That entirely possible. I did the beginning cata quests and stopped hard once I began my worgen and saw Gilneas.
It may also be that the skulduggery became front and center rather than just a few instances. A few kidnappings and tortures are expected. When its seen as the normal day for a forsaken it paints a different picture, such as when said torturers are disposed of then brought back like stillwater.
You remember that we killed Stillwater, right?
The Forsaken were always pretty bad in that regard, but because their cruelty seemed more hidden it was easier to have plausible deniability. Easier to envision your character as someone who didn’t participate in, or approve of, such things.
As of Cata, that became much more difficult. Now with Sylvanas as warchief, there’s really no way for character to divest themselves from her regime.
And that’s the root of my problem with the Forsaken (and indeed, most of the races as of BfA): they just end up feeling like extensions of their faction leaders.
But… my character did participate in it. Just looking at pre-cataclysm examples that are presented to the Horde player base at large. I’ve been helping this charming group of blokes called The Defilers ravage the former Alliance lands in Arathi for resources. Forsaken delight in torture and cruelty is how my Horde engineer learned how to make a gnomish flying machine. It’s how we overcame the Vyrkul in Howling Fjord. It’s also a good fifth of the Horde questing in Dragonblight against the Scarlet Onslaught.
The Horde playerbase, at large, has been exposed to and encouraged to participate in Forsaken themed questing since Vanilla.
The backlash didn’t come until Alliance players were put on the other side of Forsaken questing in Cataclysm. It’s then that these weird complaints arose that are pretty much universal to the game, but somehow only a problem for the Forsaken. Like how the Forsaken “feel like an extension of their leader.” As if that’s not true for literally every race in the game.
Well the Defilers were optional. And as for the Vrykul, I don’t think most people minded because the Vrykul were presented as being almost unanimously hostile until Legion.
But if you didn’t like the way the Forsaken experimented on humans, dwarves, etc., it was easy to just go off and quest in Kalimdor (or Borean Tundra). As of BfA, working for Sylvanas is unavoidable.
And I mentioned in my post that factions becoming extensions of their leaders was a problem for most WoW races. It’s just the most blatant for the Forsaken.
I’m honestly of the belief that what’s likely to happen is that neither A nor B come to pass.
I think the Forsaken are going to experience being put back in the corner again like they were after the Wrathgate, and when Sylvanas gets cornered? I think her deal with Helya comes back to haunt her at the worst possible time.
Yes, one of the original battlegrounds was optional. Technically so was the Howling Fjord and Dragonblight. And leveling an engineer. If you tried really hard you could avoid Forsaken content.
The standard here isn’t whether something can be avoided, the question is whether something will be missed by the average Horde player.
It’s actually least blatant with Forsaken. The only rational standard to judge this critique by is how much disagreement we find within the faction, and the Forsaken show the most disagreement by far since they host the largest number of defections, rebellions and betrayals. It’s just most talked about with the Forsaken. And that it’s most talked about it may leave people with the false impression that it’s a particular problem there when it’s really not.
People want the Forsaken to be less an extension of their leader’s personality because they don’t like the Forsaken. But you can’t just criticize the Forsaken for doing all of the things that make them the Forsaken so spinning it as another complaint about Sylvanas lets you say you don’t like the Forsaken without having to actually criticize specific things about the Forsaken.
When in reality, if you were serious about this “extension of their leaders personality” problem, you’d actually make an argument by listing points of the Forsaken personality that you’d like to change.
Wow, you sure got kind of hostile toward the end there.
I disagree with you. The fact that a lot of the more objectionable Forsaken content was so easily avoided was intrinsic to how many players would perceive both the Forsaken and the Horde.
Whatever disagreement appears among the Forsaken is quickly destroyed so that Sylvanas can maintain her control. And as a Horde hero, you’re actively helping her even if you, the player do not want to. I haven’t played 8.1, so I don’t know how that Saurfang thing worked out (for the record, I think Saurfang is kind of a putz).
As for changes, I’d like the Forsaken to ditch Sylvanas’s cult of personality. She’s not a terribly interesting character at this point since she lacks any depth. The Forsaken are a race who suffered terribly under undeath—so why is it that everyone who matters is on-board with becoming the next Scourge? Shouldn’t they be deeply distrustful of necromancy? Shouldn’t they hate being controlled by anyone?
Undeath is a curse, but it’s also a sort of reinvention. Let’s see some Forsaken take a more individualistic route that social strictures might have prevented them from exploring in life. This is why the Forsaken are so potentially interesting, and why it’s so disappointing that they’ve just become Scourge 2.0.
Basically, I’d like to see more dissension and disagreement within the Forsaken, and within every other race. Uniformity is dull. And the easiest way to do this would be to scale back on the storyline and just let the setting speak for itself.
Funny thing is. Judging by how the devs and the writers behave, I wouldn’t doubt they think they are writing the greatest video game narrative ever.
Arrogance is a sin when you are a creator on any type of midia cause people like that refuse to see the flaws on their work and improve with criticism.
And they really think they are doing something good and it look like they don’t give one solitary crap about who they are writting for.
When it comes to a level where EVERYTHING new you release about the story is either a plot hole, a completely out of character action or a denial of every rule stabilished up to this point you know they are just doing whatever they want without a single care for consistency.
Take for example the fact now Night elves are CHOOSING to be raised as unded. That’s not only nonsensical because why would a night elf SOLDIER, someone willing to fight and die for their people, WILLINGLY CHOOSE to become an Undead and fight for the person who inflicted genocide upon their people?
Even worse, if Night Elves can just refuse to be raised, then why do we Night Elf Death Knights? Who would willingly CHOOSE to serve the Lich King?
The writters can’t even be bothered about researching the basics of what they are doing on WoWpedia.
From what I’ve heard, the writers really have their hands tied. Developers decide the direction, and the writers basically have to justify their dev’s decisions, even if said decisions are impossible to justify. The idea of switching the NE and Forsaken starting locations may have prompted this, and it’s still possible that the switch will be canceled.
I don’t envy the writing team. Their job is difficult at the best of times.
Really? I never heard about devs deciding the direction, last time I checked they where proudly saying BfA is a character story and that they are paying extra care with the narrative o.O Is there anywhere where they say this?
I thought Stillwater was being brought back or reanimated? Maybe I was mistaken?
I disagree with your premise, and your calling it a fact. The “objectionable” Forsaken content in Cataclysm was more avoidable than the Forsaken content in Vanilla, Burning Crusade and Wrath.
Deathknell, and Tirisfal Glade are Forsaken starting zones, rarely quested in by anyone else but the Forsaken. Silverpine Forrest, Hillsbrad Foothills and Western Plaguelands are questing zones with about 3 or 4 other options within the same level range.
In comparison Arathi Basin was one of only three battlegrounds for a significant time and with it having a unique format and layout, playing it is pretty much required for anyone doing battleground content. Howling Fjord is one of two Northrend starting zones, at the time of Wrath’s launch it was just about guaranteed that any Horde player who is leveling more than one character is going to do that questing. Dragonblight is in the same boat.
This “fact” doesn’t hold up to scrutiny and so you shouldn’t be asking yourself if I sound “hostile” for believing your views are not objective and a likely a cover for a simple desire to revamp a race into something you’d prefer, but why your views aren’t objective.
Now regarding the stuff that you’d like to see changed.
Well, I no longer think you want to revamp the race as you suggest only three actual changes. I’m also deeply suspicious of your knowledge about this race now.
They do hate being controlled by anyone, cornerstone of their society and all that.
This is represented in game. As much as it can be within the structure of WoW. The player is told he is free to make whatever choices he wants the very first moment he is raised. One of the first things the player does is council newly risen dead, one of whom decides to go his own way and cut his own path.
Now Blizzard doesn’t get into slice of life portrayals of everyday life often in game, and BtS gives us our only glimpses into everyday life in Undercity and those glimpses are singularly focused on one very specific, and non representative event at the time.
The Forsaken already… wow, I’m repeating myself now.
Okay, this point has been addressed already earlier. If you wish to cling to this point of view in absence of evidence to the contrary I can’t stop you.
Now, onto your three changes.
You have strong opinions about Sylvanas. Fine, but you’re once more holding Sylvanas to a higher standard than other characters. She easily has more depth than High Tinker Mechatorque, Gallywix, Rockhan, Baine, Bran Bronzebeard, or most other leaders I can think of. But there is no arguing with “I just don’t like her”
So, have your opinion I guess.
This is so vague I’m almost hesitant to respond, but generally when I see this mentioned it amounts to asking why the Forsaken are not nicer.
So you’d like the Forsaken to be nicer.
And you’d like them to abandon necromancy.
Your pitch for Forsaken are “nicer” “Sylvanas free” and “distrustful of necromancy.”
When the current themes of the Forsaken are “sadistic” “Sylvanas loyal” and “use necromancy for some of their most iconic units including undead steeds and abominations.”
Do you think more Forsaken fans want to see your version of bizzaro universe Forsaken, or do you think more Forsaken fans would rather see the faction they’ve played for a decade remain true to itself?
I think most Forsaken fans want to play their characters the way they want to play them. Having a less set-in-stone interpretation of the race makes this easier. Forsaken fans who want to be cruel, vengeful, and loyal should be able to. So too should those who prefer a different route.
And objectivity is pointless in WoW, because lore can and has been retconned without so much as a moment’s notice. I mean, the lore forum’s basically a place to argue for fun.
I want the new UC, if they ever decide to give the forsaken a new home, to have a build a-bom workshop.
I don’t mind having the Voss and Desolate council styled forsaken as a part of them, but all my fave forsaken are getting 0 rep or worse, killed. Why is farnell a random unit in the darkshore warfront and not a boss?! Why is the deathstalker leader just standing around. Why are dark rangers dying left and right.
Right, there are multiple facets to every race. Not all orcs were looking for redemption, some wanted to have that honor heavy war culture. Garrosh showed that.
Exactly. And I think Vanilla got it right since it gave you a lot more slack in how you interpreted the race. One of Cata’s biggest problems is that it started building up more lore, and that new lore doesn’t have much room for dissension and disagreement within races or factions.
Personally, I was a little disappointed that they made Staghelm a bad guy, since it’d have been more interesting to see someone stand up to Malfurion and Tyrande, someone who was maybe a jerk but still had well-thought out reasons for his positions. Granted, I wasn’t surprised they made him a villain, since they foreshadowed that pretty heavily, but it was still disappointing…
I’m with Felya on this one. To make up for the fact they lost Undercity without much or little to none development, where as the Kaldorei get their whole vengeance and savage roots back.
I’d like to see some Forsaken to begin to try and branch off, much like Zelling is in 8.1, give them some humanity instead of constantly just blighting/killing or attempting to raise everything in sight. Sympathy factors and what have you, make the audience feel for the Forsaken instead of just hold them to disgust.
Course, that’s just my outlook. I cannot bash people for enjoying to be bad but I also cannot ignore people want to feel for their race.
Well said. I don’t want people to have to play the Forsaken or any other race in lockstep. I just want everyone to have options.
Yes, because vague, flavorless stories designed to appeal to everybody is almost always the best way to guaranty a quality product.
Based on your suggested changes, you are looking to play a race that is nice, hates Sylvanas and distrusts necromancy. I am prepared to make 7 race suggestions within the game universe that fit all of your requirement.
However, for players who are looking for a race that is sadistic, likes Sylvanas and trusts necromancy. Currently there is only one race in the game that fits that bill. So, with limited time available, I would rather see the Forsaken story and NPC’s accommodate players looking for something they can’t get anywhere else. Even if it means a player like you has to compromise a little by playing a gnome or troll.
I would love that.
I consider the current story to be pretty flavorless and contrived. It’s a big reason why I unsubscribed. Vanilla’s story was close to invisible, and that was one of its strengths. You got a few guidelines, some intriguing ambiguities, and a whole big world to write out your own story.
I’ve never seen an MMO that had particularly good storytelling, which is why I think it’s better for them to act as places where players can come up with their own stories with just a bit of curation and prodding from the developers.