Or just be get rid of it completely and improve damage scaling completely, make the secondary stats worth chasing, bring back Rupture, and bring back the emphasis of buffs/debuffs like Red Buff, Expose Armor, and Control is King that you can chase and not RNG for.
2 Likes
Removing RTB completely and buffing the spec baseline and other talents is the best possible outcome.
4 Likes
You do know that everyone is asking fro the removal of another skill. They are perfectly fine with removing things from rogues, but very rarely do they add things in response to said removal. They will take it and give you âNOTHINGâ in return.
3 Likes
I am going to be honest. There are too many dice types and I havenât played outlaw in 2 years and forgot them all. I wish there were just 3, they were buffed so that you only need one up at a time.
The classic 5 dice roll should be a garenteed 3 minute cooldown. Call this âall the bonesâ
We should have an automated roll option in our talents. And we should have the option to get more bones to roll in our talents, should we want them. We should also get a path without them.
One of those key 3 dice should apply a bleed to the target, one should be crit and one should make our finishers fantastic.
This is all things I wantâŚ. Because Iâm tipsy. Donât mind me⌠no worries I have said this thus Blizzard will never do it.
3 Likes
Very relatable. I made an effort to learn what each dice buff meant back in Legion, and then through the years, about 3 of the buffs had their effects adjusted, 2? were outright renamed, oneâs effect was flat out changedâŚlikeâŚI donât necessarily want the return of Banditâs, but dang man, thatâs still 5 buffs with 21 possible combinations and then if I want to play Fatebound I also have to play a counting game?
3 Likes
Mini games inside a rotation are wrong. I want to dodge fire not play a crossword puzzle just to unlock my dps 5 seconds before it dies.
2 Likes
You can not use RTB without weak auras. Big red flag.
4 Likes
If the devs were to remove Roll the Bones, they would need to do the following:
- Buff Restless Blades 1.0 â 2.0s Cooldown Reduction
- New talents for: Loaded Dice, Sleight of Hand, Count the Odds, Keep it Rolling
- Change the current Tier set to reflect the new changes
- Add something to fill in the damage loss we have
This would put Outlaw close enough to Combat. Atm, I donât think the devs want to give up Roll the Bones. I do think Outlaw is fun to play in its current iteration, just that it lacks in the talent department (check the top builds for Outlaw to see what I mean).
2 Likes
I like playing a rogue because I donât have the intelligence or dexterity in RL to be one. But it seems like Blizzard is demanding I have those things in order to play as a rogue.
Iâve been playing my shammy as of late. I put my cat on the keyboard and rub her tummy and get better dps then my rogue.
This is not fair I really did love playing as a rogue 
2 Likes
My take: Legion RTB was better because you could take [Slice and Dice] talent and still be damage positive in that talent tier.
Not the highest damage gain in the row, so not recommended, but not damage negative like versions post-Legion. Oh, and also, it removed RTB entirely from your bar. Yet, they kept at itâŚ
I was dumbfounded (but not really because of who weâre dealing with) that Slice and Dice complexity was pruned in this expansion before a hand was even raised on this terrible skill (Roll the Bones). Thereâs a few reasons I abandoned Retail again but I was happy with the treatment some specs got like Enhancement Shamanâs streamlining. Still hopeful Rogue gets a velvet glove too but not holding my breathâŚ
2 Likes
Honestly snake eyes in BFA was so much fun. It is a shame that it didnât last longâŚbecause people were having fun. Same with Fan the Hammer.
2 Likes
1: It doesnât need to be that extreme, thatâs the thing. They could move it to 1.25-1.35 sec per CP and that would normalize for True Bearingâs uptime at the moment.
2: Okay. Replace KiR with Celerity. Loaded dice could change to provide flat bonuses guaranteed during ADR (small, flat bonuses instead of the RNG from RTB). Sleight of hand could be replaced with an increase to mastery proc rate to 40 or 50%, maybe making mastery actually useful. CTO replaced with literally anything.
3: You mean normalize it with literally every other melee tier set since we are the only one with a secondary conditional effect 4 set? Stacks to 10, on removal it gives either ADR or a vanish charge. I mean, paladins get a whole 4 seconds of just flat infinite Holy Power to just use spenders. Ours being 3 conditions is just stupid as is.
4: Sounds like they could do their job and work on the class their were hired to tune then, instead of letting it rot after 4 waves of reworks and giving the class literally nothing but S&D as a passive in the last almost full year. Paladin gets 6 reworks and we see zero, the resource distribution is spread beyond favoritism now.
âYou think you do, but you donât.â
âDonât you guys have phones?â
âSlice and dice is a ritual all rogues must do.â
They historically have no clue what actually makes their games fun. Just because they donât want to doesnât mean that the correct options wouldnât be to flat remove it for the enjoyment of the game.
Itâs a game. Itâs supposed to be fun, not an actual gambling simulator on every ability. Some variance is fine, 9-12 layers of it is not.
3 Likes
Honestly, RTB would feel fine as a button to start combat. Randomly get 1-3 of Slice and Dice, Between the Eyes, and Recuperate (rebalanced to capture the current dice mechanicsâexactly six faces too). I get that means shifting skills around, butâŚ
Itâs what you said:
The variance is only on kickoff only with this kind of model (assuming combo point spend automatically extends maintenance buffs). Your âlossâ is exclusively on points (trivial) to restart the execution processes.
That said, some folks like that the entire priority structure rebalances around what their WeakAura tells them to press. Itâs a form of soft gatekeeping too, which Blizzard never removes.
> skill ceiling good
> raises skill floor
> pat self on back
why everybody mad?
2 Likes
I could live with it being a combat initiator, as long as it wasnât an upkeep spell, as they continue to force down our throats. In its current state, it is on GCD, takes energy, provides little benefit while creating negatives across the board when buffs arenât rolled, and causes almost 90 seconds of variance in resets during our opening crackshot windows, between the best and worst case scenarios.
I donât know of a single other class that has a spec which hitting a key rotation button that isnât damage, doesnât at least:
A: Incur zero GCD
B: Have zero resource cost
C: Cause an instant cast/no resource cost on the next hit
D: Immediately start their damage window
and/or
E: Provide some sort of bonus that makes up for the damage lost when hitting the global.
RTB feels like one of the worst buttons in the entire game to press, short of Killing Spree, and both of these abilities are loaded into the same spec. Every other DPS Iâve played makes every global feel at least somewhat meaningful, but every time RTB is pressed, it feels like a dead global and a nuisance.
I donât mind the skill ceiling, but there really is no skill involved in the amount of RNG the spec has. I use Hekili myself, as a mental load reliever, but I understand my rotation and ignore the addon constantly. My issue is that the skill expression basically shows as you not violently breaking your keyboard when RNG fails 14 times in a row. We donât gain a ton of damage from optimizing GCDs outside of the RNG variance, we just get kicked in the teeth slightly less when ADR falls off and can recover from rotational dead spots sooner.
I have no intention of stopping playing the spec, but itâs getting to a point that Iâve considered unsubbing a number of times this patch. Itâs demoralizing to be improving my rotation actively, being happy with the improvements Iâm making, but somehow losing damage in fights after 2 weeks of gear improvements. Like, my dungeon average has been climbing up as high as 3.5m and thatâs a stark improvement, but raid fights just see no gain in individual pulls, and I only see the numbers get better when RNG lines up to bless me. Itâs just not fun or conducive to actual improvement.
3 Likes
I am fully supportive of your experience. Just to clarify, skill ceiling is good. Blizzard often looks at that and raises the whole platform instead of just the ceiling. They then see the ceiling higher and think job well done. The mantra âeasy to pick upâ gets sacrificed on the altar of âdifficult to master.â
And yes, to tie effort to results is a problem when the spinning plates are uncontrolled. There is no recovery option for rolling buffs you donât actively need (only option is clairvoyance and trying to predict them with a well placed KiR, though often not practical because its too long cooldown is wasted without ideal rolling). Edit: * They are aware of this too which prompted the many, many iterations of bad luck protection built onto the skill, which are easily broken when gameplay fundamentals shift (Crackshot double to quintuple dipping on Restless Blades, as an example).
2 Likes
I certainly wouldnât miss it, maybe adding in a few abilities that are more deterministic would be a good approach.
3 Likes
Depends on who looks at it. âSkillâ is arguably more subjective than people think, and many would argue that Outlaw Rogue, in its current abomination, requires âmechanical skillâ instead of âapplicable skillâ.
The spec would play more consistently without Roll the Bones and its associated talents, but thereâs that tiny group waaaay in the back that shouts the loudest about how necessary Roll the Bones actually is using some vague and subjective argument about skill expression.
Outlaw Rogue needs a rework desperately; blown up from the core outward.
4 Likes
Parlay was better than RTB. Same with Cannon Ball Barrage.
Sub and Assassination have skill expressions without excessive RNG. But both specs are consistent with what they are designed to do when a player with skill takes it to the max.
Combat was considered an elite DPS spec in BC because it was the most consistent.
Consistency = Elite
3 Likes
We donât need to delete the spell name, we need to rewrite everything that spell does. Cause whoever thought that stacking RNG to determine all possible dmg was smoking something good and they need to share.
1 Like
I guess my comment for the changes needed were a little too extreme, but I do think after playing Cataclysm WoWâs Combat Rogue and Retail WoWâs Outlaw Rogue that Roll the Bones takes away the essentials of our kit and gives it back to us as a reward, albeit with more buffs now than what was taken from us. Is it fun? Yes. But long term, just has the highest highs (with current tier set) and the lowest lows. I can see why people who played rogue back then thinks highly of combat and after experience KIR with 6 buffs back-to-back for over 2mins, the class feels more complete having all the buffs at the same time than without. Iâd argue that we should have the buffs built back into our kit without having to press Roll the Bones with some tweaks.
This season probably has me changing opinions a lot after taking a 3-month break from WoW (iâm a bit indecisive) but I do think Outlaw would be in healthier state without Roll the Bones and have the class complexity come from rotation changes than rolling a 5d6 dice, having a chance to gain additional buffs based on our tier set, sleight of hand, and loaded dice, and proccing a 15% chance from Ambush or Sinister strike with Count the Odds.
3 Likes