I don’t think it needs a full rework, I think the devs need to finish the rework they started in 10.2.
The extremely weak capstone talents are an indication that there is plenty more to the spec that needs a little TLC after the rework. Too much of the power and playstyle of the spec is in the S3 tier.
However, Disc is supposed to be a void/light hybrid. Maybe leaning so much into Shadow Covenant uptime isn’t ideal, and the light spells and time outside of SC perhaps should be looked at, too.
Yeah my opinion is more that they’ll have time to do reworks like that on an expansion launch, like they always do. We’re bound to get a lot of talent stuff then.
Changing it now on a prayer that there’s a .5 patch for S4 where they change our talents? It just isn’t likely to happen.
This one is tricky, S2’s set bonus was huge for mobility and mana sustain, but s3 in combination with the rework are incredible for both damage and healing. As it stands currently the cheaper casts to Radiance might not be as big a deal but those instant casts felt great to use.
The Disc Revamp in 10.2 was mainly to clean up the overly complex janky dps rotation and to take a lot of the stacking modifiers and push it passively into penance and atonement. However, it failed to address a lot of the underwhelming end-tree talents, but the changes they made were passable enough that Disc ended up stronger in the end.
The S3 tier set pigeonholed you into the Shadow Covenant Mindbender playstyle because of how strong it is when you have a 40-50% uptime on it.
I don’t understand how you guys keep missing the parts where they said they’d balance the specs according to the tier set that is voted upon and wins. This means that since the spec’s balanced around S3, if S2 or 1 wins, they just bump up the CDR of Smite from 2 or 4 seconds to like 4-6 seconds for Mindbender and 8-12 for Shadowfiend. You’ll still have the same windows, it’s just not going to be tied into double smites during Shadow Covenant, that’s it.
They’re the same thing. AI is controlling your thing, it’s something outside of your control, and it’s still a pet that isn’t yourself.
Don’t mix up pets with DoTs, as DoTs are something coming directly from you, the player. This is a spell you activate and having its own damage not tied into the player directly, but to an AI making it attack, aka a pet. You can call it a guardian or a pet, the only difference between the 2 is that 1 is temporary while the other is permanent. It’s the same thing, though, in that it’s not the player dealing the damage ourselves.
If you considered AI/Guardians/Pets to be DoTs, then Demonology and Beast Mastery Hunters would both be DoT specs, which they’re not even close to DoT specs and any who consider them to be DoTs, sorry but you’re very wrong in this.
Nobody cares about the ability, people care about its impact in the talent tree, that’s it. I also don’t support being forced into specific talent choices for tier sets. I don’t care whether it’s a good talent or a bad talent. I don’t like that at all.
It is an everything thing and as you said, my choice, just like I don’t think Disco should be tied into Smite spamming, either. None of this should be what the spec is about, yet you’re fine with it, cool. I’m happy you’re happy with it. Your happiness is infringing on my ability to be happy, so yeah, no. All happiness is not created equal and what this set does is make herpderps more powerful, that’s it. A healer shouldn’t be reliant on DPS, even Disc. That’s very stupid for the HEALING role to be required to do damage, much the same is my disdain for people defending garbage mindsets like this strictly in favor of “I gotta have more.” No, you don’t need more, you need to slow down and stop, and know your role. It’s a healer, not a DPS. Go play Shadow then or some DPS spec if you gotta do more.
Ah, so it is a “I gotta have more” argument side you’re coming from. Again, go play a DPS, same with developers, too. Stop infringing on the roles, or just stop with the roles in the game and put everyone as everything. Either define the roles and keep to it or blur the lines and erase all roles entirely so all roles do everything all at once, and then while you’re at it delete 36 specs of the 39, including 12 of the 13 classes, too, so everyone’s the same exact copy pasta.
Was in a very good spot in S2, too, when you got instant cast Radiances. People loved the spec, especially during keys. The only thing that held the spec back during then was an way too overly complex rotation of 17-28 buttons you needed to push. It needed to be simplified down by a lot so most players can play it decently well.
No spec, I repeat this: No spec at all, needs 12+ button rotations, ever. If you defend this you need to take a look at reality and you need to go take some psychology classes, too, so you can understand how the human mind and body operates. I’d honestly say developers should go and take some Psych classes, too, so they can learn how to design things better for the masses over anything else.
That’s what using your own key is for, though I will defend you on this one because people are derp, but more than that every spec can complete every key up to a +26 in time. Every single spec. META is always going to exist, you’re never gonna get around META or people pushing META stuff because META is the way of life. It just simply means Most Effective Tactics Available. Most people, however, usually don’t care about healers UNLESS they have all DPS without a hero already in the group, then they care about finding a Shaman or Evoker due to drums being useless and those being the only 2 healer classes who have hero/lust/warp. That’s literally it unless you’re talking 22+, which 75% of the entire playerbase doesn’t go above +18s, so again, useless to worry about for the overall playerbase.
Oh hey, look, someone else who considers it to be pets and not guardians. Many many many players consider Mindbender/Shadowfiend to be pets, and not guardians, Ramalama.
I fully agree with this, but it wasn’t, probably because they had planned it to be a probably S4 tier set thing.
They could just nerf Holy’s damage, and every other healer’s actual damage levels because, again, healers should not be looking at your damage unless it’s in a +30 or some stupid nonsense which 96.9% of the entire playerbase will never get to.
I honestly wish they’d just have done this for the 2pc instead of what it is currently: “Your damaging abilities add +2 seconds onto all Atonements out currently for the next 15 seconds after using Power Word: Radiance.” Something like that would have been awesome.
We said the same thing for S2 going into S3, and yet look at how S3 turned out for everyone. Again, going into S4 they already stated they would balance the spec out around whatever tier set wins so thinking they won’t balance Disc around S2 tier piece is insane.
Which would be what, PUGS you say? Yeppo, it is a bit rough in pugs because you’re guaranteed to not have coordination. Oh well, derps are derps and will come out to say stupid things like “oh, well just get your own group of friends.” Something dumb, though they’d be correct.
I 100% agree with you on this. This goes for all 39 specs, too, not just Disco, but if any spec has to rely on a tier set so much then they need to redesign the spec entirely. This is for all specs, I repeat, all specs.
Nobody also had any faith in them going from S2 into S3 when we lost our instant cast Radiances, yet most people love the S3 tier set now. They stated they would balance the spec around whatever tier set wins. I don’t trust them as much to do it 100% correctly, but I do trust they would rebalance the entire spec around S2 to be good enough for S4 if S2 had won.
I do agree with you on this, it relies too much on that area and line, and that the rotation is a lot better. I also think it was way too many buttons, and needed a simplification. Like I said previously, any spec with 12+ button rotations needs to be simplified down to about half of that. Most people are fine with around 6 buttons, could be 1-2 more or less, so 4-8 would be OK in many situations. All of the other healers are similar, they don’t have a lot of buttons in their rotations. The more popular specs also don’t have a lot of buttons in their rotations, too. Don’t need a 3 button spec, but even that is still better than 17 or 24 buttons rotations, by far.
They didn’t say this at all. They said they’d update the set bonus not the spec. Any major reworks to any spec is likely being saved for next expansion. They’re done making huge adjustments to specs in 10.2.5 and it launches next week. It’s much easier to tweak gear than it is to tweak a spec based off of what tier set is chosen.
Said here by Kaivax:
DPSing during downtime has been a thing forever. If you don’t like it, no ones stopping you. But you’re probably playing the wrong damn spec then
DPSing during downtime is fine, but you’re a healer first and foremost. If they buff Atonement healing more, then you don’t need to worry about how much damage you’re doing anywhere close to as much as people worry about it now. An example: if Atonement was 150% healing per damage, so 1 damage would be 1.5 healing, then worrying about your damage is way less of a thing than right now with it being what, .4% of your damage right now for Atonement healing?
They could nerf your damage a good bit and you’d still come out with huge healing due to the scaling of Atonement damage into healing modifier.
And if the set bonus is allowing the spec to play within windows where everyone wants, that, too, would be them updating it. Say we lost S3 tier set and it was S1 or S2, all they’d have to do, then, is update 2 talents in the tree to modify your windows where you’re back to S3 windows. They adjust the Train of Thought Penance reduction to 1 second, and then the Void Summoner just double it to 4 seconds and 8 seconds respectively, and it’s done again, too, as if you had your S3 tier set.
Discipline actually used to be about shielding and healing back in the day, then it went to being about dealing damage and healing over shielding, then some other form, and now it’s all 3. Nonetheless, I didn’t say do no damage, I said slow down on trying to top the meters basically with “I gotta deal MORE damage.” No, you don’t. You’re a healer first and foremost, and again if they fix the conversion rate of damage into healing ratio, then you don’t need to do a lot of damage to get a lot of healing out of it.
Basically people keep trying to think of it as a DPS spec rather than a healing spec and I’m trying to reign in the DPS mindset of that because it is straight up nonsense. Most people’s complaints about dealing less damage is because that means they do less healing from resulting doing said less damage, but if they fixed that conversion rate then their worries go out the door.
The only hit point that matters is the last one, and the mobs that die faster deal less damage than the ones you heal more against. If it isn’t at the cost of a party member’s life then there’s no reason not to push for doing more damage, as any healer, but especially disc priest
That’s literally only at the absolute highest of cutting edge, which less than 3% of the entire WoW population reaches. The specs shouldn’t be designed around nor for the highest skilled players, but for the average player which encompasses more than 60% of the playerbase.
If you looked at healing as a whole, most of the playerbase, at least 51% of healers that, would argue and go for more HPS and more healing over more damage. The only reason some don’t is because of boredom or because they get ridiculed by tanks and DPS players who don’t understand how healing works and that their +22 level keystone isn’t failed because the healer didn’t do enough damage, but because the DPS didn’t do their job better or the tank didn’t pull faster and more mobs when they could and should have.
Healing is the only role that you shouldn’t worry about your DPS, regardless of Disc or not, it doesn’t matter. I’ll say it again, healers should never worry about dealing damage nor how much damage they’re doing, unless it’s +30 or higher level keys which are the highest of high keys. Keys should be designed and timers given with healers expected to do 0 damage from the entire dungeon and then any damage from that is straight up bonus damage.
The healing role is the most convoluted role in this game because people like you, who are highly skilled, keep thinking and going “I have to be entertained.” No, you don’t.
Casting Smite when you would otherwise be standing there twiddling your thumbs is not limited to the top 1%
The highest key I have ever personally done is like a +8, and the last time I’ve even set foot in a current raid above LFR was Emerald Nightmare, with a raid group that couldn’t even down normal Ursoc (and I wasn’t even a healer for that). Mostly out of a lack of interest, but I digress, just because I’m willing to use my full toolkit doesn’t mean I’m a 1% sweatlord
That’s specific. Show the evidence then.
but instant radiance :[
I think Blizzard is basically done with class tuning for the rest of the expansion because if you look at the road-map the alpha for the next expansion starts just as Season 4 comes out. 10.2.6 might have some changes, but not really much.
Not to change the subject, though personally I think Radiance should be instant cast baseline instead of a chance in a temporary Tier set.
You mean the evidence that if you ask random healers that are in anywhere up to +20s, about whether they’d rather heal or do damage in their key, as a healer, whether they rather go for more HPS and healing above doing more damage? Literally go ask every healer that is not a cutting edge person about how they feel about healing.
Again, the more skilled as a player, the more things you need to engage your brain in order to satisfy and entertain you. That doesn’t apply to most of the playerbase who just runs a +20 or less each week, does dungeons for gear instead of fun, etc. Most of those stick to their role, and half or more of those don’t even cast many damage spells, except occassionally, if they want to.
The evidence is right in your runs, go ask all non 20+ pushing keystone healers. If you pug into a +10, go ask that healer whether they’d prefer their healer doing more damage or doing more healing. I bet more than half of them would tell you they’d prefer doing more healing over more damage.
This is also true in the many “healers should be doing more damage” threads we had popping up in the last decade, if you want to look at those.
9 times out of 10 people the only ones saying “I would prefer more damage” are usually those with higher skills and it’s simply because they don’t want to be bored, nothing more. “I don’t want to sit around doing nothing.” Meaning “I don’t want to be bored.” While most of the players that do healing would actually prefer doing just that if they’re not healing in that moment.
This post reads so much like someone trying to excuse their own failings. “The only people who care about performing more than the absolute barest minimum of their role are the tryhard sweatlords running 30+ keys because they don’t want to be bored” lol
No, it’s telling you most of the players don’t care to run 20+ level keystones. Dungeons aren’t fun. Affixes suck, regardless of the week because there are no good affixes like Encrypted anymore. If they took out 95-100% of these current affixes, excluding Tyrannical and Fortified, and put in many of the seasonal affixes from BFA and SL as regular affixes then it would be a 100% better experience playing dungeons. If you had to deal with Fortified, Encrypted and Reaping as your affixes, that would make most of the players very happy doing keys. Those last 2 are very fun and cool affixes alone, if you combined them? Hella good time. Blizzard just sucks at figuring out what affixes people want, and then giving them those affixes instead of garbage.
They could also keep a few of the current ones like Sanguine and modify Sanguine to where it leaves a pool and anything in it, friend or foe, could absorb it and it just has an absorption limit of like 10% of that mobs max hp or something, each second standing in it, per creature, takes off 1% of the absorption of the pool. Things like that would make that affix 100% better, yet we don’t see stuff like that.
Keys are fine to those who like doing them, but most players simply do keys just for gear. They log in, do a weekly key for the vault loot, then 2-4 raid bosses, maybe 3 more keys if that, and then they’re done on that toon for the week until vault or raid time.
My guild, for instance, like 4 of the people entirely like keys out of over 20 of them that don’t enjoy keys. The rest do keys simply because we told them they gotta complete 1 key per week to help the gearing process. I know of over 300 more guilds similar, too, where most of their members couldn’t care less about dungeons but only about the loot the dungeons have and the vault, that’s it. Many of the pugs when I pug into raids and I start chatting with people; same thing. Most people just don’t like keys. They put up with it for gearing purposes, but they don’t care or like to actually do them. The affixes are too terrible, half of them don’t like the fact it’s timer based, and then others just hate how snobby people get. Every key of every level below a 25 can easily be timed by every single spec in this game, all you have to do is stay alive and that’s it. Do damage, stay alive, you’ll time the key. Die and it’s over or most likely over. It’s really good for such lenient timers, but at the same time the dungeons ain’t too fun, the affixes are meh at best, and then add in how snobby people are about any and every little thing from classes they choose down to the specs, to the talents, the trinkets, CDs, and everything else and it’s like it’s a job without you being paid. That’s not fun for most people. They come to play this game to get away from work, not to do more of it, especially to not get paid for said work, too. They come to escape real life into this world and get away from their lives, yet snobby people keep trying to act like it’s a job and stuff, it ain’t unless you’re a streamer, dev or world first/MDI/TGP player.
Everything you just said has absolutely nothing to do with using your full kit and doing dps as a healer when the situation allows
There’s a clear choice here. I don’t even want to think about playing without season 3 tier.
(I really like the way it plays and I’ve wanted better Mindbender since BFA.)