I’m sure there are a variety of reasons, but most likely it’s just health to dps scaling ratio. That’s a pretty simple one to realize.
Also arguing with Peep is a waste of time. They took a massively long post with a lot of valid arguments and focused on two out of context statements to drag this thread down because they are literally just a troll and are only here to ruin the thread and insult people they disagree with.
arguing with literal numbers is a pretty big waste of time i agree, you can’t win
2+2 will never equal 7
remember the “fights are only 10-20 seconds on average”?
the average is 52 seconds, there are only 2/13 between 10-20 seconds,
i guess this is out of context somehow, or trolling, or a violation of the code of conduct
and it’s easy enough that even they can do it.
1.1k views and 3 likes on the OP.
lol
The issue with 10m isn’t that the content is harder, it’s fights like nef where there are 3 things to tank in P1, 3 platforms to heal in P2. So your raid comp can get punished real quick compared to 25m where it’s not an issue to have a 3rd tank and extra heals.
the 3 heals part is very true, we often go to 6 healers in 25 man for this reason (2 per platform obv), the tank part, the 10 player guilds in cata classic already found a way to 2 tank the boss, they just kill ony immediately and she dies right as nef lands
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1023#metric=progress&partition=1&size=10&boss=1026 you can see they all know about it
meanwhile Al’akir and limited spreadout space is the exact opposite. the 25man platform is not 2.5 times bigger.
such is the way.
Tbf, its classic, its all pretty easy, doubt many are playing classic for difficulty
I love when people who dont do the raids talk about how its easy but dont realize the clear rates percentage for heroic is like 5%.
5%, on week 3
Its comparatively easy to what it was and to retail
Cata released dec 7, 2010 initially, sinestra didn’t die until jan 20, 2011
I guess, i think those numbers would be a lot lower if people didnt get their 200 wipes on PTR tho.
10m has quite a few things that make it overall harder at all levels EXCEPT explicitly the top level. If you are someone that clears content without progression, aka you’re not making mistakes or learning fights, then difficulty is irrelevant and the only value to concern yourself with is time.
10m has a tighten requirement for group comps. In 25m you’re not going to have an issue with missing a specific buff or a class, but in 10m you often have to choose between a ranged heavy comp or a melee one, and it’s more restrictive on balancing your raid.
10m has one battle rez so you get a single mistake that can be corrected but in 25m you can have three, so if a key person for a fight goes down for a mechanic in 10m you get that fixed a single time, but in 25m you can do that three times. This significantly adds to the margin of error especially alongside the fact that each individual player is a larger impact on the group as a whole. There are certainly some fights where losing roles can be a critical impact, but in 10m there are more fights where losing a healer is essentially a wipe while losing one in 25m would not be an immediate loss.
Finally there is the gearing issue. 25m raids gear faster than 10m raids. Less gear is likely to go to waste because of a missing class, and you have a wider spread of gear overall.
That’s the issue with the “Top guild” players in here derailing this thread. They aren’t doing progression on these fights. They literally by definition cannot do both 10m and 25m on the same characters because the lockouts are shared. And most of them aren’t doing 10m. They are doing exclusively 25m. So when they compare these fights they are only concerned with the metrics that affect them and ignore the ones that affect progression raids.
Such as the number of wipes and the overall number of players as well as the average ilvl.
You’re also comparing known fight mechanics, a later patched version of the game, and lots of prep time for PTR to fresh and new content that was never seen. It’s not as hard as it was, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to perform. This is definitely content where there are difficult to execute mechanics relative to previous versions of the game.
Interesting bit of data that hasn’t been posted here yet, kill percentages across the board except Heroic Cho’Gall are lower in 10m than 25.
25m / 10m
Atramedes - 26.2% / 17.1%
Maloriak - 23.8% / 14.3%
Halfus - 21.4% / 14.2%
Chimaeron - 19.6% / 11.7%
Omnitron - 14.8% / 9.5%
Magmaw - 11.9% / 9.7%
Twin Dragons - 11.8% / 7.3%
Cho’Gall - 9.6% / 11.3%
Conclave of Wind - 8.9% / 6.3%
Sinestra - 8.7% / 4.3%
Nef - 7.8% / 4.5%
Al’Akir - 7.1% / 5.6%
Ascendant Council - 6.0% / 5.0%
For all the talk of faster speed clears, number of 13/13H guilds between the two, etc, these numbers are the most meaningful and most important for determining the difficulty of the fights overall.
They clearly show the aggregate percentages across the full population of people clearing the content, and the success rate of clears for each of the bosses. This is what matters when you talk about difficulty. How likely is the average player to clear a piece of content across the tiers of content between each difficulty. And overall there are WAY more attempts and failures across 10m than 25m.
Crazy my raid just beat heroic Council this week and it’s only a 6% clear rate, sheesh.
I was also replying to the clear rates and my opinion is the clear rates would be a lot smaller if there was no PTR, lots of guilds did their prog on the PTR but maybe I’m wrong.
10m is for alt raiding for many players. Players are not as good at their alts. My alt does 10 and my main does 25. Shockingly, my 10m progression is not as good. It’s not because it’s harder.
1 BR every 2 minutes or something like that. Dying early is still punishing in 25.
Another reason why most better groups are doing 25.
Pretty sure they had progression, it just happened before the raid came out.
They’re not, lol. You are doing exclusively 10m though. I’m sure it feels very hard for you.
All you have is the clear rates and you ignore any and all confounding factors because they contradict the narrative you’re spinning here.
And that’s fine for an alt run, that’s actually exactly what you’d expect on off nights when people aren’t as serious with likely less than optimal raid comp gear etc… That doesn’t explain the difference when the mains are in the 10 man.
Where is the main-only data?
Where is the data that alt groups were skewing the 10 man numbers?
It’s anecdotal. And also logical to draw the conclusion that most players would form 10mans for alt raids because they’re so much easier to form than 25.
Calling 10m harder when some randos cleared it faster than Progress cleared 25 is just hilarious to me.
And a logical conclusion is also that week one of raiding there were not swarms of alts runs doing heroic end boss progression.
You could certainly make the statement that now a few weeks into it there’s a lot more alts doing heroic progression of some kind and that might be skewing earlier boss numbers.
A completely unsubstantiated claim that I am not going to spend days debunking because it was made without evidence and can be dismissed without such. If you look at the top guilds for 25m, their 10m clears have the some of the same names as their 25m clears. Also if your goal is to gear and you can already field a 10m group, you’d just put yourself in a 25m group.
Which isn’t really progression then is it?
Well first, the lockouts are shared. And apparently alt runs don’t count or some other such random claim you’re going to make to handwave away data. Just looking at the information the one person you pointed to as a “top raider” in this thread doesn’t have 10m clears in their guild logs last I checked. And looking at the logs only 7 of the top 20 progression guilds for 25 that I checked have 10m progress, and of those 7 only 4 have 13/13.
Who said I do exclusively 10m? I can’t have alts too? How do you think I came to this conclusion of ease? Do you not think I also have a viewpoint of comparison to make, and that other raiders in my group do too? No of course not, because you think less of me and don’t care to consider my arguments.
But you also have alts and GDKP runs doing 25m as well. Why would it be skewed for alts in one type of content and not the other? And where are we even getting the idea it’s exclusively alts padding these numbers?