People who have had their souls supernaturally manipulated should be given another chance in the Shadowlands, yes.
Sylvanas is probably not one of those people whose soul counts as supernaturally manipulated.
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He took her ravaged body and cast unholy spells upon it! Creating from what had once been good a thing of evil! He twisted the soul of Sylvanas Windrunner and turned her into the Banshee she is now! - Trilogy
Sounds like manipulation to me.
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- No, she was the same. In death as in life.
- - Edge of Night
Sounds like retcon to me.
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In context the author is specifically talking about Sylvanas philosophy on “arrows in the quiver” being exactly the same as it was in life. IIRC she used that exact same phrase when Arthas and the Scourge was invading Quel’thalas. I just can’t for the life of me believe that the Sylvanas that was saving little blood elf children is the same one that had her soul twisted by Arthas.
Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not, but I just can’t see it.
This is what I think of when I think of 99.9% of the Forsaken:
“How fascinating. I thought you looked sickly - but now I see the truth. Your people suffer under the weight of a terrible darkness. What strength you must have, simply to press on forward!” - Lorewalker Cho
There seems to be a war in the soul, a struggle if you will, of what the Forsaken were when they were alive vrs the curse of undeath. Prime example for Sylvanas is when she reunited with her sisters and Blightcaller.
That is the context that I am talking about, yes. What probably condemned her to the Maw was her willingness to do things like using her plague on an innocent young girl to test its potency in the Arthas: Rise of the Lich King novel. The context Edge of Night gave us was that she was always capable of using people for her own ends, just those ends in life were defending Quel’thalas, and in death it was no longer altruistic and how she used people went from in service of others to irredeemable.
I think you are right on this, though, especially considering in Bastion there are Forsaken souls - not renewed-to-Human souls the way Sylvanas’ soul was a High Elf soul again in Edge of Night - that are becoming Kyrians for their service in undeath.
Once again, Sylvanas was not one of these, and John Hight specified in his Blizzcon interview that the souls were being diverted to the Maw in Legion, and Sylvanas’ suicide was a few expansions before that.
I think your point of “Sylvanas is the same as she was in life” hits a brick wall when considering Sylvanas’ resting place. If Sylvanas is the same, shouldn’t she have the same fate? If arrows in the quiver(undead) is exactly the same as arrows in the quiver(alive) why didn’t she go to the same exact place instead of the maw, after she died the 1st time?
I believe that Sylvanas has had her soul twisted and manipulated to where she will never be the same unless we’re able to reverse what ever craziness that Arthas did to her soul.
No, because she did worse things after being raised from the dead. Her crimes after being raised were worse than when she first died.
Opposite, for all we know some of those Forsaken Kyrians had ignoble afterlives from their first deaths, but then did enough good in service of the Horde in their undeath that they got to go to Bastion instead.
By your logic, none of the good they did in undeath counted, since that wasn’t their original fate.
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It sounds like what you want is the possibility Cairne and Hamuul saw for them 
The first sign of hope came from an unexpected place: the tauren. An archdruid named Hamuul Runetotem looked past the undead’s monstrous exterior and believed that they could be redeemed and revived—perhaps not physically, but spiritually. He brought the Forsaken ambassadors to meet with Cairne Bloodhoof, high chieftain of the tauren tribes, and Cairne agreed that the undead should be given a chance to thrive.
Unfortunately the writing team is very devoted to retroactively making Horde leaders and their decisions look idiotic (Thrall believing Sylvanas had no involvement in the Wrathgate, Thrall reinstating Sylvanas after the Battle for Undercity, Thrall appointing Garrosh, Baine forgiving Garrosh for Cairne’s death, Thrall reinstating Gallywix, Vol’jin appointing Sylvanas, Saurfang initially going along with Sylvanas, etc.) so I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamuul and Cairne seeing anything in Sylvanas and the Forsaken and convincing Thrall to accept them is the next big screw up on the list. =(
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Now we’re cooking with grease! I believe all the undead should return to the same place that they were destined for pre soul manipulation. I really want to go deep with this discussion, I have sooooo much to discuss on this topic. Hopefully we can will pick it up later, but now I got to go. Have a GN.
Full circle, but I’ll move us out of this circle if we pick this conversation back up : )
Good night!
Though, if the Kyrians are any indication, I don’t think that’s going to happen.
I certainly don’t believe it should happen for Sylvanas.
So far, I hypothesize the following:
- Undead that had their souls twisted (a.k.a. only feel negative emotions or otherwise have their minds altered by undeath) show up in the Shadowlands as Undead even in their afterlife.
- Undead that are not twisted by undeath show up in the Shadowlands with their living bodies again.
The first should be given another chance in the Shadowlands because of the supernatural manipulation of their souls. The second group should not. As seen in Edge of Night, Sylvanas is in the second group.
Again refer to Prince Kaelthas with that theory that doing bad things after being a good person can damn you to the Maw.
Also again the system of death reaching complete diversion to the Maw come Legion doesn’t say that’s when the problem started, and there isn’t anything that happened early in Legion that would explain things suddenly breaking all at once.
Further trying to treat undeath as a nonfactor in warping somebody’s personality and actions is short sighted when we know it limits their ability to process emotions in any sort of a normal healthy state.
Slyvanas more than any other Forsaken is broken since Arthas purposely let her remain conscious when she was raised so she would have to experience everything she was made to do. Other Forsaken were more in a drone like state during their enslavement to the Lich King, and don’t have full recollection of what it was like and what they did.
That Kael’thas went to Revendreth is not evidence that Sylvanas deserved to go to Revendreth. Before his setback at Tempest Keep finally broke him mentally, everything Kael’thas did was for the Blood Elves. Everything Sylvanas did after she got her free will back was to kill Arthas, not for any even remotely altruistic reasons, as very much specified by Edge of Night.
We’ll find out more in Shadowlands.
Not all undead experience this. I do not believe Sylvanas experienced this.
We have many examples of mind controlled undead being aware of what they were doing. In fact, most examples are of this. The woman in Kel’Thuzad’s short story Road To Damnation. Thassarian in the Death Knight manga. I think there was another comic or manga where another undead talked about being aware of everything they did while under the Lich King’s control, but it escapes me for now. But Sylvanas is not unique in this way.
I think the Kyrians have less to do with it, I’ve been eyeing the Arbiters.
The Arbiter is an ancient, mysterious being who dwells in the center of the city of Oribos and judges mortal souls that enter the Shadowlands. Her existence predates all memory—even older than the titans, according to some accounts. When a soul is brought before the Arbiter, all of its contents—deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures—are instantly laid bare, absorbed, and understood by her. The Arbiter then sends the soul off to one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, determined by the soul’s character.
The Arbiters are the ones that sent Sylvanas to the maw unfairly. They need to be fired. Why should certain people get a do over while others are stuck like chuck in w/e realm the arbiters decide on?
Its only fair that the Arbiter send those souls back to where they were originally, especially in the cases were those souls judged were twisted by necromancy and or dark magic.
It was Edge of Night were I learned that the Arbiters are sending souls that were manipulated and changed by necromancy to the Maw.
Nothing implies this. In fact, the Forsaken souls in Bastion proves this is not true.
If they did something of their own, untwisted free will the that’s part of the deeds the Arbiter should judge everyone by.
I think at least they should be sent to some sort of Shadowlands ICU to get their souls repaired and healed, and then they can be put back to their original fate.
Just putting them back without undoing the damage done to their personalities could just end up bad, like the Forsworn in Bastion.
I believe the Arbiter sent Sylvanas to the Maw fairly and was probably doing a good job until whatever broke the Shadowlands happened.
There was no implications involved, they straight up sent Sylvanas to the maw after she had her soul twisted by Arthas. I’m not sure what you mean by Forsaken souls in Bastion, but I find the Aribiters highly suspect for sending souls that were twisted by necromancy to the Maw.
How many chances should they get and are those chances available to everyone? I would like to see everyone on the same playing field. Sylvanas was on her way to a peaceful afterlife, She than had her soul manipulated and twisted by Arthas. I’m not even considering their(Forsaken) time spent enthralled by the Lich King, it doesn’t matter. I’m speaking specifically about every moment they spent after being yanked from the Shadowlands the first time.
The Arbiter’s boss need to schedule more training for them.
I feel you on this. A soul should be its original whole self when in Shadowlands.
So you think the Arbiters did a great job at sending Sylvanas to a peaceful afterlife and then to the Maw after having her soul twisted and manipulated by Arthas? Sorry I’m not on board lol, if it comes back that these Arbiters are incompetent you’ll never hear the end of it from me lol.
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I mean at Blizzcon Bastion was playable on the show floor and there were Forsaken souls (Undead even in the afterlife, not Human souls again) in Bastion becoming Kyrian, which obviously had to be placed there by the Arbiter before the Shadowlands broke and thus souls twisted by necromancy do not get sent to the Maw by the Arbiter just for having been undead.
You can see Forsaken Aspiring Souls here at the 5 minute mark:
As such:
Should what we saw in the Bastion show floor playthrough go live and be canon, this is not the case for all souls twisted by necromancy.
Chances? If they have regained their free will the chance they are given is the undeath they then lived. They get the same chance as everyone else. And if they did irredeemable things once they regained their free will they go to the Maw. Or, as referenced above, if they did with proper dedication in service to people they go to Bastion. And if they, for example, have good intentions but go about them in wrong ways but can still be considered redeemable they go to Revendreth.
Unfortunately, as seen by the Forsaken souls in Bastion still being Undead and not Human again, this does not seem to be the case.
Yes.
Yes.
As far as I can tell: Retconned.
Oh I absolutely expect that.
Just as you never hear the end of it from me whenever Sylvanas turns out to have always been evil all along.
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Although interesting, I’m uncomfortable with using quest played as a demonstration during Blizzcon as lore. For the sake of our awesome discussion I will try to go back and watch it.
In the end it changes nothing, unless in the video it shows a soul that was destined for peaceful afterlife, is killed and resurrected, only to have his or her soul twisted by necromancy and then sent to the Maw eventually. If it shows those elements it would move our discussion forward.
The Forsaken, KotEB, and the Scourge have all been given second chances. What about everyone else in the Shadowlands? Where are their second chances? Lets say Arthas is miraculously resurrected and now he wants to be a good person. You’re saying the Arbiter should now go “oh yeah you’re a good boy now lets send you to a peaceful happy realm”. All souls aren’t given the luxury of a 2nd try, in this case what makes Arthas so special that the Arbiter gives him a redo oppose to anyone else in a hellish realm?
The only fair conclusion is to send the soul back to the place it was destined for before it was changed. In Sylvanas case she was destined for a peaceful realm but then she was snatch back by Arthas, had her soul twisted and violated, but in the Arbiter great wisdom they decide to send her to the Maw. Horrible judgement if you ask me.
I think you forget which side of the coin i’m on : )
I am saying that it shows souls that were twisted by necromancy to the point where they are Undead even in the afterlife, but still got sent to Bastion, and so it is disproven that souls that had been twisted by necromancy would be sent to the Maw unfairly.
Assuming this goes live, of course.
That’s what Revendreth and other realms like it are for.
If Arthas was given a second chance he would have to equally miraculously do so much good that it more than makes up for all the evil he did so the Arbiter wouldn’t send him to the Maw again. I do not think he is capable of that, so back to the Maw he would go.
You are correct. Most souls are not given a second chance in the mortal realms. Just people who have been brought back from the dead. That’s just how that goes, in this weird way that souls can be pulled out of the Shadowlands by necromancy or resurrection or revival and other such powers. That is not the Arbiter’s doing, though.
Seems that’s not how it works. Once again, see Forsaken in Bastion.
Because Sylvanas did not have her soul twisted and used her second chance to do evil things. Proper judgment, if you ask me.
Did I? You’re here arguing that you want High Elf Sylvanas to go back to Bastion and for the Banshee Queen to be erased.
What’s fair about sentencing a cursed soul to the Maw or any other realm they weren’t predestined for before becoming cursed? Maybe my fairness meter is broken, but I don’t think judging a soul based on what they become after they’ve had their souls twisted and violated is fair.
I think you’re missing the trees for the forest : ). Everyone doesn’t get to go to revendreth when they die, nor are they afforded a chance to redeem themselves.
It may work like that it may not work like that, I think only time will tell. Unless we are all hitting a brick wall together.
Yes, what Arthas changed Sylvanas into is evil. I’ve never denied that.
That wouldn’t be fair. And doesn’t happen. See Forsaken and Worgen souls in Bastion.
Not everyone has to go to Revendreth. Not everyone needs a second chance. Like the people who go to Bastion or Ardenweald.
Indeed. But if it does go live, then the Arbiter was not sending all people affected by necromancy to the Maw.
Nah. Sylvanas was always a terrible person. She was just pampered and spoiled in life and never had a reason to act on her terrible nature. She got lucky that she died before before anything set her off. And unlucky that Arthas knew necromancy. Arthas didn’t change her into something evil. He just have her a reason to act on evil impulses.