank ONE flash of light, after Level 50, in Dire Maul Mauridan, just spam rank ONE flash of light over and over, which gives less than 75 HP when people.
No, don’t exagerate - you are taking it too far.
Are you seriously arguing that any Flash of Light above rank ONE is a waste of gold?
I totally agree, the only time I have critiqued healers is to let them know they don’t have to keep me 100% and to let them know that yes I know they are drinking, but I’m just gona grab that pack LoS it over here and they can keep drinking. I had to explain the 5 second rule to a few of em. If a healer is having trouble healing I just slow down or start marking CC, DPS can wait since i really don’t like running back to dungeons and paying repair bills.
A lot of healers don’t know that they can sit back and regen mana and wait until the tank actually needs a heal. I don’t recommend playing the “how low can we keep the tank” game but as a warrior tank if I am at 50% and there aren’t any relevant mechanics around I am not even thinking about my cooldowns.
Then again after runs I often get the “Wow I’ve never had a tank who needed so little healing” and “best tank I’ve ever had” from my healers I think that and a lot of them thinking spam heals are necessary is a result of bad two hand non druid tanks wearing leather.
Spells level 20 and higher have the same coefficients as level 60 spells
Coefficients drop prior to level 20, in addition many heals have faster cast time at lower levels.
Holy Light Rank 4 is level 22…but in addition the numbers work in terms of mana efficiency and output, whether your raiding or grouping.
For healers without illumination I agree.
For Paladins 1% crit = 1% efficiency and .5% increased healing.
Moreover with the addition of DM itemization you don’t have to make sacrifices. Just look at an Insightful Hood as an example.
Actually its a little more complicated than that.
Paladins at 60 seem to start with +3.037% with base stats.
However none of that diminishes the value of +crit for a Paladin in terms of efficiency and throughput.
This isn’t how math works.
Efficiency is Healing per mana.
Throughput is Healing per second.
While cast time obviously affects the coefficient, your double dipping.
HL, at 500 +Healing starts slightly lower in HP/sec than FoL…and by the end of MC should match it. After that HL offers more efficiency and more HP/sec.
Additionaly you can uprank HL to rank 5 if you need. Upranking max rank FoL isn’t possible.
Doesn’t matter
The HP/sec are similar. If you need more in the current shorter MC fights then use Rank 5.
Spells level 20 and higher have the same coefficients as level 60 spells
Which is what I was talking about. You were claiming that Blessing of Light provided the same benefit at all levels, unlike spellpower. I was pointing out that it functioned exactly like spellpower did.
For healers without illumination I agree.
Even with Illumination, it’s not a particularly good stat. It’s certainly better for Paladins than, say, Druids. But it’s not normally something you’d purposefully gear for - about the only time you’d take a critical piece is if critical just happened to be on an otherwise solid piece that was a higher iLvl than the alternative.
However none of that diminishes the value of +crit for a Paladin in terms of efficiency and throughput.
Paladins receive no special benefit in terms of throughput with regard to +crit. From the standpoint of effective throughput, critical is arguably worse for Paladins than Shaman/Priests due to the armor buff (which can be hand-waved as requiring 5% less healing of melee damage on the target for 15 sec). It’s certainly worse than it would be for Nature’s Grace Druid in terms of throughput.
This isn’t how math works.
The coefficient of a direct heal is (casting time) / 3.5.
If you add X in +healing, this would add X * (casting time) / 3.5 to the heal. If you then wanted to know how much hps it added, you divide by the casting time - which cancels out the casting time in the numerator.
Another way to look at this is that +healing adds its value, divided by 3.5, in hps to a heal without casting time modifiers.
If you’re comparing top ranked Holy Light and Flash of Light, Holy Light is ~426 greater hps. It will remain ~426 greater hps no matter how much +healing you equip.
In terms of hpm, it depends on the relative mana costs. Holy Light will gain 66% more benefit per heal from +healing. If the Holy Light rank you’re casting is greater than 66% more mana than the Flash of Light you’d be casting, it will grow less efficient with more +healing. If it’s less, it will grow more efficient.
Doesn’t matter
It actually matters a great deal. As a general rule, if two heals generate similar hps/hpm, then the one with a shorter casting time is better.
When raid healing, this is especially true because you want to cover a large number of targets with small heals - not individual targets with large ones. Larger heals tend to end up stomping all over one another since non-tanks don’t have enough hit points to absorb casts from multiple healers.
Well I just wanted to say that as someone leveling a Holy Pally alt (and who just has a general interest in healer theorycrafting), this has been a great read. Very interesting so thanks guys.
I heal dungeons and I make sure my tank is topped off at all times without overhealing of course because that is a wasted heal otherwise. I see no issue with keeping the tank topped. I personally want the tank to be topped off because I want to be able to take my attention off the tank if I have to for someone else. This style has worked great for me.
Ive defintely learned to appreciate the spam to avoid upcoming damage, as well as the fact theres no aoe heal. Ive come to realize it’s needed to overcome those deficiencies.
Spent the last two days healing Maradaun, and it served me quite well.
However, im totally dropping holy shocl for BoS. I kinda hate holy shock as a healing spell. Its so weak, that the only redeeming quality is being able to use it on the move. BUT you barely ever move in pve cause most mobs and bosses are tank and spank. I want my BoS back.
Well that and it’s great burst if your tank or someone else it taking a ton of damage and you’re FoL spamming to get them back up, it will heal a similar amount to FoL except instant, so FoL followed by HS is nice burst on a target.
That being said, it’s great as a dps tool as well (many would argue this is it’s best quality) which is something HPals otherwise lack, so it’s value is in it’s variety of useful scenarios. For a Pally that does PvP, PvE, and some soloing, it’s going to be great. If all you do is spam dungeons, you might not reach its full value.
Let me first say I do enjoy our discussion, even though I’m going to disagree on some points here. Helps me think about certain things, dispute ideas, and hopefully end up stronger in the end. I’m open to being wrong.
I’m going to disagree with you on two points here.
First, you said that Holy Shock will heal a similar amount as holy shock, except it’s instant, and that is FALSE.
You have to also consider the talent points in Healing light that increase the amount healed by FoL and Holy Light, but has no impact on Holy Shock. Then, you also have blessing of light, which further increases the strength of FoL and Holy light, but does nothing to help holy shock.
So, it’s not holy shock vs. FoL;
it’s holy shock vs. FoL + Healing light + Blessing of light
Second, you argued it could work good as an emergency heal if you are using FoL spamming to get them back up.
However, although I admit I am playing Paladin for the first time (level 53), I don’t get the impression that FoL spamming is used to keep people back up. It’s certainly now how I use it.
FoL spamming is preventetive - done to keep their health high, so if something unexpected happens, one strong heal spell will be enough. When I FoL spam to get them back up, the tank is around 50% and I’m basically fishing for a crit to bring them back up to avoid using a stronger heal. Usually 4-5 is enough.
So the spamming happens before an emergency happens, and basically, to help ensure you don’t find yourself in an emergency situation. It’s a lot like placing a shield a la disc priest or a regen like a druid on someone, but palladins don’t have sheilds and regens, so little heals are spammed instead.
So, when a true emergency does happen, it doesn’t really make sense to still be spamming FoL. This is when Holy Light gets pulled out if a stronger heal is needed.
If it’s a real emergency situation, the protocol I follow, and I believe most holy palladins follow, is to first bubble the person, to prevent further damage, followed by a strong heal with a longer cast time. The BoP basically give you the time to do the huge heal that is needed, completing removing the need to FoL spam in an emergency. If I’m the one taking damage, divine shield + large heal. If it’s an absolutely worst emergency possible, lay of hands.
So, because the amount of movement in dungeons and raids is small, and it doesn’t really work as an emegency heal, especially considering the superior options, it’s better to take BoS if you don’t care about the damage component.
I absolutely agree the damage component is it’s best quality, also remember that when it was originally released, it only did damage! The healing part was added later, and it kinda shows. I also agree it’s probably great in PvP, but less certain how much it helps compared to the AOE farming and survivability that BoS gives.
I personally don’t plan to PvP, so that right there really diminishes my desire for holy shock. It is nice to have a ranged attack, but I’m hoping eng bombs can help me with that. More generally, I like being able to aoe farm with BoS, while Holy shock is single target - which is why I think it can be strong in PvP.
In short, because I plan to only do instances, aoe farm, and solo content, I’m preferring BoS to holy shock, but could change if I start to do PvP.
If they’re taking heavy damage and/or are low, FoL is going to be the life saver. Holy Light, while it will heal them for a huge chunk, is not always possible to use in those moments. You pull that out when damage has stabilized a bit and/or their health is higher that they’re out of the danger zone and you can afford a 2.5s cast time. And if on the tank, BoL makes a downranked HL more efficient as your “health maintenance” spammer than FoL anyway as Valarkin explained in numerous posts.
On a dps yea BoP is great but I’d be careful about putting it on a tank. Aside from making the tank unable to attack, it also reduces threat (not sure if in Classic it removes all threat although I know in later expacs it did). Definitely a last minute maneuver.
I wish I was tanking for you. This is just toxic whining nonsense. No your not expected to keep a tank at 100% If no one is wiping they shouldnt be complaining about anything. Also, the reality is, in classic especially; wipes do happen. If they rage quit right after they shouldnt be tanking, and shouldnt be playing classic. Good luck with your healing and thank you for contributing to the community.
Don’t BoP a tank. A BoP’ed player is removed from the threat table. When the BoP wears off, they go back on the threat table where they were previously. The relative position of where they come back on the threat table depends on what everyone else did (or didn’t) do while they were BoP’ed.
That means if you bubble a DPS someone else has to do something to change the bubbled player’s threat position–the bubble won’t resolve the issue itself. If you bubble a tank the threat table will erupt into chaos.
As you’ve found, holy shock isn’t particularly useful at your current gear level or for healing, in general. It has more utility and impact as a damage spell. In my memory, it was regarded as a pvp talent and I don’t remember raiders using it or recommending it in their builds.
Just remember that when it comes to deciding between BoS and BoL, that’s going to depend on the type of tank and incoming damage rather than a general rule that you should adhere to.
Your not factoring the static value of BoL on heals post level 20.
Spellpower has a static value on heals post-level 20 as well.
Nor the fact the BoL can also crit in value.
As can spellpower.
HL is simply the most efficient Holy Paladin spell from Rank 4 and up.
As I demonstrated above, this is incorrect. Downranked Flash of Light out-performs it dramatically in terms of hpm.
HL also has comparable, and even greater HP/sec than FoL, depending on Rank.
Holy Light is the high hps heal while Flash of Light is the high hpm heal for Paladins. It’s certainly possible to pick a rank of Holy Light and a rank of Flash of Light where this relationship is reversed, but if you’re picking comparable ranks the rule will hold.
Paladins are the most efficient single target healer in game bar none.
No one is arguing that they aren’t. I pointed out that Paladins are the worst single target healers in terms of throughput - and they have no multi-target options.
It’s also worth mentioning that cross-healer comparisons are significantly complicated by the fact that different healers have different levels of gearing. When we talk about ‘equivalent levels of gear’, we have to recognize that those ‘equivalent levels of gear’ will probably put a Priest +100 healing, and +3000 to +4000 mana (over the course of a fight) above a Paladin.
So when you compare Priest and Paladin efficiency, you can’t just look at the basic heals without viewing the base they’re casting from. In the cast of single target healing efficiency, the basic spell structure for Paladins is sufficiently superior to Greater Heal that we can handwave away these differences. But in terms of hps, it tends to mean that Priests have a far larger lead over Paladins than you’d expect just from looking at spells/talents.
Blessing of Light was eliminated with TBC for a reason…it was overpowered.
Illumination was nerfed to 70% with TBC for a reason…it was completely overpowered.
These were removed for two reasons:
The removal of the hybrid tax. This necessitated re-balancing Paladin effects around stronger baseline heals.
The clunkiness of Blessing of Light in 5-man content. In a raid, you can blanket the entire raid with Blessing of Light. In 5-man content, it’s a massive nerf on Paladin healing on anyone but the tank.
Well, honestly, it’s a lot more dynamic than that.
Like, healing is planning, thinking, watching, and reacting - isn’t it?
Well, sure, but you also try to anticipate those moments. You begin pre-casting when you know it’s incoming, and follow up with FoL or HL spam to bring them up. Like, if you are gonna use FoL or HL will depend on the situation, but it still doesn’t make holy shock worth it for those situations.
Regarding what you said about HL:
The irony is that healing like this is what drove me to create this thread.
HL + BoL, at my level, in these easy instances, is so strong, even downranked, that I seriously need them to go to like 70 or even 50% to ensure it doesn’t overheal. It works just fine, frankly, but that yo-yo nature is exactly what this tank (and some others) complain about. They would much rather I be OCD and use a downranked FoL to heal every little boo boo even though yes, HL now and then works fine.
I forgot to add that I don’t do that technique for the tank, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I did do it previously, and was scolded, but forgot to mention that I do BoP for the DPS. Tank, more about avoiding that situation in the first place, and yeah, I can see how holy shock would help here, but it’s just too weak for my level and gear. Instead, I will usually try to anticipate damage and begin pre-casting a large heal, followed by another large heal, which usually works.
I actually did find myself in a situation like this last night, and remembering this thread, I decided to cast holy shock to see the effect. Let’s just say it didn’t save the day whereas spamming the other heals did, and I have a hard time believing that first cast of holy shock really helped me. I mean, it still triggers a CD and heals less than my FoL would have.
Yes, I was aware, I just didn’t note it in my post.
Aren’t my posts long enough as they are?
Yes, 100% agreement. I feel healing involves assessing a situation and reacting accordingly rather than following robotic rules no matter the context. Need to process various components while making decisions on what to press.