Well, by that metric, there are no such thing as “competent leaders.”
Certainly not. But then again, we´re talking here about the story made by Mr. “All the lore is relative”. No surprises there.
The Theorycrafting of Reloretivity.
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Re - lore - tivity?
Reverse movement knowledge? The reverse knowledge movement? Reverse knowledge movements?
“Retcon theory” scientifically?
I mean, okay - you’re conveying information about the subject that the Night Elves were sent to spy on - not information that they would have been privy to before said spying. Given that Kael’thas’s fel-infused blood elves are on Azuremyst and Bloodmyst at the same time, that’s important context.
Someone evidently skipped my post. Go back and check again Kyalin. Cause the “Rise of the Horde” novel starts with Thrall trying to make a hilarious attempt at making a “Horde autobiography” or something. And he explicitly mentions the Blood Elves as members of that “current Horde” at that precise moment in time.
At the end of the book -after his complete recollection on the deeds and misdeeds of the old Horde- one of his fancy Human spies arrives to Orgrimmar to notify him of the arrival short of a night ago of the Draenei and the Prophet Velen.
If Belf questing in Ghostlands happens BEFORE the elves joined the Horde (cause as we all know, the Belves have to complete the whole Ghostlands quest chain to get the item that sends one to Orgrimmar and officially make the race members of the Horde), then how could the Nelves be aware of the whole crapstatic issue regarding Kael´s Sunfury Blood Elves? Especially when they haven´t even arrived back to Azeroth in the hijacked Exodar in the first place, hmm? Did the Nelves “predicted the future” or something?
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Not information I was privy to, but I suppose you think Teldrassil was justified now.
Congratulations.
I am actually as surprised as you are.
It is actually a very great find - I didn’t know we actually had confirmation as to whether what came first, the draenei or blood elf questline.
Huh.
Anywho, I do not think anyone tries to justify Teldrassil, most Horde players are still rather mad about the whole thing. And I still argue against the Horde leaderships’ willingness to continue with the Horde under Sylvanas’ leadership, after the burning of Teldrassil.
Any storyteller with just a hint of common sense, would know that it required some very, very sneaky, crafty lie from Sylvanas to have the other Horde leaders continue follow her, otherwise they would just have left her and the forsaken to their fate at that point. Potentially actually taking the forsaken that did not wish to follow Sylvanas anymore after that, under their own protection.
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we all think blizzard blatantly lied to us. I hope the promise to leave the horde alone is real
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I don’t recall any such promises being made.
Ion in an interview saying that something like the internal conflicts of the horde were going to stop being an issue but that they were going to explore that in the alliance, before to shadowlands if I remember correctly
I’m pretty sure he also said that Sylvanas wasn’t gonna be another Garrosh and BFA was gonna have faction pride moments for both sides so forgive me if I don’t believe him
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true and it was all a deliberate lie to make shadowlands a “surprise”
Actually no.
Thrall writes this book about the Horde, while he is in Azeroth. He does really thinks about Blood Elves, as a Horde members.
But, in the game, after we defeat DarKhan and finishing quests in Ghostlands, Lorthemar says, that now this will be a proof of our strength, and now the Horde will finally allow us to join:
So, Blood Elves were trying to join the Horde for some time, but some of the Horde allies were against this, and wanted a proof.
Later Lorthemar sends a message to Sylvanas, in that message he says, that he also got an approval from Thrall in his message from Outland:
And finally, Saurfang, the current leader of the Orgrimmar, takes all the documents, and calls Blood Elves as a new members of the Horde:
So, its a fact, that Blood Elves were not yet in the Horde, when Thrall have left Azeroth. They were not a members of the Horde, when Thrall wrote his book.
So what we got? Thrall was thinking about the Blood Elves as a members of the Horde (but not yet real members, because they still needed a proof). Thrall founds out about Draenei landing and joining the Alliance, while he was writing his book in Azeroth. Only after that, he went to Outland, from where he finally approve invitation of the Blood Elves.
So this how story was - at first Draenei crashed on Azeroth. Then Night Elves helped Draenei to fight against Blood Elves in their quest lines, which ended with Draenei joining the Alliance. Thrall founds about that while writing his book, and leaves Azeroth. After that Alliance sends spies to Ghostlands, which were killed by Blood Elves players in their quest lines. And only after that Blood Elves officially joints the Horde.
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Uhhh… man, the easiest explanation on why Thrall believes Belves are members of the Horde at the time he is making his baby attempts to write an autobiographical recollection of the Horde is because they ARE already members of the Horde.
Your premise is basically “nuuu!!! BOTH questing zones happen simultaneously!!”… and sorry to burst your bubble, but questing in different zones can AND does happen at different points in time.
Everything you quote can (and according to this canon lore novel, DOES) happen BEFORE Velen and his merry band of Naaru worshipping subjects arrive on Azeroth. Please, go back and read the pages I provided (well, if the link i provided still works…), the cue on the “time” expent writting this words IS in the artistic design of the text: the cursive is the words Thrall is putting on paper, so the novel is a recollection that at the most took him some minutes in the best case or some hours at the worst case. Not the entire “weeks” you are trying to sell in here. NOTHING in the game establishes both questing zones happen at the same point in time.
Also, the Belves joined BEFORE he travelled to Outland, the negotiations were being conducted before this event as per “Blood of the Highborne” (no seriously, go check. The reason why Rommath task Liadrin with killing Galell after he went cuckoo was precisely that his actions could damage the ongoing negotiations for the Belves to join the Horde); as the questing you provide establishes, the Orcs only demanded the Belves proof they weren´t going to be burden on the faction, the whole “we discovered Mag´har in Outland” was just a bonus, NOT the reason that ultimately cause the admission of the Belves in the red faction).
Why are some of you Nelf fans so… desperately bitter over this correction? Yes, the old lore dev team were not shy about softcore “villain batting” on the Alliance races (Nelves acting like a-holes towards the Belves with no apparent good reason? check. Dwarves acting like psychos and killing Tauren tribes cause they dared to live above “muh PRECIOUS ruins”? check. Humans building a military outpost just around the corner of Orgrimmar to harrass the Orcs AND the Darkspear Trolls? check), that´s NO big deal. If anything it makes the story better cause then YOUR races are more organically natural and not perfect one-dimensional Gary Stus / Mary Sues who only can appear in the story to play the victim to the Big Bad Horde.
The credit goes to a EU forums poster -when she called it, I of course looked for the source and yes, I was surprised too back then).
Man, how terribly distanced has people become of the old WC3 Nelves… in that game they aren´t “nature oriented angels”, Tyrande is legitimately a borderline sociopath. I never liked her because I felt her treatment of the Wardens clearly crossed scumbag territory… and the only reason she was “cordial” to Kael was because it was convenient for her, not out of the goodness of her heart).
/groans
Kyalin, stop cattering to your inner NEFPA, I know you are better than that. And NO, this certainly does NOT mean “Teldrassil was justified” or any other similarly rdiculous take, it simply shows the writer in-charge of “A Good War” could have used a better canon lore reason to make Lorash angry than to wreck the whole “thalassian elf ageing” process with the superficial reasoning he put on the story.
Yes, Nelves can act like a-holes sometimes, deal with it. Sorry NOT sorry the old lore dev team didn´t run ASAP to whitewash all and every questionable act made by Alliance races / members.
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Safe to say.
Even without this confirmation, we knew night elves could be bumholes.
They were happy enough to let children starve to death, because of some incident that neither faction had any involvement in.
Not to mention Tyrande’s Rambo attack on Horde and Alliance back in WC3
And their overall lack of communication with people who know not of Night Elves, violence first always… unless the druids are involved.
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No, please re-read my post. I am saying that Draenei quest line have happened before Thrall have left to Outland. While Blood Elves quests have happened much later, when Thrall was already in Outland.
So, I am not saying that those quest lines have happened simultaneously, no, Blood Elves quest line happened much later.
Yes, its a fact, that negotiation have happened before the Outland. And as a fact, those negotiation have happened before even Blood Elves quest lines.
And no, final decision according to the quests have happened after Thrall left to the Ourland.
Again, in that book, Thrall speaks about Blood Elves, as a possible Horde members, but he does not says that they joined the Horde already. Also he does not mention anything about Night Elves spies.
But he does says that Draenei already here, while he is in Azeroth. So while he is in Azeroth, Alliance quest line already finished.
And yet in the Blood Elves quest line (where they met Night Elves spies), Blood Elves join the Horde only AFTER he left to Outland.
So, its a fact, that Draenei quest line happens before Blood Elves quest line. The books does not retcone this fact.
I don’t care about Night Elves fans. I just talking about facts.
- There is a fact, that Thrall was in Azeroth when he wrote his book. In this book he mentioned that Draenei are already members of the Alliance. So Alliance quest line, where Draenei joints the Alliance, after fighting Blood Elves, is already finished.
- There is a second fact, that Blood Elves quest line, where they met Night Elves, ends with joining the Horde, when Thrall is already in Outland. So, its a fact, that the Horde quests happens later.
That is it. And yes, you can call me some Night Elves fan, but for me, it does sounds more logical that Night Elves have send spies only after the conflict in Azuremyst as a сounteraction. More logical than what you suggest, that Tyrande and Night Elves are just crazy monsters, who decided to attack on Blood Elves without a reason…
Do you really believe in that? Do you really believe that the city that stands on the sea, city that has a fleet, was starving and could not fish, and the only food they could get was from hunting in the wild forests?
Thrall was just lied, trying to convince Jaina to his side. When he was talking about starving kids he did not even knew that those orcs who he protects in that dialog were not even a Horde Members. So this was just a propaganda, to defend his faction members, when he was unaware about real deals that are going on.
In fact, after 11 years, there are still NO details about Night Elves and Orcs trade contract. There were no details what Night Elves government was really thinking at that moment.
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I thought the end of that questline finishes with the blood elf character reporting about joining the horde to Thrall. Am I misremembering, or was that retconned?
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Yes, and the Belves joined the faction BEFORE he travelled to Outland too, your point?
Quote the lore source that explicitly establishes THIS. Cause I have found NOTHING official saying the “Belves joined the Horde AFTER Thrall traveled to Outland”. As a matter of fact, one literally sees Thrall appear in Nagrand in-game AFTER Hellfire Peninsula questing. Where you know, the Belves are ALREADY members of the Horde. Go and check Thrallmar, you will see AT THE MINIMUM 5 or 6 Blood elf NPCs, inclusing the jewerly trainer.
The novel contradicts your premise. The GAME contradicts your premise (I mean, my Belf main never had to travel to Outland looking for Thrall… he was fine and dandy sitting on his “throne” in Orgrimmar, as usual…).
So far the only thing you have proven is that you REFUSE to read the lore and are too invested in defending your baseless headcanon.
He literally says -and I quote from the “Rise of the Horde” canon novel-: This is the tale not of the Horde as it exists today, a loose organization of orc, tauren, forsaken, troll and blood elf, but of the rise of the very first Horde.
I don´t see the words “maybe”, “possible”, “potential” or any other descriptor that would imply the Blood elves may become Horde but aren´t. No dude, Thrall DIRECTLY calls them “Horde”… members of the HORDE. Already at that point in time.
No “vagueness” whatsoever.
/rofl
Let´s see the actual novel quotes:
“Your news” Thrall said
The man palled. Thrall sighed inwardly. He would never be so brutal -or so foolish- as to kill a messenger for bringing bad news. Such behaviour merely resulted in no one´s wanting to serve as a messenger. He smiled in what he hoped was a reassuring fashion.
“Do not fear. Your news, good or ill, is welcome if it aids me in protecting my people.” he said.
The man looked slightly less distressed. He took a deep breath.
“My lord”, he said. He hesitated, then continued grimly, “The draenei have come to Azeroth.”
Thrall was puzzled. He exchanged glances with Eitrigg, who shrugged.
“Some draenei have been in Azeroth for years.” he said “They are nicknamed the lost ones. We know about them. This is not news, friend.”
The man looked stricken. “You don´t understand,” he said, urgently. "Not those pathetic creatures- draenei! There-there was ship. From the skies. It crashed like an infernal stone two nights ago."
Thrall inhaled swiftly. No one had missed seeing that strange object in the night sky. Looking like a star crashing to earth. So… it had not been a star, nor even an infernal. It had been a vessel…
The man was still talking. “Proudmoore has agreed to aid them. There is one among them-pale, noble. His presence commanding, though he is not physically strong. They call him Velen”.
Me thinks the whole novel paragraph PLUS the in-game quest DID retcon your “facts”. Facts that btw I am still waiting for a canon lore source, btw. Not your words, but actual quest text or a quote from a novel or any indication that contradicts both Blood elf questing in Eversong and Ghostlands AND general Horde questing in Hellfire Peninsula and Nagrand.
Heck, one sees Thrall arrive in Nagrand AFTER like completing half of the questing there, ffs!!.
Your “logical” intakes are irrelevant as far as canon lore is concerned. Not my fault both the game AND the novels destroyed your “logical take”.
The only fact here is that both the Dwarves AND the Nelves decided that ignoring the Belves suffering and trolling them was an A-Ok first class move, period.
As the biggest Belf fangirl -who leveled multiple Belves at the start of her player career- I can corroborate the very ending on Ghostlands questing has one traveling first to Undercity -to take to Sylvanas the memento related to Alleria (that´s the part too when she used to chant “Lament of the Highborne” in-game btw) AND after this she sends the Belf NPC to Orgrimmar with the recommendation letter AND Thrall welcomes us Belves to the Horde!!.
BfA children detected… remember Sarm, when one´s toons HAD TO be of an especific “level” to access questing zones? Outland wasn´t available until after one reached lvl 59 or 60 if my memory is right…. Someone may please check in current Classic TBC, perhaps?
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Thrall did not travel to Outland before he got confirmation that the Mag’har were still alive and keeping control of a part of the broken world.
Information which Thrall was given by the Blood Elves (The player elf, in fact) as an added enticement for their joining.
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