Discussion: Draenei and the Horde

Wyrmrest Accord
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Just a discussion topic that I feel could be interesting. I approach this with the angle that I am a fan of both draenei and the orcs and have always found their relationship very interesting. It’s why I just can’t get into AU orcs because while Draenor provided a good scope of “What Ifs” and a look into how it was for a short while…it isn’t our orcs or our draenei.

The draenei and the orc have had a strange relationship since the beginning. In lore , they were never enemies to begin with. They were befriended early on, kept to themselves and had minimal contact with only really crossing paths for trade and then just kept a respectful distance for the rest of the time.

With the tragedies there is no good and bad except for the actually entity responsible for it all. Velen has only good things to say about the orc, but is still pained by the past. The orcs massacred a population of people, but their religion and culture were manipualted to make them do so.

Then the draenei themselves had an impact on Draenor itself, by even changing it’s ecosystem with animals from Argus , The Genedar and them being there is what brought the Legion there in the first place.

Yet this is no reason to blame either of them. I don’t blame the draenei solely for everything, and neither do I blame the orcs. Two people who were originally fine co-existing forced into being enemies and now have not truly recovered on either end…each with a false idea of the other side. (The draenei have more of a reason to distrust orcs, but I can’t seem to really see any reason for orcs to hate draenei other than just the trauma of what happened to their world and their place in the events, Saurfang’s response is far more realistic to not wanting to think about draenei.)

So I bring a question here , something that has been a part of Gotosh’s research in his people’s history and the draenei involvement and something he has on several occasions , asked to different draenei to know what they felt (the answers have surprised him).

The question is: If the Draenei crashed in a location closer to Durotar, rather than Teldrassil, what do you think would change?

For context, Thrall was Warchief and was genuinely distressed at the arrival of the draenei, especially crashing so close to Alliance. Velen, however, has a lot of respect and love Durotan and still speaks highly of him.

Would they have been able to create a better agreement for their future? Would the draenei be welcomed into the Horde?

Or would Thrall have considered offering, but instead, lead Velen and the Draenei to the Alliance himself, thus creating a much different relationship in the peaceful escorting to a place better suited for them.

These are all actual things Gotosh considers in his research and his work on creating better relations among his people and the draenei and the future of approaching peace and diplomatic ventures…so what do you think?

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Red Draenei for the Horde!

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The Man’ari Eredar have no place among any faction I feel, especially the Horde. I think that would actually create even more problems, since that is an even closer connection to the fall of orcish culture. It also makes the Horde look more like the evil faction, and would further create a rift between orc and draenei.

I see people wanting Man’ari for the Horde often, and for me it’s less about aesthetics and more about what that would mean for the whole Horde, it’s society and culture. However I always think of ways to incorperate people getting what they want, and I feel the only way we would get Man’ari Eredar is if they were a new option for the Illidari, and that would make them Alliance.

Interesting concept, but it would just further ruin orc and draenei relations. I cannot see this happening if the Draenei crashed near Durotar.

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Again I say the faction conflict would have realistically ended ages ago, especially after things like the Legion invading (again) and everyone basically teaming up and fighting Sarge.

I think if the orcs and draenei had been real people they might have resolved their differences by now. The whole horde vs alliance is a contrivance so that pvp can exist, after these world-shattering events, the wars would have stopped, or at the very least been put on hold. We see it in our world, like in WW2, The world was against Stalin and the Soviets, but then put that aside to kick Hitler’s behind up and down the street.

But to answer your question, if the Draenei had crashed nearer to the Horde, I think it would have been an interesting storyline. Much better than the one we got. It could have been a whole recconciliation with the Velen and his people needing help, but then seeing the orcs and like, we shouldn’t trust them because of Draenor, but our people are sick and dying. Maybe if we help them out with these invading monkeys, and these serpent people, or the centaurs or whatever is the most dire, they might help us in return.

Orcs are honourable as a culture, kinda Klingonish, I doubt they would wade in and start killing helpless Draenei just because they are weakened.

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With how Blizzard changed Draenei lore going into Burning Crusade, I don’t see there being any way the Draenei would have been anything BUT Alliance.

When a highway has been made out of the bones of a people, I think we’re long past the point any meaningful reconciliation can be had. Especially not when one side are literal immortals.

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True, but weren’t these different orcs from the horde? That always seemed very unorc-like to me, considering they are supposed to be all about honour and such.

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I am in favor of all this.

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I always felt the animosities between orcs and draenei was poorly hamfisted for the sake of faction divide video game mechanics.

The Orcs and Draenei imo share a common bond having both suffered horrible tragedies caused by the Legion.

I imagine that the Draenei would be more sympathetic to the orcas and are careful not to paint them all as the same corrupted Fel Horde that attacked them on Draenor. Especially when you consider the Draenei and their Man’ari counterparts are the same people. I’m sure they would not want to be associated and even considered guilty for the horrors the Man’ari have committed.

They both live in glass houses.

That said, people aren’t a monolith either, there can definitely be individuals amongst the orcs and draenei that despise each other. Again they had individuals that willing drank demon blood or served sargeras.

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Yeah , I couldn’t realistically see them being on the Horde aside from the hypothetical of Thrall maybe at least considering it, but ultimately thinking against it since the wounds of what happened only recently re-sealed. It might of worked, but too soon to put on the Draenei. It would of have been a chance, though , to provide a moment to teach history. Even though the draenei have no reason to exactly trust the orcs, if they were able to hear what the orcs went through and had Thrall meet Velen BEFORE being brought over to the Alliance, that could of created a very compelling angle for the draenei.

Still suspicious and healing from their escape, the interaction could of eliminated the festering of ideas and instead got them out there for the Draenei and the Orc to discuss what happened. Discussing all that happened right away I think would have helped some things, not all…but at different perspective as the join the Alliance.

What happened on Draenor is awful, and realistically, the orcs recognize this. From a player perspective, thinking that the orcs are all proud and happy about what happened completely ignores how it effected them later on. From a character perspective, a singular orc might think it’s an achievement if they are young and have no scope of how bad it really was. From a historical perspective, yeah the draenei have a right to be nervous. But seeing as a lot of the orcs also went through their own tradegies and realized what happened when it was too late and with Thrall doing all he can to restore it, I think even if they’re not skipping together hand in hand the interactions early on would have been way different.

Not joining the Horde no, but its an interesting idea if something occured were that could have been an option like crashing closer to Durotar and seeing Thrall first and not the Night Elves who only know the war side as well.

I don’t like when people think the Horde is evil. I’d rather not the faction that has all the majority of the animistic cultures largely based on real ones or inspired by real ones and that being seen as ‘evil’. The Horde is about survival and supporting those who have been othered while rising up to be stronger in a community. Nothing about that is evil. Even the Forsaken being on the Horde is about them being shunned and never given a chance. Horde is the faction of hope, I’d say.

Completely agree, and that’s where I think it would have created a much different mindset if they met first.

I actually think the orc and draenei conflict makes sense, I just think more story needs to be out toward it. For me they are the two races that could actually bridge a connection. While the faction mechanics is def a fair point…knowing how people work, the first to get to someone and relate only in a negative experience I think creates a bond where it will be hard to detach from for a long time. Of all conflicts , the orc and the draenei I think is the most interesting and the most tragic that I have a hard time seeing it as poorly hamfisted.

It could be partly to do with when I first started getting into the lore, I wasn’t exposing myself at all to twitter or fandom or forum and I only saw the universe and the books and it made it all so amazing for me. I just wish during Legion…we were given more orc and draenei relations and better homage to Broxigar than boots :pensive:

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I just had a coworker ask me yesterday what the name of the badguy faction was in WoW. “You know, the one with the orcs?”

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Horde have been the evil faction since Mists of Pandaria, unfortunately.

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It’s okay. I like being the badguy.

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I’m mostly referring to stuff like the bone road and the gratuitous amounts of violence written to justify video game mechanics.

I’m not saying they should be bffs but it could have simply been: Draenei crash next to Night Elves and Night Elves are like, hey check out this cool club I’m in and it would have worked out totally fine. Without having to add, also here’s all this excessive voyeuristic violence to justify video game pvp mechanics.

I think this is in part due to the Draenei being the first big retcon and was a somewhat controversial addition to the game (at the time).

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One interesting thing that happens in Azuremyst is that the first Night Elf you encounter identifies you as an Eredar, and she’s afraid of you.

Nothing really comes of it–the Draenei get a chance to explain themselves, and moreover, Azuremyst was apparently inhabited just by Furbolgs and a small number of Elf families, so we really don’t interact with Night Elves that much until we get off the isles.

But it is easy to imagine a different scenario where the Exodar crashes into a more important Night Elf territory–say, Ashenvale!–and the Night Elves reasonably react to this magical destructive thing full of “demons” by attacking. The only nearby force to lend aid is not Furbolgs this time, but Orcs! Orcs know Draenei are not Eredar, and with Thrall as warchief at the time, they would probably want to make amends.

The relationship would obviously be under massive strain given their history, but Thrall was a pretty good diplomat. And in hindsight it is probably for the best that this wasn’t what the Draenei did, because everyone who wasn’t an bloodthirsty Orc or amoral Zombie within the Horde got their identity put to a major test after the Garrosh and Sylvanas years. Playing as a Horde Draenei under Garrosh would have been absolutely bizarre.

Personally, I think Draenei probably fit in with the Alliance more, but I do find this sort of scenario sort of appealing–one thing we lose by being part of the Alliance is our “Outlander” heritage. We’re not the pure Paladins of the Army of the Light, we are an outcast people from a broken planet, many of whom have formed more Horde-like traditions of honoring the elements rather than the Light exclusively. But since we’re Alliance and spend more time rubbing shoulders with Humans rather than Tauren and Orcs, the Shamanistic/Broken/Nomadic aspect of Draenei culture gets kinda put to the side in favor of a being Holy Space Marines. (not to say I hate being a spaceship-faring paladin, but the shamanistic side of draenei is cool, and arguably was our defining characteristic in BC as the only Alliance shaman race)

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Wow I had completely forgotten that detail!! I’ve been wanting to make another draenei just to fully absorb the starting zone again and this really puts this concept into perspective! Especially if Drek’thar was there when he was actually around during an age where draenei were just another neighbor, it really makes me wonder what would have happened. Because you are correct, with the Legion having been something against the kaldorei as well they would likely would have had ONLY a negative experience with “eredar”.

But they were able to have a conversation, connect and realize the histories are all twisted and unfortunately share a…dislike by what they orcs have done with two different reasons. This actually does make me think that the relationship with the orc and draenei would have been way better from the start had Thrall and Velen been able to sit down, talk history and for him to actually hear early on about his father during a time when he was still a young leader. That may have even given him a boost in confidence … Man, what an amazing angle this could have been.

While I still think the draenei probably would end up on Alliance, just out of Thrall realizing that the draenei need to be among a group of people who can at least give them structure and share in their connection to the Light, I think the way they revere the Light can co-exist a little better with the orcs.The draenei as well would have learned to live more harmoniously with the concept of shamanism and gain more appreciation for working with the elements. Perhaps even learning to be at peace with many concepts the Horde can provide while accepting them as another race and culture who have been othered and beaten down.

Even thinking about it, the draenei could have shared with them their good encounters of shadowmoon clan and shadowmoon valley, and with their crystal tech some a conversation could be had between old and new generation of Shadowmoon orc about how often crystals and glowing items of moonlight were used and re-ignite an interest in scraping up old Shadowmoon Traditions…

Oh woe…what a story I’m going off about. This just reminds me of a public event I’ve had to keep putting off due to just apprehension on how and when to do it.

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I think there was more time passed between the orcs leaving Draenor for Azeroth and then the Draenei crashing into Nelf territory. At least a few generations. And we’re also forgetting that Thrall was the leader of the Horde when they crashing. It would have been a totally different thought if Garrosh or Sylvannas had been warchief at the time. I could even see the Tauren and Troll warchiefs being at least open to the idea of the Draenei being included. They have more incommon with the Horde than the Alliance.

  • Shamanistic
  • A “monster” race
  • Honourable
  • At least partially nomadic
  • Against fel magics - warlocks are treated like witchdoctors from what I’ve seen, all the other stuff if game mechanics.

All the other stuff that Draenei are is by association with the Alliance.

This. I hate this. We’ve had too many centuries of indigenous folks being treated and hated for being “godless savages” for me to think it’s anything but a veiled reference to that.

And all of this.

If warcraft had had better writters that weren’t obsessed with pvp and Sylvannas, I think we could have had some exceptionally good stories about patching up old wounds and forgiveness and coming together and fighting something worse. More hopepunk and less hamfisted-grimdark.

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I hate this is even a thing.

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Of course you do. :stuck_out_tongue:

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It makes my cold dead heart… well “feel” isn’t the right word. React? Maybe?

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I think the road of Bones thing kind of sealed the deal on that.
Then again who knows, you could have a group of Orcs helping them as they land and apologize for what happened.

I really do hope they further expand upon this armistice with the time skip in helping men relations between the factions.
Im kinda tired of the red vs blue narrative so it’s really hard for me to speak on this.

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