Demon hunters aren't OP, its the corruption that breaks us

Community General Discussion
162

Because that ability does not need to be refuted. A stunned DH is every bit as “made-of-paper” as any enhancement shaman. You want to easily dumpster a Havoc demon hunter? Coordinate stuns. Simple as that. Even a modicum of cooperation will result in a very dead demon hunter. Mages, meanwhile, can just decide they don’t feel like being stunned and blink right on out without even having to touch their trinket. Warlocks, paladins, warriors, DKs, druids, and most other classes are durable enough to survive being stun cycled as long as the rest of their team doesn’t abandon them. The DH, meanwhile, is most likely going to die even if a healer is pumping everything they’ve got into saving them. A stunned DH also won’t be using blade dance.

As for blade dance itself, you are greatly overestimating its worth. You get a 100% increased chance to dodge for one second. Sounds strong, right? Not when you consider the number of abilities in the game that just can’t be dodged. About the only thing it really completely screws over is warrior, but even they still have a few things that get through it.

Are you familiar with logs? My opinions are based solely on math. Havoc’s ability to perform well in solo content is a non-issue. Havoc isn’t top damage in any area; upper middle of the pack single-target, top five or six (but not top three) for AoE. They also aren’t overly represented high up on the PvP ladders, and random unranked BGs are totally irrelevant to start with.

Furthermore, your belief that mechanically simple classes should perform poorly would essentially entail condemning nearly every class and spec in the game to poor performance if ever put into practice. Have you considered this? You choose to target DH, but there are equally simple specs that output much higher numbers.

Another thing you are failing to take into consideration is APM. The number of buttons you have available to you does not necessarily dictate APM. Warlocks and mages, two of the classes with the lowest APM, are also two of the highest performing on single target. The latter is also generally in the top two for AoE. Frost DK is another example of a very simple class (even more so than DH I feel, though my opinion may be skewed by years of playing a DK) with relatively high APM. Should it have its performance curtailed because of its simplicity?

1 Like
163

Ah of course, its not strong because it doesn’t dodge every single thing in the game.
fel rushes for dps

164

That’s some nice exaggeration you have going on there. Perhaps you should consider being less salty and coming back with actual evidence to back the numerous claims you’ve made across these threads.

165

Sigh.

Hunters are paper in stuns. Rogues are paper in stuns. Priests are papers in stuns. Shamans are papers in stuns. Monks are paper in stuns. Mages are papers in stun. What’s the point of your argument?

Thank you for proving that you have no idea whatsoever of what you’re talking about. Mages haven’t been able to blink stuns ever since Shimmer was introduced in the game, and guess what, every mage uses Shimmer.

A stunned DH won’t be using blade dance; but a good DH would be getting stunned less, cause you can dodge the stun with blade dance!

Name another ability, on a 6-9s cd, that does amazing ST, AOE, and has 100% chance to dodge a good amount of abilities. Name an ability that comes somewhat close to it.

Go look at the 2v2 ladders. Also DH is still in the upper echelon in terms of dmg, which is amazing given how little thought it actually requires to perform well.

Completely useless argument. If every class is as easy as DH, then per your argument everyone should be performing the same. But you said yourself that DH is performing in the upper part of dps classes.

Nobody said that mechanically simple classes couldn’t perform well. I’m saying that classes that are more mechanically challenging should be rewarded more heavily. A project manager gets paid more than a project engineer. A working foreman gets paid more than a journeyman. You do more, you should get more, but that is not the case with DHs.

APM is such a stupid argument for WoW. 1st global cooldown. 2nd, GCD changes. The developers purposely made the game slower. Also, I could be wrong here, but no classes minus fire mages have abilities to press off gcd. So no class requires high APM. Pressing 1,2,3 and sometimes 4 every 45s is not high apm or big brain plays.

Mage/warlock outdpsing ur DH in aoe? Good. Other than fel barrage, you’re not changing your rotation to aoe, so why should you be rewarded ?

1 Like
166

You uh… you do realize that players generally make that assumption and simply refer to shimmer as being another blink instead of feeling the need to go into detail, yes? Being intentionally obtuse doesn’t help anyone.

The point of the stun argument is that demon hunters are more vulnerable to being killed by stuns than most other classes. Any PvPer with a decent rating will be able to verify this information. Killing them is ludicrously easy with just a little coordination. As for using blade dance to avoid being stunned? It works on some stuns, not others. In any case, it isn’t intended to be used as a defensive cooldown. It’s also unlikely that you will be able to predict the exact moment your opponent decides to stun you.

2v2s are irrelevant. Only 3s and up matter. 2v2s have never been balanced, just like Blizzard has not used them as a metric for anything since the changes leading to the aforementioned loss of relevance. And even then, the higher you go on the 2s ladder, the less demon hunters you actually see.

And uh… nobody said it was bad that mage and warlock can beat DH in AoE? Getting awfully salty there, buddy. What we’ve said is that you are ascribing traits to demon hunter that they do not possess, one of which being the implication that they are somehow the top spec for every aspect of the game. You might be able to make an argument for them being the top soloing spec, but they don’t top anywhere else.

Anyway, at this point it’s evident you are unwilling to accept any facts you are presented with. You will twist anything that is said to fit your own narrative, rendering a good faith debate on the subject functionally impossible. If you’re going to get angry, maybe take a step back and return when you are capable of engaging in civil discourse.

Oh, right. One final point: You are entitled to your belief that mechanically more complex classes should perform better. I even used to feel that way as well. For years I tried making that same point. I stopped feeling that way after Blizzard simplified everything to the point that the only thing in the game not completely smooth brained is sub rogue. Using that as a means of deciding who should have what potential doesn’t work when the company has made it abundantly clear that they want to make everything autopilot for everybody.

1 Like
167

Dude his points were good. Yours blowed hard.

168

You make claims about how simple everything is and then proceed to get everything wrong and cope by claiming you were trolling all along xd

169

So the fact that Blade Dance isn’t meant to be used as a defense cd, but is still PASSIVELY a good one, makes it totally balanced? Also, there’s a reason why I said good DHs will be able to dodge more stuns with blade dance. Good DHs. I guess we should give Monks FoF it’s stun back also right? Number 1 ST ability and number 1 aoe ability, it should also have amazing utility right.

Also, I agree that DHs are most vulnerable to being killed by while stunned, which is absolutely necessary because due to their durability, which you seem to think they don’t seem to have, there has to be a way for them to die.

Hey at least we sorta agree on something. Sub rogues. I miss old sub rogues.

And absolutely, mechanically more complex classes should perform better. This is how it should be, but I don’t deny that Blizzard over simplified almost every aspect of the game, which is a shame but it has been obvious that Blizzard has been and will always be catering to their cash banks, I mean casual playerbase. Back in the day you could tell the difference between a 2.2k player vs a 1600 player by their dps, but rotations are so simple now that it barely matters. You could also tell how better players are with their with how they use their utility… jk pruned.

No salt here, just confused as to why you’re defending DH so hard. You haven’t convinced anyone that DHs are not OP; your arguments are so weak.

How can I have a debate on a subject when you don’t know your facts? POST ON YOUR MAIN IF YOU DARE, maybe I might actually respect your opinion if you do any sort of high end pve or pvp content, preferably pvp, cause to me you don’t even seem to not know how classes work. Mages blinking out of stuns? Hasn’t happened since Shimmer was introduced. Also DH leaps when they press Meta, was not referring to Vengeance at all. Mobility being countered by a slow? My God. Nothing wrong with using the same rotation for ST and AOE? Just allow us to have an autoplay button already.

170

Mythic plus is a minigame. We’re talking about the actual end game, here.

171

Guess you didn’t see the second paragraph. Rogue is 5th most brought dps to mythic. For being so bad, a lot of guilds sure like bringing them to make it harder :crazy_face:

There are 268,921 DPS parses logged for Mythic Nyalotha at the time of writing this post. 27,402 of those are rogues. Assuming a 2-4-14 set up (pretty standard for MOST bosses), about 19,204 kills have been recorded. That means that each group is running, on average, about 1.43 rogues. For being so bad in Mythic Raiding, they sure find their way in, on average, every single group and then some. They don’t even bring a buff to justify a spot for being “bad” like a monk would.

Paladin, Priest, Death Knight, Monk, and Shaman all fall under ~1 per group in the dps role.

172

its true

buff death coil by at least 50% blizzard

173

Imagine saying DHs aren’t op when they’ve been on top for the whole expansion.

174

DHs wouldn’t be as strong as they are right now if they didn’t make most corruption scale with Haste. Furious Gaze x3 makes our chances to proc corruption effects very high. Even with this Havoc DH is outclassed in every endgame activity besides M+.

Raid: Rogue, Warrior, Mage, and Warlock tend to do more damage overall outside of Shad’har. Theres also a lot of top parses going to BM hunters. DH will always get a spot in a raid though for Darkness, Immunities, and Chaos Brand.

PvP: Havoc is always strong in Arena, but theres only 4 in the top 100 for the 3s Ladder. Only 8 when you go to the top 200, so I’d say its not that good outside of lower ratings. I’m not much of an Arena player, but thats not very good compared to Rogue, Mage, Monk, Priest, Warlock, and DK.

I personally feel that Havoc dodges nerfs so often just from the fact that its not as strong as people try to say it is and the fact that Vengeance is left in a state that is either terrible or just OK. Nerfs to Havoc without major buffs or an overhaul to Vengeance would make DH a very weak class overall. I doubt Blizzard wants to make a popular class weak no matter the spec.

175

Uhh, yeah… no. DH is over-powered. Just to list some things… Stealth detection, ST stun, AoE stun, Purge, ranged interrupt, AoE purge (kinda forced and excuseable), good AoE damage, good ST damage, Darkness, A taunt, a rotation 100% dodge for 1 sec ability, an actual personal cooldown, an immunity doubling as a massive speed buff, 30% leech during major cooldown buff (which from what I’ve seen in raid is possible to have a 50% uptime), access to one free slot of azerite traits (3x Furious Gaze, 1x Eyes of Rage, 1x Chaotic Transformation), and always having a guaranteed raid spot (unless there’s 2 DH’s vibing for that mystical one melee dps position), and always having a slight bit more leeway into M+ due to the sheer group utility and hard-to-mess-up rotation that lacks punishment that doubles both as ST and AoE for your action priority list. Not to mention you gain resources upon: Arcane Torrent, Purge, Interrupt, Chaos Strike/Annihilation (talent-dependent, but due to Eyes of Rage… yeah) with the latter also adding to your potential self-healing ceiling.

Edit: I must add that even pre-corruption, Havoc DH was relatively strong already due to the many defensive benefits it brings/has. Corruption’s only magnified the issue due to the comment above me mentioning that Corruption scales with haste (aka kek eyebeam and 4 Infinite Star procs kind situation that Blizzard Developers have incited, whether by accident or intention… I don’t like it.)

1 Like
176

I’m not sure if the corruptions have a set amount of PPM (Procs Per Minute). But assuming that there’s no real hard cap on them, then any class that simply has more actions per minute would probably better utilize it.

177

They ask for nerfs because of how averse Blizzard has always been about Buffs. Shamans have been in the dumpster for so long and they get 3% ?

This game just needs more balance passes in general and class changes should take place mid expansion if they are that bad.

178

DH’s are by far the easiest DPS class with an insane DPS output for 3 buttons…4 maybe.

179

Yes, the solution is to nerf the 1 class that can do everything instead of adding similar utility to every other class in the game. Do you even hear yourself?

180

People want some form of balance…people are tired of seeing a spec do well for one tier and then get nerfed into the ground while DHs manage to avoid nerfs for full xpacs. You cant have top tier utility, cleave damage, single target damage, pvp performance, M+ performance, Raid performance, solo performance and be brain dead easy to play. I play a havoc DH as my main alt and I get the appeal but there is a problem when your FOTM is really a FOTYears……the DHs on here are just trying to extend the ride, reality is most of them jump ship if the numbers go down.

181

then theres arcane mage
now THATS 3 buttons in rotation haha