Pservers allowed players to see and experience content that many haven’t in 15 years.
Re-familiarity with BiS items, game mechanics, encounter mechanics, ratios, coefficients, and so and and so forth. For many of that required a bit of a refresher course.
Additionally many players never saw AQ40 in vanilla, or at least didn’t delve deep into the zone.
Hence my point regarding AQ40 and Naxx adaptation.
I agree with that.
However many guilds that breezed through MC required time to either clear the instance or had to work to reduce kill times on Nef and Chrom.
Early kills on both of those bosses were frequently around 4 minutes for many guilds during the first month, or even longer.
Once you hit Twin Emps in AQ40 and beyond, its going to be quite an adjustment for many…let alone Cthun and beyond.
Moreover most believe that melee dps will continue to scale as well as caster DPS…and it won’t.
Mages and Locks will ramp up much harder than Warriors and Rogues. It doesn’t mean that both won’t top the meters, but it won’t be with the commanding lead that they accomplish it now.
Stacking World buffs to the degree that is currently being done adds alot of DPS foundation that elevates melee DPS currently.
Heroic ulduar doesn’t exist, it was just Ulduar, and it wasn’t harder than sunwell plateau, people were pugging ulduar 10/25 in trade, sunwell was NEVER EVER pugged. trial of the grand crusader was so easy you could pug it, and I even have the achievement a tribute to mad skill (heroic, 45 attempts remaining/50) that I did in /2 trade pug.
Def not harder than SWP
if s.w.p being the hardest raid ever is so funny, than what raid has a tougher dps check than brutallus and tougher smart brains checks than felmyst/muru/kiljaeden ?
Also, did you even kill brutallus in burning crusade? because lets be honest, nobody in this thread did.
I joined the guild after they had been wiping on Brutallus for weeks—I think we wiped for hours the night/day that I joined and then we got it the next day or something like that. But the sigh of relief that came from the guild when we downed it—I could tell they really struggled with it lol.
Then we could never get the mechanics down pat for Felmyst—a lot to coordinate between the portals and teleporting (I think that was Felmyst where you get teleported between like a shadow zone and your regular zone?).
It was for sure the hardest raid I had ever done—then again we had BT on farm by the time I joined so honestly didn’t get to experience that progression-wise.
With specific hardmodes across the board minus a few bosses. 0-Light Yogg was “Heroic” Yogg, just as Algalon was hardmode only.
Every keeper’s hardmode with the exception of the speed kill were more difficult, with Mimiron and Yogg being decidedly more difficult. You’re comparing the non-hardmode versions of Ulduar to a “hardmode only” Sunwell.
LOL suuuuuuure
Hardmodes for Freya, Mimiron, Thorim, General Vezax, Iron Council, and Algalon were all at or above SWP levels of difficulty. Kalecgos wasn’t difficult and Brutallus was all about proper DPS and Healer competency in keeping up Burns.
i would say that the dps check of hodir’s hard mode was comparable to the dps check of brutallus. The difference being that hodir also required execution of a strat on top of blasting
I felt his DPS check wasn’t nearly as bad as Brutallus because you could largely have a few competent folks ensure the buff got out to everyone super fast and stayed up. Properly executed you had lots of free time to spare to get Hodir down in time, whereas Brutallus was a bit tighter.
It could also be that during that summer when SWP released, we had a lot of folks just disappear and suddenly have erratic schedules so it could be that my particular guild instability contributed to feeling like SWP was harder, at least compared to speed killing Hodir.
I mean… these are basically the same thing. ToC gear was such a massive increase in base stats that most of Ulduar became very trivialized due to higher player health and damage. The broad nerfs to all raid content in 3.0 accomplished much the same thing.
you do realize over 100 guilds killed KT before the TBC prepatch https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/8kcgtt/the_real_list_of_59_useu_guilds_that_cleared_naxx/
lists 101 confirmed pre prepatch and 131 before TBC released with 4 guilds that have unconfirmed kill dates.
SWP is up there, but most certainly not the hardest. Let’s look at objective facts here. You like to bash ToGC, so we’ll throw that in for a comparison.
SWP: 377 guilds cleared while current (aka before end of expasion nerfs). That’s was 0.69% of the raiding population. SWP was out for a shorter than average window for a raid (avg is ~183 days being current content), so if we extrapolate that to the average, ~0.86% would have cleared.
ToGC: 372 guilds cleared Anub 50 25 while current, or 0.62% of the raid pop at the time. Standardized to 183 days, we can estimate ~0.91% would have cleared. SWP saw ~2.6 guilds clear it every day it was current, vs. 3.0 for ToGC. Both had incredibly similar full completion rates, but to be fair this is only if you include the attempt system.
Ulduar: 11 guilds cleared this while it was current if you count Yogg 0 25 as the true end boss, 100 if it’s Algalon. Either way, this was undisputedly the most exclusive raid clear in WoW’s history. I won’t get into the details of what the Hard Mode Keepers, General, Algalon, and Yogg 0 required, but as a whole this raid was inarguably the most difficult raid, relative to skill of the current player base, of all time.
Other raids that had a lower # of kills/day, and completion rates than SWP were Naxx 40 and ToV Mythic, with ICC 25H coming very close as well.
If you’re talking sheer difficulty in terms of throughput, awareness, and mobility, than none of the above really compare to modern mythic raids besides a few moments on a handful of fights.
comparing Firemaw’s difficulty to C’thun or Huhuran’s is kinda asinine. Your GDKP or pug is going to have to be coordinated enough that i am not comfortable calling them a pick-up anymore. Shoot, if your GDKPs are anything like Whitemane’s then those can’t really be called pick-ups. Same 30 people with rotating 10 that are different as buyers. That’s basically what a guild is.
Not particularly. Firemaw PuGs still require spending some time telling everyone how to stand and where, including Tanks and Healers.
C’thun is largely about being hypercritical about your positioning.
Huhu will literally be a “do we have enough DPS to burn through her” or not as you could demand everyone spread and just zerg her down.
Some PuGs are really bad yes. I did a GDKP BWL that failed at Razorgore and fell apart after two runs. I’ve also done full runs. 10 people “carrying” 30 is still very much a PuG, unless you want to call the coordination required on C’thun manageable by a mere quarter of the raid.